St. Patrick kept the 7th Day Sabbath!

[listed]

Well, the invitation is always open.

Could you define "SDA argument"?

Sure straight up salvation by works of the law denying the application of Grace and the need of a saviour. Essentially self righteousness.

 

[listed]

Your reason for keeping the sabbath sounds tempting and awesome, thanks for sharing.

The reason some dont agree is because God has called us to Honor His word above His name. His word commands this generation to Honor His Son rather than His title as the creator, (who worked six days and rested on the seventh. )
God commands us to be believe in His Son. The doctrine of faith is all about belief in the person of Jesus Christ. He is also the creator.

Christ commanded baptism to those who believe in Him and joins His church.
Christ told us to take communuion to remember Him.

The significance of the transfiguration is more that some people want know about. Peter wanted to enshrine Moses for giving us the law and Isaiah cheif of all the prophets; who tells of things to come..... God stopped Peter's speech to say, This is my Son, Hear Him.
We need to invest in every word that Jesus spoke in the scriptures to know the truth that sets us free.
Jesus have given us two commandment to keep, and we should obey them faithfully.

(If you pledge to keep the sabbath is between you and God, we should not judge you...
Condemning the worship to God of others is a trick from the devil.)
CRIB

 

[listed]

The real bottom line is that I'm exposing the falsehood that Sunday proponents promote, namely, that Sabbath keeping was discarded right after Jesus' because the "New Covenant" was then in force. But, the evidence of the history of the first centuries shows the contrary, in that there is ample evidence of the early Christians keeping Sabbath, and very little evidence of Sunday keeping.

This simply isn't what Sunday proponents are trying to do. You have called us to defend our practice and attacked us with the immediacy of the first day of the resurrection to prove your practice is correct with behaviour and no commandment or requirement. In reality we have been dragged into talking about this early behaviour by those such as you. It is part of trying to show and demanding obligation to the law. It denies the NC.

 

[TruthWave7]

Sure straight up salvation by works of the law denying the application of Grace and the need of a saviour. Essentially self righteousness.

Jesus said, "If you love me, keep my commandments" Being pure and holy and confessing sin is biblical. SDA realize what sin cost the human race, and more important what it cost God to give his Son as a sacrifice for our sins, while Evangelicals want to downplay the importance of God's Holy Law, which then promotes lawlessness, otherwise known as "cheap grace".

 

[listed]

You love to play foolish little word games to divert attention from "elephant standing in the middle of the room", namely, that you know that there is no Commandment from God to keep the Sunday holy, except from church tradition, while there is the 4th Commandment written by the finger of God to
keep the Sabbath holy. Why do you refuse to obey what God clearly asks of you? What is it that is holding you back from simply obey what our loving God asks of you? In light of all that Jesus has done for you, can you not keep the Sabbath holy, and all the other 9 Commandments as well?

Now that is the kettle calling the pot black. Foolish little word games, oh my!!!!!!!!

So where is this mystery commandment in the NT to keep the sabbath? Why haven't you provided it for us after all this time? Maybe it isn't there.

 

[TruthWave7]

This simply isn't what Sunday proponents are trying to do. You have called us to defend our practice and attacked us with the immediacy of the first day of the resurrection to prove your practice is correct with behaviour and no commandment or requirement. In reality we have been dragged into talking about this early behaviour by those such as you. It is part of trying to show and demanding obligation to the law. It denies the NC.

If you are born again, then the Law of God that is written on your heart, that is the NC. But, in reality Evangelicals profess it, but don't deliver in practice, by obeying the Law written in their hearts.

 

[listed]

Jesus said, "If you love me, keep my commandments" Being pure and holy and confessing sin is biblical. SDA realize what sin cost the human race, and more important what it cost God to give his Son as a sacrifice for our sins, while Evangelicals want to downplay the importance of God's Holy Law, which then promotes lawlessness, otherwise known as "cheap grace".

Your quoting of John 14:15 isn't affective in light of 15:10. Jesus isn't referring to the ten commandments.

It seems to you that Evangelicals down play the commandments a nd promote sin because they aren't part of your church accepting your teaching. You're clearly and always have been personally attacking others and not discussing the doctrine. Your only goal is conversion to the SDA truth. It simply isn't Scriptural truth.

You have nothing more than worthless law by accessing grace (really mercy administered by Grace) when you violate the law making it inaffective. Isn't that the same thing as cheap grace?

 

[listed]

If you are born again, then the Law of God that is written on your heart, that is the NC. But, in reality Evangelicals profess it, but don't deliver in practice, by obeying the Law written in their hearts.

Yes the Law of God is indeed written on my heart. That simply isn't the covenant like God made with Israel at Sinai. Jeremiah said so.

 

[TruthWave7]

Your quoting of John 14:15 isn't affective in light of 15:10. Jesus isn't referring to the ten commandments.

It seems to you that Evangelicals down play the commandments a nd promote sin because they aren't part of your church accepting your teaching. You're clearly and always have been personally attacking others and not discussing the doctrine. Your only goal is conversion to the SDA truth. It simply isn't Scriptural truth.

You have nothing more than worthless law by accessing grace (really mercy administered by Grace) when you violate the law making it inaffective. Isn't that the same thing as cheap grace?

I'm not attacking people, I'm attacking error which is so common on this forum. Pray tell, what law is higher than the 10 Commandments? What law could Jesus be referring to when he says: "If you love me, keep my commandments", except the 10 Commandments?!

"Cheap Grace" is what we see commonly practiced in North American. For example, Evangelicals claim to love God, but even on Sunday you will millions watching the Super Bowl on Sunday, which if they really believe was a holy day, they should give that day reverence, but for the most Sunday is not even kept as a "sabbath", let alone the 7th day Sabbath. Do you really think that Jesus is filled with joy when he sees millions upon millions of professed Christians claiming to be Christians but don't live a life much different from the world.

 

[TruthWave7]

Yes the Law of God is indeed written on my heart. That simply isn't the covenant like God made with Israel at Sinai. Jeremiah said so.

OK. Let me ask you point blank: Please list that the laws that are now written in your heart?

 

[Cribstyl]

The real bottom line is that I'm exposing the falsehood that Sunday proponents promote, namely, that Sabbath keeping was discarded right after Jesus' because the "New Covenant" was then in force. But, the evidence of the history of the first centuries shows the contrary, in that there is ample evidence of the early Christians keeping Sabbath, and very little evidence of Sunday keeping.

The fact that sabbath is the sign of the Old Covenant is truth to explore and not a falsehood.
The fact that the scriptures say the blood of Jesus seals the New Covenant is truth to explore, it's not falsehood.

If sabbath was 'creation instituted' why would God later make it a sign between Himself and one nation? (got any text)
Arguing that the New Covenant is the Old Covenant written of the heart contradicts the scriptural evidence that; we're not under the law. (got any text)

Falsehood can be suspected if we cant find scriptures that gives understanding of our claims.


The evidence of the early church fathers proves that Sunday was not kept as a Sabbath by those who kept both days.
The questions of what days the church gather together is not an issue if Christs really lives in us.

 

[Cribstyl]

Yes the Law of God is indeed written on my heart. That simply isn't the covenant like God made with Israel at Sinai. Jeremiah said so.

The same Old Covenant with a new cover makes God look like a slick oil saleman. God said New Covenant, they say it's not a New Covenant.

 

[Cribstyl]

I'm not attacking people, I'm attacking error which is so common on this forum. Pray tell, what law is higher than the 10 Commandments? What law could Jesus be referring to when he says: "If you love me, keep my commandments", except the 10 Commandments?!

"Cheap Grace" is what we see commonly practiced in North American. For example, Evangelicals claim to love God, but even on Sunday you will millions watching the Super Bowl on Sunday, which if they really believe was a holy day, they should give that day reverence, but for the most Sunday is not even kept as a "sabbath", let alone the 7th day Sabbath. Do you really think that Jesus is filled with joy when he sees millions upon millions of professed Christians claiming to be Christians but don't live a life much different from the world.

Ever played baseball without a commentator? Then you know, an out is an out, whether someone announces it or not.
Romans 5 teach that sin was in the world before the law was given. The context tells us that death reigned for sin, from Adam to Moses, to those that did not break a direct commandment like Adam did.

Sin is sin, whether you have a law to announce an ungodly act or not.
The law has no power but to label sin. Sin gives the law the power to condemn. The law does not promise salvation.

The words within the New Covenant teach that the wages of sin is death. The cheap grace argument is falsehood it undersminds the preciousness of the blood ot Jesus.
You know that those who claim Christ as Lord strive to abstain from sin and live Holy Lives.

 

[Lysimachus]

The Ten Commandments: An Exact Transcript of the Original Tables in Heaven:​

We see in the sacred pages of Revelation that John the revelator saw the Testimony in the Temple of Heaven. As we will now see, this "Testimony" in heaven is an exact transcript of the Tables given to Moses at Sinai:

In Revelation 11:19 we read:

"And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament." (Revelation 11:19)​

Now let's compare Revelation 11:19 with 15:5:

"And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened." (Revelation 15:5)​

The word "temple" here in the Greek is "naos", which has allusion to the "inner shrine" of a temple, and the word for "tabernacle" here is "skene", which means the entire "sanctuary". This means that the "Temple OF the tabernacle OF the testimony" is referring directly to the "testimony" contained in the Most Holy Place of the Heavenly Sanctuary, where it is encased in the Ark of the Covenant.

Now let's employ "scripture with scripture" to decipher what this "testimony" in heaven actually is. The Lord told Moses the following concerning the Two Tables of Stone:

"And thou shalt put into the ark the testimony which I shall give thee." (Exodus 25:16)

"And thou shalt put the mercy seat above upon the ark; and in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give thee." (Exodus 25:21)​

As we can see, the Tables of Stone were called the "testimony". Further texts to colloborate this is established in the following:

"And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God." (Exodus 31:18 )

"And Moses turned, and went down from the mount, and the two tables of the testimony were in his hand: the tables were written on both their sides; on the one side and on the other were they written." (Exodus 32:15)

"And it came to pass, when Moses came down from mount Sinai with the two tables of testimony in Moses' hand, when he came down from the mount, that Moses wist not that the skin of his face shone while he talked with him." (Exodus 34:29)​

Once again, the Lord our God has given us enough information for which to clearly see that the Ten Commandments given to Moses were an exact transcript of the original testimony in heaven. This fact is further validated by the following point:

"Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel: (10) And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness. (11) And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink. (12) And the LORD said unto Moses, Come up to me into the mount, and be there: and I will give thee tables of stone [The original Hebrew can also be translated "OF the stone"] ,and a law, and commandments which I have written; that thou mayest teach them." (Exodus 24:9-12)​

This passage stresses that God gave His Ten Commandments FROM heaven. He gave Moses a COPY!

Note: It has been stated that it is "speculation" to determine what laws are found on the Testimony in heaven. With this I ask: If we are unaware what laws are written on Heaven's testimony, how can we be judged by them according to James 2? And if we do not know what laws are contained on these original tables, what is Christ mediating for? Which sins is He interceding for? Also what kind of God would not make them known to His created beings? The answer to this question is: He has made them known to us! He has given us enough information to see that the Tables given to Moses were a transcript of the Heavenly Original!

Notice the following written by a well-known evangelist in the mid 20th century by the name of Allen Walker:

There is a reason why the Ten Commandments were placed inside the ark, and it must not be overlooked. The ark was the most sacred article in the temple. It was placed in the holy of holies, and over it were cherubim (angels) of glory. (Hebrews 9:5.) It was from the mercy seat that mercy and grace were dispensed to the penitent transgressor. Of the angels at the ends of the ark it was written: “The cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be.” Exodus 25:20. These angels were to look down upon the ark, showing the respect which Heaven has for God’s law. God further said, “There I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims.” Verse 22. Above the ark was the throne of the Infinite, and inside the ark was the law of love containing the principles of the divine government. David prayed, “Thou that dwells between the cherubims, shine forth.” Psalm 80:1. God dwelt mystically “between the cherubims” in the earthly sanctuary; and there mercy had its “seat,” or source, and from there pardon was granted for the violation of the law of love in the ark.

All this constituted “figures” of the true sanctuary in heaven, and today “Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us.” Hebrews 9:24. There Jesus, as our High Priest, mediates for sinners. But what is sin? We have the answer in 1 John 3:4: “Sin is the transgression of the law.” Which law? We find the answer in Revelation 11:19: “The temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament.” There we find the real ark; there we find the real Priest; there we find the real mediation; and there we find “the ark of his testament” - the real Ten Commandments after which the earthly was patterned. If the law that was in the ark was abrogated at the cross, Christ is mediating for the transgression of an abrogated law!

These are irrefutable truths which escape the mind of the man who holds this sacred law in contempt. The very fact that the original of this law is in heaven, where Christ, our High Priest, mediates His blood for pardon, shows how impossible it would be for this law to be done away with. No stronger argument could be produced to prove that the Ten Commandments is not abolished. And today, just as in the earthly ark, it must read, “The seventh day is the Sabbath,” else it would not be a true pattern.

In the Old Testament sin is defined as doing “somewhat against any of the commandments of the Lord concerning things which ought not to be done” (Leviticus 4:27); and in the New Testament it is the same: “Sin is the transgression of the law.” (1 John 3:4.) In the Old Testament these commandments of the Lord were kept in the ark, in the holy of holies, where God dwelt. This ark was called “the ark of the testimony.” Years after the cross John was permitted to see the temple above, and he says there was seen in God’s temple “the ark of his testament.” So there it is today, defining sin; and there Jesus is, too, mediating His blood for the transgression of the law.

~ Source: Allen Walker, The Law and the Sabbath, pp. 60-61, [Hard-copy version: pages 119-120]​

It is important to realize that the New Testament employs itself as the antitype of Old Testament types. This means that the New Testament employs itself as the focal point in fulfillment of Old Testament patterns. Exodus 25:9-40 describes on how the Sanctuary materials were made after a pattern, and the Hebrew for pattern is "tabniyth", and it means a form, plan, figure, image--equivalent to "tupos" in the Greek.

In Hebrews 8:5 the sanctuary was an "example" and "shadow" of heavenly things. In Greek, the word for “example” is "hupadeigma", which means an "example, an imitation, a figure, a copy", and the word for shadow is "skia" means an "image cast by an object and representing the form of that object." These words are very similar to "tupos" and "antitupos".

So in essence, the Mosaic sanctuary was a pattern, a miniature model, a type of heavenly things. With this in mind, it becomes clear that the local and literal settings of the land of Palestine, Jerusalem, the Temple, and the Jews, were a type of the worldwide saints with the Heavenly Jerusalem being the capital of the saints. The saints of the New Covenant make up the spiritual Davidic Sanctuary, and the New Testament Saints come to God through the Priestly Ministry of Christ in the Heavenly Sanctuary--the Antitypical interpretation shows that the literal settings of Ancient Israel served as a Type, or a Pattern, of worldwide Spiritual Israel

With this in mind, to conclude that the laws written on the Tables of Stone given to Moses are somehow "different" from the laws engraved in Stone in heaven would be a perversion of the scriptures, for that would mean that the Ark of God's Testament in Heaven is truly not a copy of the original after all!

We must remember that the very reason why the "Ark of the Testament" is called the "Ark of the Testament" is because the "Testimony" is INSIDE the Ark! Otherwise it would be the "Ark of Nothing", or the "Ark of THIN AIR".

The words of Paul and James demonstrate, without a shadow of doubt, that the Ten Commandments are still binding in the New Covenant.

In Romans 7:7, Paul says:

"What shall we say then? is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet."​

Q) Let us raise the question: Where did Paul derive the phrase "Thou shalt not covet"?

Answer: The answer is obvious. Paul could only have derived it from the Moral Ten Commandment law, demonstrating that Paul himself recognized its perpetuity. Why, not even Christ ever quoted this commandment! He well knew that God's faithful people are to live in accordance to His Royal Precepts--the original Tables of Stone that dwell in the Ark of the Covenant in the Heavenly Sanctuary!

Paul continues in chapter 13:

"(8 ) Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. (9) For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. (10) Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law." (Romans 13:8-10)​

We see then how Paul repeats commandments for which Christ did not even stress. One might argue here that Paul is stressing these are the only important commandments out of the 10. But that argument does not work for Paul mentions the importance of honoring our father and mother in Ephesians 6:1-3, and does not in Romans 13.

 

[Lysimachus]

I would like to stress that true Adventists believe we are saved by faith alone, without the works of the law. But neither are we saved in disobedience to the law.

Without the works of the law means that the believer cannot offer his obedience to God in exchange for salvation, yet the sinner cannot be saved in rebellion and disobedience. All sin must be repented of, confessed, and forsaken before the believer is accepted in Christ. We must show our faith by our good works. Faith without works is dead (James 2:17,18,24,26) and whatsoever is not of faith is sin (Rom. 14:23).

All of God's commandments can only be kept by faith. No human being that makes it to heaven will have been saved by any works they did. Only by faith. Even at Sinai and after. This is precisely why the Old Covenant failed, they were attempting to keep God's commandments by works, not by faith.

This proves that whether the law is written on paper or not, it still has to be written in the heart. It was never God's intent that Israel would attain righteousness by works. It is the faith of Abraham that they had forgotten.

Not all laws need to be written on paper for them to be in our heart, but God wants us to read the Bible, and the Bible identifies sins we never knew about. We can only have written in our hearts what we know about, and that is limited. James 4:17 says to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin. But Hosea 4:6 also tells us that God will reject us if we willfully reject knowledge. Therefore, if we have the opportunity, and our hearts are right with God, we will take advantage that we have access to God's written word, and we will open it and we will read it to find out what more is sin so that we can put it out of our lives.

If we purposely avoid reading God's laws and finding out what sin is, then that reveals that our hearts are not really where they ought to be, and that we are not really too anxious to put sin out of our lives.

 

[Lysimachus]

An Assumption: That the Testimony in Heaven is "Different":

It is an assumption that just because the testimony or covenant is different, that the laws must read different. I would argue that a new covenant has nothing to do with the moral law changing. I believe it has to do with a change of location, from tables of stone to the tables of your heart. These Ten Commandments must be written in our hearts, and that is the New Covenant promise to all those who love Jesus and surrender their lives to Him. Once that happens, these laws will be manifested in the character in an untold number of ways--for which Christ greatly elaborated upon.

Are we to suggest that heaven's testimony reads "This is the Law of Love"? May I ask what that means?

What does "love" mean? and how does "love" translate? How is it "manifested"? There has to be a foundation. Picture Jesus the embodiment of love. On his right hand hangs Table 1 (love to God), and on his left hand hangs Table 2 (love to man). From these 2 principles of love, hang ALL the law and the prophets (Matt. 22:40). Or picture Jesus the "chief cornerstone", holding up the foundation (Tables of Stone), and the great principles of love, embodied in His Temple, the Church or God's people, built on that foundation.

The Ten Commandments, out of the 613 laws, were seared in solid stone--to impress an indelible reminder concerning their perpetual and eternal nature. All of Christ's laws were extensions, or magnifications rather (Isaiah 42:21) of this sacred law, for which Paul said was "holy", "just", and "good" (Rom. 7:12).

Keeping the commandments is going to be an automatic fruitage and revelation of love. Love is revealed and translated in how we treat one another, and how we treat God. When we break the Sabbath, we are showing disrespect to God. God put the Sabbath there as a test for Christians, just like he put the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil for Adam and Eve. Those who fail the test will exchange eternal life for eternal death.

But it doesn't end there. Jesus wants to go BEYOND the elementary basics of the Ten Commandments.

Jesus gave two examples of what it means to be living in the New Covenant:

Example 1:

"Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." (Matthew 5:21,22)​

As we can see, Jesus is in no way negating the law. In just 3 verses earlier, he said "till heaven and earth pass" not one jot or tittle will pass away from the law, then He goes on to give examples of what it means to live out that law in your life. He shows here that it is more than just "not killing". It also has to do with the intents of the heart---beyond not killing, don't even be ANGRY with your brother! Is it possible to kill your brother, yet not be angry with him? Of course not. The spirit never erases the letter. But if it is done only in letter, it means nothing for the soul.

Example 2:

"Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart." (Matthew 5:27,28 )​

As we can see, Jesus is not "negating" or "replacing" the "commandment of old" to not commit adultery. But He is AMPLIFYING it. Is it possible to commit adultery yet not lust after another woman? Of course not. Jesus is talking about our thoughts. These were principles that the Jewish nation had lost sight of. They didn't understand that God's law was to be kept from the heart. There were few men, however, that did. David's Psalms and Solomon's Proverb's are two examples.

"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people." (Jeremiah 31:31-33)​

As we can see, Israel broke the covenant because they relied on their own strength (see Exodus 24:7), their own human weakness to keep God's laws, but it was not the Lord working in and through them to give them strength (see Phil 2:13), because they kept it out of legalism. Not out of love. The New Covenant promise is where God will take those SAME moral laws (not new moral laws), and write them in their hearts.

Paul repeats the words of Jeremiah in Hebrews:

"For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people." (Hebrews 8:7-10)

"Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more." (Hebrews 10:15-17)​

We see how Israel broke their end of the covenant, their "agreement". We see then why it became absolutely necessary to make a new covenant. God never broke the covenant, but Israel did. The covenant became faulty, but God's law is always perfect (Psalm 19:7). Therefore, it was a new covenant that needed to be made, not a new law. The covenant became imperfect when Israel broke it, and this is why God said he found fault with "them" (Israel), not the law. This is why the old covenant had to "vanish", because it was based on legalism, and trying to attain the law of righteousness by works, and not by faith. (See Romans 9:31,32). New Covenant Christians keep God's commandments by faith, not by works. Works has to do with a wrong motive, by trying to earn a ticket to salvation, and save ourselves. It has nothing to do with a heart-felt motive where faith is exercised that works by love and purifies the soul. When those same laws are implanted in the heart, it springs forth in our soul into good fruit!

 

[listed]

The same Old Covenant with a new cover makes God look like a slick oil saleman. God said New Covenant, they say it's not a New Covenant.

 

[listed]

Ever played baseball without a commentator? Then you know, an out is an out, whether someone announces it or not.
Romans 5 teach that sin was in the world before the law was given. The context tells us that death reigned for sin, from Adam to Moses, to those that did not break a direct commandment like Adam did.

Sin is sin, whether you have a law to announce an ungodly act or not.
The law has no power but to label sin. Sin gives the law the power to condemn. The law does not promise salvation.

The words within the New Covenant teach that the wages of sin is death. The cheap grace argument is falsehood it undersminds the preciousness of the blood ot Jesus.
You know that those who claim Christ as Lord strive to abstain from sin and live Holy Lives.

True and the cheap grace stuff rightfully attacks pure calvinism and its practice with the fruit it bears. Yes there may be some back lash about calvinism. Straight up calvinism is not defendable with the full Scripture any more than the SDA stuff. No I'm not anti Baptist either.

 

[listed]

The Ten Commandments: An Exact Transcript of the Original Tables in Heaven:​

We see in the sacred pages of Revelation that John the revelator saw the Testimony in the Temple of Heaven. As we will now see, this "Testimony" in heaven is an exact transcript of the Tables given to Moses at Sinai:

In Revelation 11:19 we read:

"And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament." (Revelation 11:19)
​

Now let's compare Revelation 11:19 with 15:5:

"And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened." (Revelation 15:5)
​

The word "temple" here in the Greek is "naos", which has allusion to the "inner shrine" of a temple, and the word for "tabernacle" here is "skene", which means the entire "sanctuary". This means that the "Temple OF the tabernacle OF the testimony" is referring directly to the "testimony" contained in the Most Holy Place of the Heavenly Sanctuary, where it is encased in the Ark of the Covenant.

Now let's employ "scripture with scripture" to decipher what this "testimony" in heaven actually is. The Lord told Moses the following concerning the Two Tables of Stone:

"And thou shalt put into the ark the testimony which I shall give thee." (Exodus 25:16)

"And thou shalt put the mercy seat above upon the ark; and in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give thee." (Exodus 25:21)
​

As we can see, the Tables of Stone were called the "testimony". Further texts to colloborate this is established in the following:

"And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God." (Exodus 31:18 )

"And Moses turned, and went down from the mount, and the two tables of the testimony were in his hand: the tables were written on both their sides; on the one side and on the other were they written." (Exodus 32:15)

"And it came to pass, when Moses came down from mount Sinai with the two tables of testimony in Moses' hand, when he came down from the mount, that Moses wist not that the skin of his face shone while he talked with him." (Exodus 34:29)
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Once again, the Lord our God has given us enough information for which to clearly see that the Ten Commandments given to Moses were an exact transcript of the original testimony in heaven. This fact is further validated by the following point:

"Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel: (10) And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness. (11) And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink. (12) And the LORD said unto Moses, Come up to me into the mount, and be there: and I will give thee tables of stone [The original Hebrew can also be translated "OF the stone"] ,and a law, and commandments which I have written; that thou mayest teach them." (Exodus 24:9-12)
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This passage stresses that God gave His Ten Commandments FROM heaven. He gave Moses a COPY!

Note: It has been stated that it is "speculation" to determine what laws are found on the Testimony in heaven. With this I ask: If we are unaware what laws are written on Heaven's testimony, how can we be judged by them according to James 2? And if we do not know what laws are contained on these original tables, what is Christ mediating for? Which sins is He interceding for? Also what kind of God would not make them known to His created beings? The answer to this question is: He has made them known to us! He has given us enough information to see that the Tables given to Moses were a transcript of the Heavenly Original!

Notice the following written by a well-known evangelist in the mid 20th century by the name of Allen Walker:

There is a reason why the Ten Commandments were placed inside the ark, and it must not be overlooked. The ark was the most sacred article in the temple. It was placed in the holy of holies, and over it were cherubim (angels) of glory. (Hebrews 9:5.) It was from the mercy seat that mercy and grace were dispensed to the penitent transgressor. Of the angels at the ends of the ark it was written: “The cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be.” Exodus 25:20. These angels were to look down upon the ark, showing the respect which Heaven has for God’s law. God further said, “There I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims.” Verse 22. Above the ark was the throne of the Infinite, and inside the ark was the law of love containing the principles of the divine government. David prayed, “Thou that dwells between the cherubims, shine forth.” Psalm 80:1. God dwelt mystically “between the cherubims” in the earthly sanctuary; and there mercy had its “seat,” or source, and from there pardon was granted for the violation of the law of love in the ark.

All this constituted “figures” of the true sanctuary in heaven, and today “Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us.” Hebrews 9:24. There Jesus, as our High Priest, mediates for sinners. But what is sin? We have the answer in 1 John 3:4: “Sin is the transgression of the law.” Which law? We find the answer in Revelation 11:19: “The temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament.” There we find the real ark; there we find the real Priest; there we find the real mediation; and there we find “the ark of his testament” - the real Ten Commandments after which the earthly was patterned. If the law that was in the ark was abrogated at the cross, Christ is mediating for the transgression of an abrogated law!

These are irrefutable truths which escape the mind of the man who holds this sacred law in contempt. The very fact that the original of this law is in heaven, where Christ, our High Priest, mediates His blood for pardon, shows how impossible it would be for this law to be done away with. No stronger argument could be produced to prove that the Ten Commandments is not abolished. And today, just as in the earthly ark, it must read, “The seventh day is the Sabbath,” else it would not be a true pattern.

In the Old Testament sin is defined as doing “somewhat against any of the commandments of the Lord concerning things which ought not to be done” (Leviticus 4:27); and in the New Testament it is the same: “Sin is the transgression of the law.” (1 John 3:4.) In the Old Testament these commandments of the Lord were kept in the ark, in the holy of holies, where God dwelt. This ark was called “the ark of the testimony.” Years after the cross John was permitted to see the temple above, and he says there was seen in God’s temple “the ark of his testament.” So there it is today, defining sin; and there Jesus is, too, mediating His blood for the transgression of the law.

~ Source: Allen Walker, The Law and the Sabbath, pp. 60-61, [Hard-copy version: pages 119-120]
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It is important to realize that the New Testament employs itself as the antitype of Old Testament types. This means that the New Testament employs itself as the focal point in fulfillment of Old Testament patterns. Exodus 25:9-40 describes on how the Sanctuary materials were made after a pattern, and the Hebrew for pattern is "tabniyth", and it means a form, plan, figure, image--equivalent to "tupos" in the Greek.

In Hebrews 8:5 the sanctuary was an "example" and "shadow" of heavenly things. In Greek, the word for “example” is "hupadeigma", which means an "example, an imitation, a figure, a copy", and the word for shadow is "skia" means an "image cast by an object and representing the form of that object." These words are very similar to "tupos" and "antitupos".

So in essence, the Mosaic sanctuary was a pattern, a miniature model, a type of heavenly things. With this in mind, it becomes clear that the local and literal settings of the land of Palestine, Jerusalem, the Temple, and the Jews, were a type of the worldwide saints with the Heavenly Jerusalem being the capital of the saints. The saints of the New Covenant make up the spiritual Davidic Sanctuary, and the New Testament Saints come to God through the Priestly Ministry of Christ in the Heavenly Sanctuary--the Antitypical interpretation shows that the literal settings of Ancient Israel served as a Type, or a Pattern, of worldwide Spiritual Israel

With this in mind, to conclude that the laws written on the Tables of Stone given to Moses are somehow "different" from the laws engraved in Stone in heaven would be a perversion of the scriptures, for that would mean that the Ark of God's Testament in Heaven is truly not a copy of the original after all!

We must remember that the very reason why the "Ark of the Testament" is called the "Ark of the Testament" is because the "Testimony" is INSIDE the Ark! Otherwise it would be the "Ark of Nothing", or the "Ark of THIN AIR".

The words of Paul and James demonstrate, without a shadow of doubt, that the Ten Commandments are still binding in the New Covenant.

In Romans 7:7, Paul says:

"What shall we say then? is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet."
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Q) Let us raise the question: Where did Paul derive the phrase "Thou shalt not covet"?

Answer: The answer is obvious. Paul could only have derived it from the Moral Ten Commandment law, demonstrating that Paul himself recognized its perpetuity. Why, not even Christ ever quoted this commandment! He well knew that God's faithful people are to live in accordance to His Royal Precepts--the original Tables of Stone that dwell in the Ark of the Covenant in the Heavenly Sanctuary!

Paul continues in chapter 13:

"(8 ) Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. (9) For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. (10) Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law." (Romans 13:8-10)
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We see then how Paul repeats commandments for which Christ did not even stress. One might argue here that Paul is stressing these are the only important commandments out of the 10. But that argument does not work for Paul mentions the importance of honoring our father and mother in Ephesians 6:1-3, and does not in Romans 13.

Surely you're suggesting that John didn't know the difference between the Ark and the Tabernacle.

John uses skēnōma which means tent and not coffin or wooden chest with kibōtos. It is the skēnōma that is opened and not the kibōtos.

 

[Lysimachus]

Surely you're suggesting that John didn't know the difference between the Ark and the Tabernacle.

John uses skēnōma which means tent and not coffin or wooden chest with kibōtos. It is the skēnōma that is opened and not the kibōtos.

I never said the Ark was opened. Or perhaps I misunderstand you? What does this have to do with anything?

The point is, the Temple of God was opened in heaven, and in it was seen the Ark of His Testament. Just what it says.