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Corruption of Christianity

sk8Joyful

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Is atheism, or theism for that matter, even a choice?
Can you choose what to believe?

Are any of us capable of believing something
that the little voice in our minds says..."y'know...

How does one "choose" to believe?
I was born & raised in a once-communist-country: Never inside a church, no awareness of the Bible, never heard anyone pray. And I was surrounded by atheists.

At age 5, after 2 years of intense curiosity, I finally commented: 'We never leave a new baby naked in the barn on hay; so what is that baby doing? on that Xmas decoration'. They had ignored me for 2yrs., but some thing kept drawing me to it. They said: it's just an old meaningless fairy tale. - I persisted: but it had meaning for someone making it. Did they Name that baby? - (silence, for what seemed like an eternity). Finally: they called the little boy Jesus.

'JESUS' <- that, was all it took. That answered my curiosity, & the connection was made, &
my LOVE-relationship with God :hug: was born.


re "How does one 'choose' to believe?":
it's simple.
When a child or person has insight, to questions... that adults in their environment have not yet thought about, nor understood, nor therefore lived & practiced.
 
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quatona

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Strictly speaking, what other standard is there? A moral standard? Since atheism concerns itself only with rejecting God and all things of God, the atheist does not need to be good or divide right from wrong.
Again: only if you reduce an atheist to his atheism.
If you reduce a readhead to their red hair readheads also don´t need to be good or divide right from wrong.

Atheism is easy!
Undisputed, but so is theism. All that´s required to be a theist is to believe in the existence of something you call "god".
 
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Wiccan_Child

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I was born & raised in a once-communist-country: Never inside a church, no awareness of the Bible, never heard anyone pray. And I was surrounded by atheists.

At age 5, after 2 years of intense curiosity, I finally commented: 'We never leave a new baby naked in the barn on hay; so what is that baby doing? on that Xmas decoration'.
What country did you grow up in that you didn't even know about the Bible, yet still had Christmas decorations depicting Jesus?
 
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Wiccan_Child

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Strictly speaking, what other standard is there? A moral standard? Since atheism concerns itself only with rejecting God and all things of God, the atheist does not need to be good or divide right from wrong.

Atheism is easy!
First, atheist doesn't concern itself with rejecting all things of God - only the existence of God himself. And your phraseology implies that 'atheism' is some sort of political movement, but it's not: an atheist is someone who's not a theist, someone who rejects the claim "God exists".

Second, it doesn't follow that an atheist "does not need to be good or divide right from wrong" - being an atheist does not imply that one is a moral nihilist.
 
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Belk

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Strictly speaking, what other standard is there? A moral standard? Since atheism concerns itself only with rejecting God and all things of God, the atheist does not need to be good or divide right from wrong.

Atheism is easy!


Do you understand the difference between the two sentences I wrote?
 
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Myshkin99

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re "How does one 'choose' to believe?":
it's simple.
When a child or person has insight, to questions... that adults in their environment have not yet thought about, nor understood, nor therefore lived & practiced.

That doesn't answer anything about how, or if, you chose to believe. Once presented with the information, you thought it likely to be true...is that the way it worked? If so, that's not choosing to believe. That is your brain evaluating the data and making a guesstimate as to whether it is likely to be objectively true.
 
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sk8Joyful

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What country
did you grow up in that you didn't even know about the Bible,
yet still had Christmas decorations depicting Jesus?
Your question, serves but as a derail of my Testimony: &
under no obligation to disclose any further of my identity,
my childhood was in a European country. - Truthfully,
I had zero awareness of any book called a 'bible', and
hushed were adult answers, for fear of the police.
 
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sandwiches

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Strictly speaking, what other standard is there? A moral standard? Since atheism concerns itself only with rejecting God and all things of God, the atheist does not need to be good or divide right from wrong.
I have moral standards. It's hard to keep those morals standards.

Atheism is easy!
It is for me.

So to summarize and compare as it pertains to most people:
It's easy: being atheist and theist

It is hard: living up to one's moral standard.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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Your question, serves but as a derail of my Testimony
On the contrary, I was simply asking a question about your story. I honestly don't know of any country (let alone in Europe) where you would grow up and never hear of the Bible. Even in fundamentalist Muslim countries, even in war-torn countries, you find Bibles.

under no obligation to disclose any further of my identity,
Naturally. I asked a question, and you are free to decline. I curious, as I've never heard of this

my childhood was in a European country. - Truthfully,
I had zero awareness of any book called a 'bible', and
hushed were adult answers, for fear of the police.
Europe is heavily Christianised. What country in Europe bans even the mention of the Bible, yet allows you to freely decorate your house on Christians with overtly Christian symbol (the baby Jesus, no less)? Not only am I unaware of such a country, I'm baffled by that country's contradictory policies.
 
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GrayAngel

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Do you think Christianity might have lost something when it became the majority?

It seems to me that for something to become the majority worldview it can't require significant sacrifice, great commitment and radical change. I doubt the average person has the inclination or perhaps even the ability to give their whole self to faith. They have to raise a family, go to work, study, socialise, go to church and be 'good' people. All important things; all with roughly equal emphasis. But then faith just becomes an important thing.

They forgot why they believed in the first place. What it meant. Why it was different. It became common place. Easy. The societal norm. Plain. Luke-warm. Powerless.

"Believe Jesus dyed for your sins, come to church every Sunday and keep a few rules we give you and you'll be fine."

Should faith be hard?


(My view is more complex than this, but I don't want to write too much)

Christians becoming the majority is a part of it, yes. We now have so many Christians that they practically make the elect invisible. We have Christians who come to church on Sunday, gather in large numbers immediately after at some restaurant that can barely fit them, leave little to no tips, and then continue to live their lives the same as (and often times much worse than) unbelievers.

But it's not just because we're the majority. I also blame the early Catholic church for screwing majorly with the Christian faith. Protestants are still struggling to recover the theology that Catholicism demolished, although this is a task much easier said than done.

The biggest factor is probably the passage of time. It only took a few generations for offshoots to begin sprouting from the Christian faith. We even had some Christians who claimed that Jesus wasn't really human but was an apparition. They believed that flesh is inherently evil, so Jesus couldn't have had flesh.

Now, nearly 2000 years later, there has been plenty of time for the Christian theology to be twisted in so many directions that it's almost unrecognizable in many places. We have Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, the United Pentecostal Church, etc., all of which believe they have exclusive rights to Heaven and are masters of manipulating the Bible to their benefit.

Christianity has been through a lot of decay. Fortunately, it has become much easier for us to study the Bible now than it ever has been, so it is not beyond recovery. Now we even have software that gives us the ability to study word-for-word translations from the earliest Greek manuscripts available, whereas in the time of the reign of Catholicism, the only Bible available was in Latin, which most people couldn't read.
 
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tannicv2

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Do you think Christianity might have lost something when it became the majority?

It seems to me that for something to become the majority worldview it can't require significant sacrifice, great commitment and radical change. I doubt the average person has the inclination or perhaps even the ability to give their whole self to faith. They have to raise a family, go to work, study, socialise, go to church and be 'good' people. All important things; all with roughly equal emphasis. But then faith just becomes an important thing.

They forgot why they believed in the first place. What it meant. Why it was different. It became common place. Easy. The societal norm. Plain. Luke-warm. Powerless.

"Believe Jesus dyed for your sins, come to church every Sunday and keep a few rules we give you and you'll be fine."

Should faith be hard?


(My view is more complex than this, but I don't want to write too much)

Sorry for butting in late but I see what you're saying. Faith is hard because it's things that are seen. I mean people can believe in Jesus, go to church, keep the rules and they have no faith. You need faith in God and that is what God loves the most. Someone can do everything they can but with faith you can't please God IMO.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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Sorry for butting in late but I see what you're saying. Faith is hard because it's things that are seen. I mean people can believe in Jesus, go to church, keep the rules and they have no faith. You need faith in God and that is what God loves the most. Someone can do everything they can but with faith you can't please God IMO.
In your opinion, what is faith?
 
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tannicv2

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In your opinion, what is faith?

My opinion is faith is believing in things that are not seen.
Examples is Jesus Christ and God. I put all my trust in them and it's personal. Meaning that I have to change for God and God only. I don't mind leading people to Christ but in all it's really up to them to keep the faith and stay on track. I can't fight their battles and neither is God/Jesus an accuse for their sins.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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My opinion is faith is believing in things that are not seen.
By 'not seen', presumably you don't mean literally not seen, or else the air would be a matter of faith ^_^ Could you elaborate?

Examples is Jesus Christ and God. I put all my trust in them and it's personal. Meaning that I have to change for God and God only. I don't mind leading people to Christ but in all it's really up to them to keep the faith and stay on track. I can't fight their battles and neither is God/Jesus an accuse for their sins.
Is it unreasonable for a person to ask for evidence before they believe in God? If a person is open to believing in God, but genuinely sees no evidence to do so (even if such evidence exists), is that person still damned to Hell?
 
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tannicv2

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By 'not seen', presumably you don't mean literally not seen, or else the air would be a matter of faith ^_^ Could you elaborate?

Believe

Is it unreasonable for a person to ask for evidence before they believe in God? If a person is open to believing in God, but genuinely sees no evidence to do so (even if such evidence exists), is that person still damned to Hell?

This right here is not my call because I do not know what will happen in their life time. I mean I might end up there for all I know. Telling someone whether or not they are going to hell or heaven. Its God's call.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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I believe ('affirm the truth of the claim that') the Earth is a sphere, based on the oodles of evidence available. I wouldn't call this 'faith', as 'faith' tends to imply some element of trust, some leap of 'faith' that bridges a dearth in evidence.

Unless you have a different definition of 'belief'? What, to you, is the nature of the position, "The Earth is a sphere"?

(Notwithstanding that the Earth isn't a perfect sphere ;))

This right here is not my call because I do not know what will happen in their life time. I mean I might end up there for all I know. Telling someone whether or not they are going to hell or heaven. Its God's call.
OK. If that's the case, why do Christians talk about how one needs to believe, or have faith in, Jesus, in order to be saved? If the criteria for salvation aren't known, why be a Christian at all? I'm not saying you shouldn't, just that it seems to serve no purpose, if salvation is an unknown.
 
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tannicv2

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I believe ('affirm the truth of the claim that') the Earth is a sphere, based on the oodles of evidence available. I wouldn't call this 'faith', as 'faith' tends to imply some element of trust, some leap of 'faith' that bridges a dearth in evidence.

Unless you have a different definition of 'belief'? What, to you, is the nature of the position, "The Earth is a sphere"?

(Notwithstanding that the Earth isn't a perfect sphere ;))

You have it right. I believe. yes. Do I trust God? yes and constantly working on it. This is the area where a lot of people fall off IMO.

OK. If that's the case, why do Christians talk about how one needs to believe, or have faith in, Jesus, in order to be saved? If the criteria for salvation aren't known, why be a Christian at all? I'm not saying you shouldn't, just that it seems to serve no purpose, if salvation is an unknown.

I think of faith as hope. Hmmm I think Paul wrote Romans but here is what I get from Romans 8.

Romans 8:24
"For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?"
 
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razeontherock

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I think that the teachings of Jesus got lost in a big way when the way of love that he was pointing towards was reduced to dogma.

.

Love has never been reduced! Dogma does not express Love.

The OP makes great points, and she also raises more throughout the thread.

Some people still give their all: the Church needs its monastics. I would say we especially need our monastic mystics. (Even if I can't say it 5x fast)

Personally, I would like to be able to explore the time period before Judaism and Christianity separated themselves from one another. This was complete before 150AD, long before Rome's influence. Both sides of that fence changed things to put distance between themselves and "the other."

Particularly, James would be interesting. He was in charge of Liturgical worship for both sides. (Not simultaneously)
 
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I think you're (OP) conflating religion itself (the Church) with how its adherents might carry themselves as its members. It reminds me of the common argument that there is something wrong with the Church and religion because there are clergy members that do bad things. I don't get that. Specifically, I'm going to look at it within the scope of an orthodox (small 'o') Christian conception.

I think that idea has two problems: (1) It could simply be that the clergy members are simply being hypocritical, but hypocrisy has no bearing on the truth of the hypocrite is purporting yet failing to adhere to and (2) it could also be that the clergy are not simply being hypocritical but actually hold heterodox beliefs themselves.

Notice: I limit the discussion to priests, but it applies to laypeople just as well.

In the first case, the priest might actually be espousing orthodox Christian doctrine, but they simply fail to live up to it. Kind of like do as I say, not as I do. If Joe were to go around saying that murder is morally reprehensible, and then Joe goes around murdering people, Joe's hypocritical actions have no bearing on whether or not murder is or is not morally reprehensible. The only thing that evidence goes to show is that Joe is a murderer. Christianity seems to actually leave room for this since every one of us is a sinner--clergy included. Sinning, and the subsequent realization of hypocrisy, just goes to show how we are still human. Christ is the only one that has ever been completely and wholly free from such hypocrisy. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't try to not be hypocrites or that the path itself is flawed.

In the second case, there doesn't have to be (but still can be) hypocrisy. This case deals with a confused understanding, more or less. The priest here paints heterodox beliefs as orthodox Christian doctrine, and it might even be pretty similar. However, the heterodox beliefs lead to actions which appear corrupted--and they are. It is not the Christian faith that is corrupted at that point, though, but they have corrupted the idea of Christianity to posit something (or things) that is (or are) contrary to orthodox Christianity. They haven't corrupted Christianity itself. Nevertheless, they have a corrupted idea of Christianity. The fact that it is corrupted turns it into something new and entirely distinct.

Furthermore, God said the gates of Hell will never prevail over His Church, and I take that to mean that His Church is incorruptible. That doesn't mean that people and their individual conceptions of the Church are free from corruption, though, be they a lay person or the pope (sorry papal infallibility). We can account for some degree of free will (which I'm not going to unpack further) and corruption with God knowing this to be true. If God chose the best of all possible worlds, then it is perfectly possible that we, as agents, can corrupt ourselves while He knows that at least not all of us will and that His Church will persistently prevail. So this Christian notion also seems to deny that Christianity itself can ever become corrupted.

So, with that, I also that think your scope is way too big. There are plenty of distinct Christian denominations out there, and each one claims to have it right. Now if they're all corrupted/wrong, then your scope is fine, but I don't think you can figure that out until you look at all of them. You also have to know what uncorrupted Christianity is to identify it, and people have different measures for that. Obviously I, as an EO, tend to think that we, at least, are both one real measure of incorruption and one part of the incorrupt Church, if not the only measure and part. Additionally, I also think that anyone positing a negative gap in right Christian belief, say between the Early Church and the Reformation, is claiming that the gates of Hell prevailed against the Church at least during that time frame, which I think is problematic. As an aside, I'd also like to note that does not mean I think that all non-EO (non-Christians and atheists included) must go to Hell, and I also don't think it means that EO are guaranteed entry to heaven.

To piggy-back off of Raze as well, I don't think that dogma is a full expression of God and, therefore, of love. It is our attempt, as guided by the Holy Spirit, to create an orthodox Christian context that adheres to revelation. It neither adds nor subtracts to revelation. At best, it can only clarify what has been has been revealed. It is the attempt and desire to remain incorrupt, which I happen to think is motivated by love.

Now, do I think that scholasticism can (and invariably does) lead to corruption? Hell yes!
 
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