Judaism: culture, customs, traditions, rituals and festivals

[GuardianShua]

Judaism
Christianity has its roots in Judaism. We drink from the same well the Patriarchs dug. Judaic Christianity is not about sharing the same culture, customs, traditions and rituals; it is about the belief in the same God and keeping His commands. And for Christians that would also include the belief in the Messiah Yahshua.

What are your thoughts about these scriptures below? If Messianic and Orthodox Jews can not justify keeping the Holidays, in light of what is written, then perhaps they shouldn't.

Psalm 40:6
Sacrifice and offering you did not desire— but a body you have prepared for me — burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not require.

Psalm 51:16
You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it; you do not take pleasure in burnt offerings.

Proverbs 21:3
To do what is right and just is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice.

Isaiah 1:11
“The multitude of your sacrifices— what are they to me?” says the LORD. “I have more than enough of burnt offerings, of rams and the fat of fattened animals; I have no pleasure in the blood of bulls and lambs and goats.

Isaiah 1:14
Your New Moon feasts and your appointed festivals I hate with all my being. They have become a burden to me; I am weary of bearing them.

Zephaniah 3:18
“I will remove from you all who mourn over the loss of your appointed festivals, which is a burden and reproach for you.

Lamentations 2:6
He has laid waste his dwelling like a garden; he has destroyed his place of meeting. The LORD has made Zion forget her appointed festivals and her Sabbaths; in his fierce anger he has spurned both king and priest.

Hosea 2:11
I will stop all her celebrations: her yearly festivals, her New Moons, her Sabbath days—all her appointed festivals.

Amos 5:21
“I hate, I despise your religious festivals; your assemblies are a stench to me.

 

[mishkan]

Judaism
Christianity has its roots in Judaism. We drink from the same well the Patriarchs dug. Judaic Christianity is not about sharing the same culture, customs, traditions and rituals; it is about the belief in the same God and keeping His commands. And for Christians that would also include the belief in the Messiah Yahshua.

I'm not so sure about divorcing culture from theology. I think they go together in many ways.

What are your thoughts about these scriptures below?

I think they all address the common problems of hypocrisy and legalism. Exactly the same as almost all of Yeshua's conversations with the religious leaders of his day.

The mentioned festivals and events are all commandments of God, and are therefore Good Things. But when one approaches them as if they were rabbit's feet, a way to win brownie points with God, then they no longer serve their intended purpose.

The same goes for circumcision. Circumcision as a careful, deliberate step towards a life of deeper observance is fine. But anyone who thinks surgery is going to merit them a place with God is way off the mark.

 

[GuardianShua]

I'm not so sure about divorcing culture from theology. I think they go together in many ways.


I think they all address the common problems of hypocrisy and legalism. Exactly the same as almost all of Yeshua's conversations with the religious leaders of his day.

The mentioned festivals and events are all commandments of God, and are therefore Good Things. But when one approaches them as if they were rabbit's feet, a way to win brownie points with God, then they no longer serve their intended purpose.

The same goes for circumcision. Circumcision as a careful, deliberate step towards a life of deeper observance is fine. But anyone who thinks surgery is going to merit them a place with God is way off the mark.

What is the New Covenant?

Jeremiah 31:31
“The days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah.

Luke 22:20
In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.

1 Corinthians 11:25
In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.”

2 Corinthians 3:6
He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

2 Corinthians 3:7
[ The Greater Glory of the New Covenant ] Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was,...

Hebrews 8:1
The High Priest of a New Covenant
1 Now the main point of what we are saying is this: We do have such a high priest, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, 2 and who serves in the sanctuary, the true tabernacle set up by the Lord, not by a mere human being.
3 Every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices, and so it was necessary for this one also to have something to offer. 4 If he were on earth, he would not be a priest, for there are already priests who offer the gifts prescribed by the law. 5 They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: “See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.”[a] 6 But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.

7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8 But God found fault with the people and said:

“The days are coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
9 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
and I turned away from them,
declares the Lord.


Hebrews 8:6
But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.

Hebrews 8:8-13
But God found fault with the people and said : “The days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah.
13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

Hebrews 9:15
For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

Hebrews 12:24
to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.



Zechariah 11
Three Shepherds
4 This is what the LORD my God says: “Shepherd the flock marked for slaughter. 5 Their buyers slaughter them and go unpunished. Those who sell them say, ‘Praise the LORD, I am rich!’ Their own shepherds do not spare them. 6 For I will no longer have pity on the people of the land,” declares the LORD. “I will give everyone into the hands of their neighbors and their king. They will devastate the land, and I will not rescue anyone from their hands.”
7 So I shepherded the flock marked for slaughter, particularly the oppressed of the flock. Then I took two staffs and called one Favor and the other Union, and I shepherded the flock. 8 In one month I got rid of the three shepherds.
The Sanhedrin, Sadducees and Pharisees. The Three Shepherds.
The flock detested me, and I grew weary of them 9 and said, “I will not be your shepherd. Let the dying die, and the perishing perish. Let those who are left eat one another’s flesh.”

10 Then I took my staff called Favor and broke it, revoking the covenant I had made with all the nations. 11 It was revoked on that day, and so the oppressed of the flock who were watching me knew it was the word of the LORD.

12 I told them, “If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it.” So they paid me thirty pieces of silver.

13 And the LORD said to me, “Throw it to the potter”—the handsome price at which they valued me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them to the potter at the house of the LORD.

14 Then I broke my second staff called Union, breaking the family bond between Judah [faithful] and Israel [nation].

 

[GuardianShua]

The barrier to winning converts to Judaism had been the Commandments of Moses, they govern the Sabbath feasts and sacrifices. Moses Commandments were the middle wall partition.

Here is my translation of Ephesians 2:14-19. 14 For he is our peace, who has made us one, and has broken down the middle wall partition, 15. By abolishing with his flesh the hostility of the commandment laws of ordinances; for to create in himself and us, one new man, making peace; 16. thereby reconciling us to God in one body through the cross, having slain the hostility. 17. He came to those near and far preaching peace. 18. For through him we both have access to one Spirit, the Father. 19. Therefore you are not alienated foreigners, but citizens with the holy household of God.

The Sabbath feasts and sacrifices were not given as Commandments of God, but God commanded (ordered) Moses to speak to the Israelites about them. That is why God, in Isaiah 1:11-14 it says, "Who has asked this of you," The Sabbath feasts and sacrifices were given as part of the covenant, for which the Israelites continually broke.

As a result of that, God says in Zephaniah 3:18, "the sorrows for the appointed feast I will remove from you; they are a burden and a reproach to you."

The Sabbath feasts and sacrifices were given as a command of Moses. I am able to say with certainty that there is to be no more animal sacrifices for sins.

According to 2 Chronicles 8:12-13; 12 On the altar of the LORD that he had built in front of the portico, Solomon sacrificed burnt offerings to the LORD, 13 according to the daily requirement for offerings commanded by Moses for Sabbaths, New Moons and the three annual feasts—the Feast of Unleavened Bread, the Feast of Weeks and the Feast of Tabernacles.

Hebrews 7:27
Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself.

 

[GuardianShua]

Deuteronomy 31
24 After Moses finished writing in a book the words of this law from beginning to end, 25 he gave this command to the Levites who carried the ark of the covenant of the LORD: 26 “Take this Book of the Law and place it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God. There it will remain as a witness against you.



Exodus 25:16
Then put in the ark the tablets of the covenant law, which I will give you.



Joshua 8:32
There, in the presence of the Israelites, Joshua wrote on stones a copy of the laws of Moses.



2 Corinthians 3:7
Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory,...

The laws of Moses were copied onto stone by Joshua. It was the laws of Moses that contained the curses that brought death.

2 Corinthians 3:6
He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

The book of Laws Moses wrote was placed beside the Ark as a witness against the people.

2 Corinthians 3:7
Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory,...

Joshua 8:32, Joshua also copied the laws of Moses onto stone. This has been a cause for many to think the Commands of God has been done away with. Yahshua and the disciples taught the keeping of Yahwah's Commandments.

 

[GuardianShua]

Since the days of Cain and Abel, animals and grain has been offered as good will gestures to God. God has never asked for those things for Himself; that is why in Isaiah 1:12 He says, "who has asked this of you"...

Isaiah 1 11 “The multitude of your sacrifices— what are they to me?” says the LORD.
“I have more than enough of burnt offerings, of rams and the fat of fattened animals; I have no pleasure in the blood of bulls and lambs and goats.
12 When you come to appear before me, who has asked this of you,...

Now if God had commanded animal sacrifice and grain offerings, He would not be asking that question.

 

[GuardianShua]

I'm not so sure about divorcing culture from theology. I think they go together in many ways.


I think they all address the common problems of hypocrisy and legalism. Exactly the same as almost all of Yeshua's conversations with the religious leaders of his day.

The mentioned festivals and events are all commandments of God, and are therefore Good Things. But when one approaches them as if they were rabbit's feet, a way to win brownie points with God, then they no longer serve their intended purpose.

The same goes for circumcision. Circumcision as a careful, deliberate step towards a life of deeper observance is fine. But anyone who thinks surgery is going to merit them a place with God is way off the mark.

If the festvals are commands of God, then why does He ask the question" who has asked this of you",... Another thing is, where in scripture does He restore the feast. I can not find any such scripture.

 

[mishkan]

What is the New Covenant?

The NC is, according to the context of Jeremiah 31, the restoration of Israel--what we might call the Messianic Era, or the Millennial Kingdom.

It is the time of complete restoration, when Israel is regathered, all the nations serve the King of Israel, and everyone on the planet has perfect knowledge of God and his ways.

I recommend reading chapters 31-33 of Jeremiah as a unit in order to get a fuller picture of what that period will be like.

References in the Messianic Letters have to do with the early messengers of the Kingdom announcing that the King is coming. They do not indicate the belief that the Kingdom has been fully implemented--it clearly has not, if one actually reads the words of Jeremiah, the source of the concept.

 

[GuardianShua]

The NC is, according to the context of Jeremiah 31, the restoration of Israel--what we might call the Messianic Era, or the Millennial Kingdom.

It is the time of complete restoration, when Israel is regathered, all the nations serve the King of Israel, and everyone on the planet has perfect knowledge of God and his ways.

I recommend reading chapters 31-33 of Jeremiah as a unit in order to get a fuller picture of what that period will be like.

References in the Messianic Letters have to do with the early messengers of the Kingdom announcing that the King is coming. They do not indicate the belief that the Kingdom has been fully implemented--it clearly has not, if one actually reads the words of Jeremiah, the source of the concept.

Jeremiah 33
14 “‘The days are coming,’ declares the LORD, ‘when I will fulfill the good promise I made to the people of Israel and Judah.

15 “‘In those days and at that time
I will make a righteous Branch sprout from David’s line; [Yahshua is the Son of David]
he will do what is just and right in the land.
16 In those days Judah will be saved
and Jerusalem will live in safety.
This is the name by which it will be called:
The LORD Our Righteous Savior.’

17 For this is what the LORD says: ‘David will never fail to have a man to sit on the throne of Israel, 18 nor will the Levitical priests ever fail to have a man to stand before me continually to offer burnt offerings, to burn grain offerings and to present sacrifices.’” [Yahshua is in heaven standing before Yahwah; not earth.]

19 The word of the LORD came to Jeremiah: 20 “This is what the LORD says: ‘If you can break my covenant with the day and my covenant with the night, so that day and night no longer come at their appointed time, 21 then my covenant with David my servant—and my covenant with the Levites who are priests ministering before me—can be broken and David will no longer have a descendant to reign on his throne. 22 I will make the descendants of David my servant and the Levites who minister before me as countless as the stars in the sky and as measureless as the sand on the seashore.’”

There is no mention of the feast being restored on Earth. There is only mention of sacrifices and offering being made by Yahshua in heaven.

Hebrews 2:17
For this reason he had to be made like them, fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.

Hebrews 3:1
[ Jesus Greater Than Moses ] Therefore, holy brothers and sisters, who share in the heavenly calling, fix your thoughts on Jesus, whom we acknowledge as our apostle and high priest.

Hebrews 4:14
[ Jesus the Great High Priest ] Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has ascended into heaven, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess.

Hebrews 4:15
For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin.

Hebrews 5:1
Every high priest is selected from among the people and is appointed to represent the people in matters related to God, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins.

Hebrews 5:5
In the same way, Christ did not take on himself the glory of becoming a high priest. But God said to him, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father.”

Hebrews 5:10
and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.

Hebrews 6:20
where our forerunner, Jesus, has entered on our behalf. He has become a high priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek.

Hebrews 7:26
Such a high priest truly meets our need—one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens.

Hebrews 7:27
Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself.

Hebrews 7:28
For the law appoints as high priests men in all their weakness; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever.

Hebrews 8:1
[ The High Priest of a New Covenant ] Now the main point of what we are saying is this: We do have such a high priest, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven,

Hebrews 8:3
Every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices, and so it was necessary for this one also to have something to offer.

Hebrews 9:7
But only the high priest entered the inner room, and that only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance.

Hebrews 9:11
[ The Blood of Christ ] But when Christ came as high priest of the good things that are now already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not made with human hands, that is to say, is not a part of this creation.

Hebrews 9:25
Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own.

 

[mishkan]

Jeremiah 33
14 “‘The days are coming,’ declares the LORD, ‘when I will fulfill the good promise I made to the people of Israel and Judah.

15 “‘In those days and at that time
I will make a righteous Branch sprout from David’s line; [Yahshua is the Son of David]

Indeed. I believe him to be the Messianic Heir of the Davidic dynasty.

he will do what is just and right in the land.
16 In those days Judah will be saved
and Jerusalem will live in safety.
This is the name by which it will be called:
The LORD Our Righteous Savior.’

17 For this is what the LORD says: ‘David will never fail to have a man to sit on the throne of Israel, 18 nor will the Levitical priests ever fail to have a man to stand before me continually to offer burnt offerings, to burn grain offerings and to present sacrifices.’” [Yahshua is in heaven standing before Yahwah; not earth.]

"Yeshua is in Heaven"... An interesting assertion. And I well understand why you would say it. Most people want to read the letter to the Hebrews as though it were all meant to be taken literally. I disagree with that approach. I think the letter only makes sense if it is read as apocalyptic midrash--theological statements and scenarios that were never meant to be taken in a woodenly literal manner.

As I see it, "Yeshua is in Heaven" is exactly in the same class of statement as "God wears tefillin". It is a way to comfort the faithful by depicting God in a manner that makes him more relatable, or solves a theological problem. In this case, the whole scenario of a heavenly priest addresses the problem created by the lack of a functioning Temple and Priesthood. But these passages are not intended to be regarded as statements of scientific fact.

Hebrews is, in my estimation, one fanciful midrash after another, affirming the supremacy of Yeshua through a variety of comparisons and metaphors, none of which are to be taken in a literal way.

The prophet, on the other hand, speaks quite plainly--Israel is to be regathered and restored, living under the guidance of the Davidic heir, with a fully functional priesthood offering sacrifices to God. It is Levi who "stands before [YHWH]". Any other interpretation makes both the Torah and Jeremiah a lie.

19 The word of the LORD came to Jeremiah: 20 “This is what the LORD says: ‘If you can break my covenant with the day and my covenant with the night, so that day and night no longer come at their appointed time, 21 then my covenant with David my servant—and my covenant with the Levites who are priests ministering before me—can be broken and David will no longer have a descendant to reign on his throne. 22 I will make the descendants of David my servant and the Levites who minister before me as countless as the stars in the sky and as measureless as the sand on the seashore.’”

This is still about Levi, not Yeshua.

There is no mention of the feast being restored on Earth. There is only mention of sacrifices and offering being made by Yahshua in heaven.

Not in this context. Zechariah speaks about the festival of Sukkot continuing in the end times. Yeshua said that he would celebrate the Passover again in the Kingdom. I think the evidence indicates that the festivals will continue.

Hebrews 2:17
For this reason he had to be made like them, fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.

Right.

This is what I was getting at the other day. Yeshua is no literal High Priest. Wrong bloodline--Hebrews says so (7:13,14). The whole idea of a change in priesthood is a fanciful midrash based on pushing together the texts of Bereisheet/Genesis 14 and Tehillim/Psalms 110. There is no historical evidence, Biblical or otherwise, that there was ever any such thing as a priestly order called "Melchizedek". We can speculate, but that is all.

And Yeshua is no literal Temple sacrifice. Yes, he gave his life on our behalf. But he was the wrong species to be literally a Temple sacrifice. Human sacrifice is an abomination to God. All talk of Yeshua as "high priest", "lamb" or "sacrifice" is metaphor, based on comparing him to those things.

I realize this is a radical departure from most interpretations of Hebrews, but I believe it makes perfect sense in light of other Jewish writings of the period. From a purely literary perspective, the letter is a sermonic piece of rhetoric, not a history book. It has more in common with Revelation than with the Gospels.

So, the line of thinking that goes from Jeremiah to Hebrews, and attempts to replace Jeremiah's Levitical priesthood with Yeshua, is misguided, in my view. It fails to account for a couple of very important details:

• It violates the plain statements of Jeremiah. The prophet was not relating some deep, dark, mystical vision. He clearly describes a time when Israel is restored from diaspora, and a revived Davidic heir rules the planet from Jerusalem.

• It fails to take into account the literary nature of Hebrews, which draws from rabbinic midrash--a genre that did not exist prior to the Babylonian exile.

The Bible is about God intervening and manifesting on Earth, in the affairs of men... not the other way around. We need to address the Biblical texts according to their own genre, rather than reading Hebrews as though it were a modern newspaper.

Sorry if I got onto a bit of a rant, there. This matter of learning the background and literary nature of the Bible is one of my pet peeves (along with what I lovingly refer to as "bi-polar ecclesiology"--him who has ears to hear...).

 

[GuardianShua]

Indeed. I believe him to be the Messianic Heir of the Davidic dynasty.


"Yeshua is in Heaven"... An interesting assertion. And I well understand why you would say it. Most people want to read the letter to the Hebrews as though it were all meant to be taken literally. I disagree with that approach. I think the letter only makes sense if it is read as apocalyptic midrash--theological statements and scenarios that were never meant to be taken in a woodenly literal manner.

As I see it, "Yeshua is in Heaven" is exactly in the same class of statement as "God wears tefillin". It is a way to comfort the faithful by depicting God in a manner that makes him more relatable, or solves a theological problem. In this case, the whole scenario of a heavenly priest addresses the problem created by the lack of a functioning Temple and Priesthood. But these passages are not intended to be regarded as statements of scientific fact.

Hebrews is, in my estimation, one fanciful midrash after another, affirming the supremacy of Yeshua through a variety of comparisons and metaphors, none of which are to be taken in a literal way.

The prophet, on the other hand, speaks quite plainly--Israel is to be regathered and restored, living under the guidance of the Davidic heir, with a fully functional priesthood offering sacrifices to God. It is Levi who "stands before [YHWH]". Any other interpretation makes both the Torah and Jeremiah a lie.


This is still about Levi, not Yeshua.


Not in this context. Zechariah speaks about the festival of Sukkot continuing in the end times. Yeshua said that he would celebrate the Passover again in the Kingdom. I think the evidence indicates that the festivals will continue.


Right.

This is what I was getting at the other day. Yeshua is no literal High Priest. Wrong bloodline--Hebrews says so (7:13,14). The whole idea of a change in priesthood is a fanciful midrash based on pushing together the texts of Bereisheet/Genesis 14 and Tehillim/Psalms 110. There is no historical evidence, Biblical or otherwise, that there was ever any such thing as a priestly order called "Melchizedek". We can speculate, but that is all.

And Yeshua is no literal Temple sacrifice. Yes, he gave his life on our behalf. But he was the wrong species to be literally a Temple sacrifice. Human sacrifice is an abomination to God. All talk of Yeshua as "high priest", "lamb" or "sacrifice" is metaphor, based on comparing him to those things.

I realize this is a radical departure from most interpretations of Hebrews, but I believe it makes perfect sense in light of other Jewish writings of the period. From a purely literary perspective, the letter is a sermonic piece of rhetoric, not a history book. It has more in common with Revelation than with the Gospels.

So, the line of thinking that goes from Jeremiah to Hebrews, and attempts to replace Jeremiah's Levitical priesthood with Yeshua, is misguided, in my view. It fails to account for a couple of very important details:

• It violates the plain statements of Jeremiah. The prophet was not relating some deep, dark, mystical vision. He clearly describes a time when Israel is restored from diaspora, and a revived Davidic heir rules the planet from Jerusalem.

• It fails to take into account the literary nature of Hebrews, which draws from rabbinic midrash--a genre that did not exist prior to the Babylonian exile.

The Bible is about God intervening and manifesting on Earth, in the affairs of men... not the other way around. We need to address the Biblical texts according to their own genre, rather than reading Hebrews as though it were a modern newspaper.

Sorry if I got onto a bit of a rant, there. This matter of learning the background and literary nature of the Bible is one of my pet peeves (along with what I lovingly refer to as "bi-polar ecclesiology"--him who has ears to hear...).

If we discount Yahshua as being a real person of the Davidic linage, and if we discount God's kingdom as being a real place, Then maybe you are right. By the way, there is no reason for a Gentile like Melchizedek to have not served God at that time, because the Levitical priesthood had not been established. Throughout history the Jewish people have been constantly in trouble with God. Why, because they never paid any attention to what God said through their prophets. And again, the levitical priesthood has been replaced according to the prophet and God. I fear that the Jewish people will find the wrath of God upon them again for not paying attention to what God said. You can not make a lie and call it the truth, God will not allow it.

 

[mishkan]

If we discount Yahshua as being a real person of the Davidic linage, and if we discount God's kingdom as being a real place, Then maybe you are right.

I'm not sure you're getting my point.

• Yes, Yeshua is a real person.
• Yes, Yeshua is of the line of David, and inherits the rights to the throne... of Israel.
• Yes, there is a very real Kingdom of God... in Israel.

What I regard as error is...

• The common notion that we go strum harps on clouds, and that is somehow "the Kingdom of God".
• That Yeshua somehow replaces the God-ordained and confirmed Levitical system.

By the way, there is no reason for a Gentile like Melchizedek to have not served God at that time, because the Levitical priesthood had not been established.

That there was A man named Melchizedek, who served as priest and king in Jerusalem, is not under dispute. But in order to recognize the non-literal application of this man's example to Yeshua requires an understanding of rabbinic study techniques.

For instance, the statement that Melchizedek had no parents, and no lineage. That is patently silly, if one takes it literally, and copious amounts of time and energy have been spent trying to justify the notion. But if you back up a bit, and realize the statement only means, "There is no record of lineage," then everything makes normal sense.

Throughout history the Jewish people have been constantly in trouble with God.

Indeed. The very fact that we are in dispersion demonstrates that.

Why, because they never paid any attention to what God said through their prophets.

Well... I think it's deeper than that. The bulk of Judaism does not pay attention to the Torah. The primary purpose of the prophets was to exhort the people to Torah observance, and to warn them of coming judgments. for disobedience.

And again, the levitical priesthood has been replaced according to the prophet and God.

According to what prophet?

I fear that the Jewish people will find the wrath of God upon them again for not paying attention to what God said. You can not make a lie and call it the truth, God will not allow it.

You lost me. I don't do well with random accusations.

 

[GuardianShua]

Originally Posted by GuardianShua
If we discount Yahshua as being a real person of the Davidic linage, and if we discount God's kingdom as being a real place, Then maybe you are right.
I'm not sure you're getting my point.

Yes, Yeshua is a real person.
Yes, Yeshua is of the line of David, and inherits the rights to the throne... of Israel.
Yes, there is a very real Kingdom of God... in Israel.
What I regard as error is...

The common notion that we go strum harps on clouds, and that is somehow "the Kingdom of God".
That Yeshua somehow replaces the God-ordained and confirmed Levitical system.

Originally Posted by GuardianShua
By the way, there is no reason for a Gentile like Melchizedek to have not served God at that time, because the Levitical priesthood had not been established.
That there was A man named Melchizedek, who served as priest and king in Jerusalem, is not under dispute. But in order to recognize the non-literal application of this man's example to Yeshua requires an understanding of rabbinic study techniques.

For instance, the statement that Melchizedek had no parents, and no lineage. That is patently silly, if one takes it literally, and copious amounts of time and energy have been spent trying to justify the notion. But if you back up a bit, and realize the statement only means, "There is no record of lineage," then everything makes normal sense.


Originally Posted by GuardianShua
Throughout history the Jewish people have been constantly in trouble with God.
Indeed. The very fact that we are in dispersion demonstrates that.


Originally Posted by GuardianShua
Why, because they never paid any attention to what God said through their prophets.
Well... I think it's deeper than that. The bulk of Judaism does not pay attention to the Torah. The primary purpose of the prophets was to exhort the people to Torah observance, and to warn them of coming judgments. for disobedience.


Originally Posted by GuardianShua
And again, the levitical priesthood has been replaced according to the prophet and God.
According to what prophet?


Originally Posted by GuardianShua
I fear that the Jewish people will find the wrath of God upon them again for not paying attention to what God said. You can not make a lie and call it the truth, God will not allow it.
You lost me. I don't do well with random accusations.
Zechariah 11:8
In one month I got rid of the three shepherds. The Sanhedrin, Sadducees and Pharisees. The Three Shepherds.
Speaking through the prophet, God Himself said he got rid of the Levitical priesthood. The Old Testament account of Melchizedek, and the New Testament account differ, because the New Testament is useing it as a parable for Yahshua.

 

[mishkan]

Zechariah 11:8
In one month I got rid of the three shepherds.

The Sanhedrin, Sadducees and Pharisees. The Three Shepherds.

Speaking through the prophet, God Himself said he got rid of the Levitical priesthood. The Old Testament account of Melchizedek, and the New Testament account differ, because the New Testament is useing it as a parable for Yahshua.

How do you figure those are the three shepherds? Why not the reigning king? What about the Essenes? You have arbitrarily selected three names, that might just as well be, "Larry, Moe, and Curly".

Still not seeing where you see the elimination of the Levitical priesthood. Jeremiah 33 goes out of its way to state that institution is as eternal as the throne of David.

As for Melchizedek, I'm not seeing any difference, since I don't regard them as really comparable. One is the narrative, while the other is a midrash based on the narrative. They aren't meant to have the same purpose.

 

[GuardianShua]

How do you figure those are the three shepherds? Why not the reigning king? What about the Essenes? You have arbitrarily selected three names, that might just as well be, "Larry, Moe, and Curly".

Still not seeing where you see the elimination of the Levitical priesthood. Jeremiah 33 goes out of its way to state that institution is as eternal as the throne of David. The eternal throne of David is in Heaven.

As for Melchizedek, I'm not seeing any difference, since I don't regard them as really comparable. One is the narrative, while the other is a midrash based on the narrative. They aren't meant to have the same purpose.

No one has pulled any rabbits out of the hat. The Sanhedrin, Sadducees and Pharisees were the three classes of priest in Christ day. Study your history. Lamentations 2:6
He has laid waste his dwelling like a garden; he has destroyed his place of meeting. The LORD has made Zion forget her appointed festivals and her Sabbaths; in his fierce anger he has spurned both king and priest.

Have you been reading all of my scriptural quotes? Are you behind in your sleep?

 

[mishkan]

No one has pulled any rabbits out of the hat. The Sanhedrin, Sadducees and Pharisees were the three classes of priest in Christ day. Study your history.

I've studied my history pretty thoroughly. And the Sanhedrin and the Pharisees had nothing to do with the Levitical priesthood in Yeshua's day. Where on earth did you get that idea?

Lamentations 2:6
He has laid waste his dwelling like a garden; he has destroyed his place of meeting. The LORD has made Zion forget her appointed festivals and her Sabbaths; in his fierce anger he has spurned both king and priest.​

Ummmmmm... you do realize this is talking about the desolation of Jerusalem, as Jeremiah watched his capital city be destroyed, and the people led away as slaves? At that point, the nation of Judah and the Temple in Jerusalem both ceased to exist.

Have you been reading all of my scriptural quotes? Are you behind in your sleep?

My sleep has been fine. Thanks for asking.

But if you want me to participate on your thread, you need to lay off the insults. I like you, and think you are a sincere guy with strong feelings on the topics that are discussed here. But be aware that I won't rubber stamp ideas that I think are not in alignment with a correct interpretation of Scripture.

I disagree with the principle of allegorizing prophetic texts, while ignoring the plain meaning. For instance, claiming, "The eternal throne of David is in Heaven" is just completely contrary to the whole theme of Jeremiah 31-33. The point of the passage is that, despite current circumstances (in Jeremiah's day), there will be a restoration of Israel, complete with a Davidic King on the throne and a Levitical priest sacrificing in a new Temple.

Jeremiah is not contrary to Pharisees, Sadducees, or the Sanhedrin. He is, in fact, talking about institutions that pre-dated all these. And the punishment for disobedience came, in spades! The desolation of Israel. The Jerusalem leadership was destroyed, either killed or taken captive. This is symbolized by pointing out that both the King and the Levite are gone.

To this day, we await the full restoration of Israel, when the King takes his throne, every man sits in prosperity under his own vine, and... the Temple is restored, complete with Levites to serve at the altar.

 

[GuardianShua]

I've studied my history pretty thoroughly. And the Sanhedrin and the Pharisees had nothing to do with the Levitical priesthood in Yeshua's day. Where on earth did you get that idea?

Lamentations 2:6
He has laid waste his dwelling like a garden; he has destroyed his place of meeting. The LORD has made Zion forget her appointed festivals and her Sabbaths; in his fierce anger he has spurned both king and priest.​

Ummmmmm... you do realize this is talking about the desolation of Jerusalem, as Jeremiah watched his capital city be destroyed, and the people led away as slaves? At that point, the nation of Judah and the Temple in Jerusalem both ceased to exist.


My sleep has been fine. Thanks for asking.

But if you want me to participate on your thread, you need to lay off the insults. I like you, and think you are a sincere guy with strong feelings on the topics that are discussed here. But be aware that I won't rubber stamp ideas that I think are not in alignment with a correct interpretation of Scripture.

I disagree with the principle of allegorizing prophetic texts, while ignoring the plain meaning. For instance, claiming, "The eternal throne of David is in Heaven" is just completely contrary to the whole theme of Jeremiah 31-33. The point of the passage is that, despite current circumstances (in Jeremiah's day), there will be a restoration of Israel, complete with a Davidic King on the throne and a Levitical priest sacrificing in a new Temple.

Jeremiah is not contrary to Pharisees, Sadducees, or the Sanhedrin. He is, in fact, talking about institutions that pre-dated all these. And the punishment for disobedience came, in spades! The desolation of Israel. The Jerusalem leadership was destroyed, either killed or taken captive. This is symbolized by pointing out that both the King and the Levite are gone.

To this day, we await the full restoration of Israel, when the King takes his throne, every man sits in prosperity under his own vine, and... the Temple is restored, complete with Levites to serve at the altar.

It is said that [some] will be appointed [as] Levites in the millennial reign. Even so, there is no mention of animal sacrifice or feast. The priesthood and the king were completly removed when the Romans destroyed the temple in 68-70 AD. Jerusalem, the priesthood, and the king, they were not completly removed during the Babylonian captivity. In regards to the Romans: The Romans even carried off the contents of the temple to Rome. Every stone was over turned looking for gold and silver. I am very well studied, and if I say somthing that you do not agree with, you should delay in giving an answer and think twice.

 

[GuardianShua]

I see that the Orthodox Jews here have avoided this conversation.

 

[mishkan]

I see that the Orthodox Jews here have avoided this conversation.

I wouldn't read too much into that fact. Your approach has led to some conclusions that are pretty inflammatory, with no demonstrable correlation between the Biblical texts and the Jewish leaders with whom you identify those events.

Why would they want to participate when your statements seem designed only to insult them?

 

[GuardianShua]

I wouldn't read too much into that fact. Your approach has led to some conclusions that are pretty inflammatory, with no demonstrable correlation between the Biblical texts and the Jewish leaders with whom you identify those events.

Why would they want to participate when your statements seem designed only to insult them?

I have posted a number of scriptures that agree with each other, along with the discussion of historical events that agrees with those scriptures. It is more likely that they can not defend their position. The Bible cannot stand if the Messiah never came. "Past tense" The prophecies have time limits. Too bad the Orthodox Jews cannot see that.