Staff and Member discussion thread.

[Yahudim]

I agree, his points miss the boat on many levels, not just in the details, to name a few..

1) The Brother marrying another brother's wife, lol, first of all, the Torah allows the brother to no do so, and also, to say that Messianics do not practice this also made me laugh, how many opportunities or chances will Messianics have to do this? Not many.

2) He never mentions Tzitzit, and quite a few others that come off the top of my head.

3) He says most MTP, do not sleep in Sukkah's for 7 days, ummmm, the only MTP that I know of that do not, have either a medical condition, are elderly or some other problem... I have done this with many others for many years.

4) He brought up how most work on the Holy days, lol, again I don't know these 'most' people, I know more people who said they are not going to work, and that they can fire them if they want, and were not fired.

5) Me and my wife went through and cleaned out our closets full of mixed wool and linen, and purchase clothing with those guidelines, and I know a bunch of other families that do as well.

His arguments are weak, and do not go through all the applicable laws. And ultimately miss the point, this is not a comparison to see who is better and who does more, I could probably come up with a list that show a 10% to 15% difference, but that is not what makes me and others Torah observant... It is a heart that seeks obedience to God, through His commandments, something which is a lifestyle, something which plays a importance on proper interpretation and molds our world view, etc.

On the other hand, I admire his seeking of unity, and I am for that, so I credit him for doing such and I do hope there can be some form of unity, even among all the disagreements.

Once you go to the site, download the spreadsheet. Then start looking us the scripture references that the mitzvahs are based on. Like I said earlier, my understanding of the p'sh*t is a little different than his. But, so it goes. What he has done is offer us a good place to start!

I have to agree that he should receive kudos for an effort at unity over division. Perhaps we should re-work his tool and send him our results.

 

[jcpro]

If anything, this forum demonstrates clearly that the J word needs to be removed from the MJ and MJ Forum from the CF. They just don't belong. For those attempting to follow the Mosaic Law, they have no option but to self censor because many subjects right out of the Tanakh are off limits because they happen to contradict the Nicene Creed. Funny because it is us the Jews who are constantly accused for taking the words of men over G-d's. Where's the Judaism in that? There are posters here openly speaking against the Mosaic Revelation, expressing beliefs that all non Jesus following Jews are damned and/or spinning tales that are not only absolute gibberish, but offensive to Jews and our G-d. It just reinforced my belief that Christianity and Judaism have no common ground and never will. The powers that be here should stick with a plain "Old Testament" forum and maybe a J4J Hebrew interest forum. But. This is not a place for the Torah observant people. I hope I did not offend the people who are here for the love of Torah, but that's how I see it.

 

[etZion]

I thought you knew me by now, I can take it. My post wasn't directed at you per se. It seems like people are starting to jump on 'the bandwagon' of that audio which to me is exact to the video. And I'm scratching my head.

Ah I see, as soon as I finish I will give my take, yes I know you bro, you can take it like a pro!

 

[Chaplain David]

Here is something that I do not understand and I think it is one of several real issues here.

Sometimes when the term Christian is used here I feel as if it is a kind of second class thing to be. It is almost as if it’s used sometimes as a put-down or some kind of incomplete belief. I know it's not and I know that being a Christian is in no way incomplete. Yet, there seems to be a stigma attached to "Christian."

I have not yet found anything that says MJ Believers are not Christian but some may believe that. I am not denying anything about the branch to tree analogy, the uniqueness of MJ just listing what our SOP says and what I believe to be the Head Designation, Christian. We are Christian both MJ and in my case for example Baptist, just branches off the same tree. Despite being a Baptist I am developing a growing interest and fondness of MJ. I have always had that for the Jews.

MJ SOP:

[FONT=&quot]Messianic Believers are part of the larger Body of Messiah (Christians) and linked thru tradition and celebration to the Jewish culture world wide- *Messianic Judaism's ministry is to both the Jewish community and the Christian body of believers. Messianic Jews are part of the larger Body of Messiah throughout the world, and Messianic Jews hope to help all believers in Yeshua to better understand the Jewish roots of their faith.[/FONT]

 

[etZion]

Once you go to the site, download the spreadsheet. Then start looking us the scripture references that the mitzvahs are based on. Like I said earlier, my understanding of the p'sh*t is a little different than his. But, so it goes. What he has done is offer us a good place to start!

I have to agree that he should receive kudos for an effort at unity over division. Perhaps we should re-work his tool and send him our results.

Yeah maybe so... Although I never intended to get into details, as I feel it is a worthless discussion, but it kept being brought up so I went into a few details... to be honest I don't care where one is in their walk with God regarding the Torah, in other words, I don't expect anyone to be as observant more or less than me or anyone else, no bar of what true observance is, just a heart to obey which is seeking more and more, as long as they are not teaching against it and are acknowledging this is the route one should take in obedience to God... as that is what scripture teaches.

 

[anisavta]

Have we moved away from the OP to focus too much on one video? Tish removed it because it was becoming a stumbling point. Should we move on?

 

[anisavta]

This is not a place for the Torah observant people. I hope I did not offend the people who are here for the love of Torah, but that's how I see it.

And that Jcpro is why we are called Messianic Judaism and not Orthodox Judaism. And I hope I don't offend you when I say, you will not understand what's going on over here. We have different issues that will not make sense to you. Shalom.

 

[etZion]

Here is something that I do not understand and I think it is one of several real issues here.

Sometimes when the term Christian is used here I feel as if it is a kind of second class thing to be. It is almost as if it’s used sometimes as a put-down or some kind of incomplete belief. I know it's not and I know that being a Christian is in no way incomplete. Yet, there seems to be a stigma attached to "Christian."

I have not yet found anything that says MJ Believers are not Christian but some may believe that. I am not denying anything about the branch to tree analogy, the uniqueness of MJ just listing what our SOP says and what I believe to be the Head Designation, Christian. We are Christian both MJ and in my case for example Baptist, just branches off the same tree. Despite being a Baptist I am developing a growing interest and fondness of MJ. I have always had that for the Jews.

MJ SOP:

[FONT=&quot]Messianic Believers are part of the larger Body of Messiah (Christians) and linked thru tradition and celebration to the Jewish culture world wide- *Messianic Judaism's ministry is to both the Jewish community and the Christian body of believers. Messianic Jews are part of the larger Body of Messiah throughout the world, and Messianic Jews hope to help all believers in Yeshua to better understand the Jewish roots of their faith.[/FONT]

Sorry, I do joke some times about Christianity, so please do not get the wrong impression, its more for the purpose of making people think, in reality, we are Christians in the most simplest form, being that we believe in the Messiah. But technically Christianity revolves around a gentile world perspective, and Messianic Judaism revolves around a Jewish/Hebrew world perspective... so ultimately there will be differences, some small and some great. None the less we are all still brothers and sisters.

There are some Messianics who do not like Christian doctrines and thus have separated themselves from all things Christian, there are others who also do that with Judaism, separate from all things Jewish... And there are those who can see bad and good in both, as well as, those who see no bad...

This is another mixed topic among Messianics...

 

[Lulav]

Here is something that I do not understand and I think it is one of several real issues here.

Sometimes when the term Christian is used here I feel as if it is a kind of second class thing to be. It is almost as if it’s used sometimes as a put-down or some kind of incomplete belief. I know it's not and I know that being a Christian is in no way incomplete. Yet, there seems to be a stigma attached to "Christian."

I have not yet found anything that says MJ Believers are not Christian but some may believe that. I am not denying anything about the branch to tree analogy, the uniqueness of MJ just listing what our SOP says and what I believe to be the Head Designation, Christian. We are Christian both MJ and in my case for example Baptist, just branches off the same tree. Despite being a Baptist I am developing a growing interest and fondness of MJ. I have always had that for the Jews.

MJ SOP:

[FONT=&quot]Messianic Believers are part of the larger Body of Messiah (Christians) and linked thru tradition and celebration to the Jewish culture world wide- *Messianic Judaism's ministry is to both the Jewish community and the Christian body of believers. Messianic Jews are part of the larger Body of Messiah throughout the world, and Messianic Jews hope to help all believers in Yeshua to better understand the Jewish roots of their faith.[/FONT]

Hi Sacradote, I know that sometimes if exact wording or complete definition isn't written out it can be taken that Christians are second class. But read that SOP again, it really can be taken that we are the second, the tail and not the head.

[FONT="]Messianic Believers are part of the larger Body of Messiah (Christians)[/FONT]

The larger body of Messiah are the Gentile Christians. We believing Jews are just considered a 'part'. This is funny when the Messiah was promised to Israel, the Gentiles really had no idea of a Messiah or that they were even in sin against the true G-d. So wording it this way is a reversal of wha the Bible says, is it not?

[FONT="]Messianic Judaism's ministry is to both the Jewish community and the Christian body of believers[/FONT]

This shows a distinction right here. If we are a part of the Christian body, how can our ministry to the Jewish community and the Christian body be?

[FONT="] Messianic Jews are part of the larger Body of Messiah throughout the world[/FONT]

Body of Messiah, it does not say of Christianity. Messianic Judaism has been struggling to be the head, not the tail.

This is an old post but it gives the scripture basis and a sermon from Rabbi Stuart Dauermann, PhD http://www.christianforums.com/t6096212/


So if it seems to come off that way as you have perceived it may just be because some do believe in that prophecy. It is G-ds words, not ours.


http://www.christianforums.com/t6096212/
[FONT=&quot][/FONT]

 

[jcpro]

And that Jcpro is why we are called Messianic Judaism and not Orthodox Judaism. And I hope I don't offend you when I say, you will not understand what's going on over here. We have different issues that will not make sense to you. Shalom.

I don't object to what's going on here. I enjoy different religious fora and a good conversation, no matter the topic-as long as it's fairly accurate and interesting. I object to this being called Judaism.

 

[anisavta]

As do most normative Jews. And that's what makes Messianic Jews so "interesting". Normative Jews object to us using Judaism because they think it's not and Christians object to us using Judaism because we shouldn't anymore. What cha gonna do?

 

[GuardianShua]

As do most normative Jews. And that's what makes Messianic Jews so "interesting". Normative Jews object to us using Judaism because they think it's not and Christians object to us using Judaism because we shouldn't anymore. What cha gonna do?

The only people I know who object to the term Judaism are the Catholics.

 

[anisavta]

Here is something that I do not understand and I think it is one of several real issues here.

Sometimes when the term Christian is used here I feel as if it is a kind of second class thing to be. It is almost as if it’s used sometimes as a put-down or some kind of incomplete belief. I know it's not and I know that being a Christian is in no way incomplete. Yet, there seems to be a stigma attached to "Christian."

I have not yet found anything that says MJ Believers are not Christian but some may believe that. I am not denying anything about the branch to tree analogy, the uniqueness of MJ just listing what our SOP says and what I believe to be the Head Designation, Christian. We are Christian both MJ and in my case for example Baptist, just branches off the same tree. Despite being a Baptist I am developing a growing interest and fondness of MJ. I have always had that for the Jews.

MJ SOP:

[FONT=&quot]Messianic Believers are part of the larger Body of Messiah (Christians) and linked thru tradition and celebration to the Jewish culture world wide- *Messianic Judaism's ministry is to both the Jewish community and the Christian body of believers. Messianic Jews are part of the larger Body of Messiah throughout the world, and Messianic Jews hope to help all believers in Yeshua to better understand the Jewish roots of their faith.[/FONT]

I think in part its the knee jerk reaction of a Messianic Jew because many have family and friends and even they themselves who were hurt deeply at the hands of "Christians." As well as (and we've worried this one a bit) Christians trying to get Messianic Jews to give up the legal schmeegle life and go over to the freedom side. So the word smacks of prickly. And then sad to say we have those who think Messianic Judaism should belong only to the Jews and although they probably don't mean it, make it sound like they'd prefer Gentiles to stay on their own side of town so to speak.

 

[jcpro]

As do most normative Jews. And that's what makes Messianic Jews so "interesting". Normative Jews object to us using Judaism because they think it's not and Christians object to us using Judaism because we shouldn't anymore. What cha gonna do?

LOL
become Christian or Jewish because you cannot square this circle.

 

[SAM Wis]

In response to the perception that “Christian” some how seems to be used as kind of a second class state:
At the risk of bringing up something that may be seen as divisive, as the dust finally seems to be settling, may I point out that neither Christianity or Judaism is free of error?

Both are manmade systems that spring from people's interpretations of Scripture.

Judaism is not today what it was in Yeshua's time

Christianity today is not what it was in the first century either.

The "Messianic" perception that something is wrong with Christianity I do not think has anything to do with heritage or being second class
The "Christian" perception that there is something wrong with Messianics does not have to do with heritage or being second class either.

Gentile believers have been treated as "second class" by Jewish Believers, but not in all cases and all times.
Jews have been disgracefully treated over the centuries by those who call themselves Christians, and in the Name of Christ, but some of those same "Christians" of various stripes have defended Jews to the death, too.

One does not justify the other.

I see that it often has to do with the maturity of all involved and how well they are able to wisely handle differences.

Rather than being primarily concerned with offense to a people group, one way or the other, it has seemed to me that primary concern needs to be our efforts to be obedient to what the Word teaches, the entire Word

You say that you know Christianity is in no way incomplete.

I think most Jewish people would say the same about Judaism.

Yet those who come to Messiah are sometimes called “completed Jews” or born anew!

Being born from above or born anew is a very Jewish concept!

It would be impossible to deny that Christians think Jews need to be made complete in Messiah.

In some cases, to be “Christianized” yet the more I have learned, the more I think it has to do with becoming part of the family, and those who are adopted INTO a family don’t get to determine the ways of that family.

The Head of it, our Elohim does

I do think it has more to do with the understanding of what it means today to have a golden calf and in man’s often less than humble opinion, decide that it is an honor to the God of Israel.

Some of the practices that the "Christian" church as a whole have adopted are not to be found anywhere in Scripture, except among the things that His people are told NOT to do.

Some of the practices that the various aspects of “Judaism” practice are not to be found anywhere in Scripture except among the things that His people are told NOT to do

Do we believe that there are two ways to walk in righteousness:
a righteous Jewish walk?
a righteous Christian walk?

and further subdividing this: a righteous Christian walk
a righteous Messianic walk

As far as I can see, the Word describes His way of righteousness, whatever we were before.
His way of righteousness. Though we have been divided, the ultimate goal is His one way.

None of us will be complete until we are complete in Messiah at His return

And if people don't understand what a golden calf of today looks like, does that mean they are not "held accountable" by our Elohim? I don't think Scripture indicates that. Leaders are responsible to teach correctly, but people are to be searching the Word, too.

Aaron didn’t cover the people then. Later Saul didn’t cover the people. How many leaders today are not covering the people?

There definitely are places of unity in understanding for People of the Book, whether Jewish or Christian, certainly we are more in unity than with those of Buddhism or Islam (yet they consider themselves People of the Book, too

Yet, there are also practices that our Elohim determined are within the scope of walking in His ways, and those that are outside it.

He is the same from age to age. His Word stands…not our opinions.

This forum thread will not determine final understanding for all, but it is one place of discussion.

If there is any question of being “incomplete” or “second class” I think it will have to reside in the Word, fully digested, from beginning to end.

If one doesn’t have familiarity with the foundation, how will they have complete understanding? If one doesn’t have familiarity with Yeshua’s life and teachings, how will they have complete understanding?

It isn't our personal judgment to make, but ours to be good Bereans and study the Whole Word.

Here is something that I do not understand and I think it is one of several real issues here.

Sometimes when the term Christian is used here I feel as if it is a kind of second class thing to be. It is almost as if it’s used sometimes as a put-down or some kind of incomplete belief. I know it's not and I know that being a Christian is in no way incomplete. Yet, there seems to be a stigma attached to "Christian."

I have not yet found anything that says MJ Believers are not Christian but some may believe that. I am not denying anything about the branch to tree analogy, the uniqueness of MJ just listing what our SOP says and what I believe to be the Head Designation, Christian. We are Christian both MJ and in my case for example Baptist, just branches off the same tree. Despite being a Baptist I am developing a growing interest and fondness of MJ. I have always had that for the Jews.

MJ SOP:

[FONT=&quot]Messianic Believers are part of the larger Body of Messiah (Christians) and linked thru tradition and celebration to the Jewish culture world wide- *Messianic Judaism's ministry is to both the Jewish community and the Christian body of believers. Messianic Jews are part of the larger Body of Messiah throughout the world, and Messianic Jews hope to help all believers in Yeshua to better understand the Jewish roots of their faith.[/FONT]

 

[anisavta]

LOL
become Christian or Jewish because you cannot square this circle.

And there's the rub. I am Jewish. But I won't deny Messiah. I grew up Christian but now cannot condone Christmas, Easter, Sunday worship nor treif. I do not identify with Christianity. I do identify with my People. And I see it as a vin diagram. No squares necessary.

 

[jcpro]

And there's the rub. I am Jewish. But I won't deny Messiah. I grew up Christian but now cannot condone Christmas, Easter, Sunday worship nor treif. I do not identify with Christianity. I do identify with my People. And I see it as a vin diagram. No squares necessary.

Are you Jewish-Jewish or MJ Jewish?

 

[anisavta]

Jewish-Jewish? Like, is my mom Jewish or I just walked into a MJ congregation and decided to be Jewish?

 

[jcpro]

Jewish-Jewish? Like, is my mom Jewish or I just walked into a MJ congregation and decided to be Jewish?

Just curious, but if you're Jewish by birth, you've never felt the need to belong to the community?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

ooops...nm....no post
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