five have fallen, one is, and one is yet to come and there is also the eighth...

[rainbowinthesky]

1) Egypt
2) Assyria
3) Babylon
4) Medo-Persia
5) Greece

is
6) Pagan Rome

is not, continue a short time
7) Papal Rome

eight, is of the seven
8) America

BoWing
__________

1) Babylon
2) Medo Persia
3) Greece
4) Pagan Rome
5) PaPal Rome (point of reference of Rev.17:3; deadly wound in 1798)

6) Atheistic France (one that is after 1798)

7) Apostate Protestantism (one that is to come when church and state unite; image of the beast)

8) Papal Rome... the one which is of the seven who was before 1798, is not after 1798 because of the deadly wound) and is again when the wound is healed as Apostate Protestantism shall revive the beast by enforcing Sunday and by giving power and authority to her.

sky

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

I would definitely start with the Babylonians but would divert to America after papal Rome (one that is) with the seventh being the UN or some other form of world wide confederacy. The papal power would definitely be the eighth being in league with the coming world wide power.

The reason why I pick the US and a UN-like power is the list has to remain consistent and atheistic France and apostate protestantism were not world powers.

 

[rainbowinthesky]

When one takes Rev.17:3 as the point of reference for the five that have fallen, given by the revelator himself, everything falls into place. It is not a human assumption or speculation but a revealed fact. 1798 is the revealed point of reference.

In all due respect BoWing took John's own day as the point of reference for the 5 that have fallen. I have no way of knowing if he was aware of that. He may have been quoting from someone. I know that Uriah Smith took John's own day as the point of reference but he obviously was wrong on that.

If we take John's own day as the point of reference we have to include Egypt and Assyria but these two are not mentioned in the visions of the prophet Daniel. Now let us see what we have if we take John's own day as the point of reference.

5 have fallen:

1) Greece
2) Medo Persia
3) Babylon
4) Egypt
5) Assyria

One is:

Pagan Rome

And three are yet to come

Papal Rome
Atheistic France
Apostate Protestantism when it shall reveive a kingdom.

But the prophecy says that after the one that is, one is yet to come, not three!

But if we take Rev.17:3 as the revealed point of reference, which is 1798, we now have:

5 have fallen

1) Papal Rome
2) Pagan Rome
3) Greece
4) Medo-Persia
5) Babylon the head of gold

One is:

Atheistic France

One is yet to come:

Apostate Protestantism

And then there is the eighth which is one of the seven who was, is not, and yet is again and that is the Papal power who before 1798 was, after 1798 is not, and yet is again when the wound is healed.

sky

 

[reddogs]

1) Egypt
2) Assyria
3) Babylon
4) Medo-Persia
5) Greece

is
6) Pagan Rome

is not, continue a short time
7) Papal Rome

eight, is of the seven
8) America

BoWing
__________

1) Babylon
2) Medo Persia
3) Greece
4) Pagan Rome
5) PaPal Rome (point of reference of Rev.17:3; deadly wound in 1798)

6) Atheistic France (one that is after 1798)

7) Apostate Protestantism (one that is to come when church and state unite; image of the beast)

8) Papal Rome... the one which is of the seven who was before 1798, is not after 1798 because of the deadly wound) and is again when the wound is healed as Apostate Protestantism shall revive the beast by enforcing Sunday and by giving power and authority to her.

sky

This passage always intrigues me...

Good to see you sky..

 

[rainbowinthesky]

Hey red, so does it still intrigue you?

It intrigued me for many years as well but now it is
so clear to me that the papacy which is of the
seven is the only one about whom it can be said
she was, is not, and is again when her wound is
healed.

sky

 

[MidnightCry]

There seems to be some confusion regarding Rev. 17:10:

And there are seven kings; five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

Revelation 13:1 tells us the heads have blasphemous names written on them. This indicates they are religious in nature and they are anti-Christ. Also, one head was wounded, but the deadly wound was healed when the composite beast comes up from the sea. The head that was wounded is the papacy. There are seven heads, that is, there are seven of the same thing. Because the wounded/healed head represents a religious system (the papacy), the remaining six heads must also represent religious systems.

When Jesus came to Earth, five religious systems fell. In other words, Jesus declared five religious systems were false.

1) Atheism
2) Heathenism
3) Judaism
4) Eastern Mysticism
5) Islam

The sixth head (Christianity) was just beginning in John's day. Eventually, this head was called the Roman Catholic Church. It became a false religion and blasphemous over time. The seventh head appeared on Earth around 1500 AD and it is called Protestantism.

Rev 17:11 The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction.

Satan will physically appear and dominate the seven heads. The devil will establish an eighth religious system and he will rule over the religious systems of the world. The devil will be destroyed at the end, but not by human power.

YSIC,
MidnightCry

 

[ricker]

There seems to be some confusion regarding Rev. 17:10:

And there are seven kings; five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

Revelation 13:1 tells us the heads have blasphemous names written on them. This indicates they are religious in nature and they are anti-Christ. Also, one head was wounded, but the deadly wound was healed when the composite beast comes up from the sea. The head that was wounded is the papacy. There are seven heads, that is, there are seven of the same thing. Because the wounded/healed head represents a religious system (the papacy), the remaining six heads must also represent religious systems.

When Jesus came to Earth, five religious systems fell. In other words, Jesus declared five religious systems were false.

1) Atheism
2) Heathenism
3) Judaism
4) Eastern Mysticism
5) Islam

The sixth head (Christianity) was just beginning in John's day. Eventually, this head was called the Roman Catholic Church. It became a false religion and blasphemous over time. The seventh head appeared on Earth around 1500 AD and it is called Protestantism.

Rev 17:11 The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction.

Satan will physically appear and dominate the seven heads. The devil will establish an eighth religious system and he will rule over the religious systems of the world. The devil will be destroyed at the end, but not by human power.

YSIC,
MidnightCry

Just a comment off the top of my head.

Maybe the reason I became a Protestant is I'm just not deep enough to follow all this stuff. You folks are at a place in prophesy where I can't understand enough to try to refute it, or confirm it. Carry on.

 

[stinsonmarri]

It has been a while because I am working on some articles. One of them soon will deal with this issue. When studying prophecies we first must understand the time of the prophecy, how it applies to man and the history is presents. You cannot understand the Bible unless you understand history.
Rev 1:1 specifically gives us the time. The Father gives to His Son the final event that will take place on this earth. Dan 12:9 states clearly to Daniel that what he viewed also at the TIME of the end. Even EGW states clearly that the TIME of the end would begin in 1798 so how could that possibly be France!
We next need understand how this applies to man. If we are dealing with the last days and YAHWEH specifically starts out dealing with the people who will stand just before His Son returns. Dan 12:1-3, 10-13, Matt 24:15-21, Rev 1:3, 6, 9; 3:14-20, 12:7
Next is the historical events that exactly given in prophecies. You cannot understand this text unless you start with Daniel Chapter Seven. I have stated repeatedly that these beasts dealt with religion because two of the last three beasts (not the fourth) appear in Dan Chapter Eight. However, they are different animals but the two same kingdoms the difference is they are political! The beasts are exactly historically correct five had fallen: Assyria, Egypt, Babylon, Persia, and Greece. One is represents Rome as pagan Rome and one just for a little while is Papacy Rome. However, here is the problem that some SDA do not want to understand. That this beast is a mystery and only those who truly have the testimony of Yashua, which means having extra oil of understanding, will receive the knowledge.
The fourth beast deals with all of the six beasts and their false religions. However, the last three has combined the other religions with their beliefs. The dead really do not died, a false Messiah called Christ or Mithra, one deity with three different personalities with a pagan name called god. The king thinks he is a deity. False feast days versus YAHWEH true ones starting with the Sunday instead of Sunday. Deities having human traits and mating with humans, pagan symbols like the cross (Egypt ankh), evergreen tree, ornaments and so much more. If this is true then Rev shows it as well as Daniel that the last three made of Babylon (Lion), Persia (the bear in its religion aspect and a ram politically, Greece (the leopard in its religion aspect and a goat politically). In addition, Rome came out of the goat in the next chapter and she has always been identified as Greco-Rom (Dan 8:8, 9). That is what Daniel saw because he clearly saw that it stamped its feet like a bear and iron teeth (that represent Rome) and it was different from the other three beasts. Simply because it looked like what was given in Rev 13:1, it had a lion head with seven heads attached to it. On its head were ten horns and not the seven other head (Dan 7:20). Feet of Bear Persia, body of a leopard which represent Greece!
Historians when dealing with ancient digs must decipher various symbols and what they stand for in relation to reality. The heads represent empires, the horn, kingdoms so when the papacy head was wounded the beast himself almost died. The papacy is no longer an empire but a church known as a whorish woman (Rev 1-5). To identify the beast/man we must eliminate the United States because Rev 13:11 states it is the lamb like beast. Only animal that has horns like a lamb is the buffalo! Rev 17: is very plain stating that the beast/man is of the seventh. Simply it means that someone will leave the Catholic Church who had power and political/Religious status! Whoever this man is will completely hate what he once believed including Yahweh. He will joined with Satan and become his son and have great powers. He will war with the Catholic Church and her allies and he is the eighth that will be destroyed (Dan 7:11; 11:27-45; 12:11; Matt 24:15; 2Thes 2:5-10; Rev 11:7; 13:1-3; 16:10-16; 17:1, 8-14; 19:19, 20. He will rule the world like Nimrod but only a short time to be burned by Yashua at His coming!

Happy Sabbath,
stinsonmarri

 

[Xenon]

Sky, I would say differently regarding the 2 last heads. I'm not trying to be contentious, but if it is, I apologize

In Revelation 17:10, one head "is". That is, when it is written, the 6th head exists. Since this is during the time that the Papal beast (5th head) is out of action (the beast that "was" and "is not"), and America existed and was established by this point, America can fulfill this role well.

But another reason is because of how Atheist France is referred to in Revelation 11:13. It is referred to as "the tenth part of the city". Which city? The one referred to in Revelation 11:8. I won't go into details unless you ask, but that "great city" and the "beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit" is Babylon. That is, the prophecy classifies Atheistic France as a subunit of Babylon, particularly the Papal beast.

The point? In the prophecy, Atheistic France is not a world power. It is part of a world power. It is 1 out of 10 horns. America, on the other hand, gets its own beast and plays a very dominant role in the end times. If God had to pick an empire to represent as a head with the likes of Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, and the Papacy, America is the much more logical pick.

I would peg the last head as the united 10 kingdoms found in Revelation 17. Here's why:

1.) In Revelation 17:12, the angel informs John that the 10 horns have no kingdom yet. This implies that they will eventually have a kingdom. The passage calls them kings, and it is fitting that kings should eventually have a kingdom. Revelation 17:17 echoes this, specifically saying that they have kingdoms to give to the beast. This makes them a potential target for the 7th head.

2.) Revelation 17:10 says that the last one "must continue a short space". This indicates time. Between Apostate Protestantism and the 10 horns, the 10 horns is promised a short space of time to reign with the beast. Revelation 17:12 says that it reigns for 1 hour. As the "image of the beast", Apostate Protestantism does not have a set time to reign. This favors the 10 horns.

3.) In Revelation 13:11, it says that the second beast "speaks like a dragon". When does this happen? When the "image of the beast" is set up in Revelation 13:15. "...the image of the beast should both speak..." It treats the second beast and the "image of the beast" as one entity when it is first introduced in Revelation 13:11 by saying right off the bat that the second beast "spake as a dragon".

Compare this to Revelation 13:2, when Rome gave the Papacy its power, and Revelation 13:5, when Rome gave the Papacy its ability to "speak". But here, two separate entities come together. One beast gives its power to another.

The short version of point 3 is this: Rome and the Papacy are counted as 2 heads because they are treated as separate beasts. The second beast and the "image of the beast", however, are treated as a single beast. America and Apostate Protestantism overlap, allowing for the 10 kings to have a spot.

A lot to swallow at once, I know. But if you have objections, let me know. The truth loses nothing by inquiry.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

I would definitely start with the Babylonians but would divert to America after papal Rome (one that is) with the seventh being the UN or some other form of world wide confederacy. The papal power would definitely be the eighth being in league with the coming world wide power.

The reason why I pick the US and a UN-like power is the list has to remain consistent and atheistic France and apostate protestantism were not world powers.

I concur Xenon... one of the rules of prophetic interpretation is that you have to follow the pattern established in a multi faceted vision as this. World powers are the precedent set and must be followed...

 

[stinsonmarri]

Wrong it is of the seventh but not the seventh. It is another person that hates the seventh who lost her political power and has become only a church. The papacy lost her powers as an empire in 1798 she was only for a short while. The beast/man was once a part of her but he realize she was a liar. He will hate her and because of her lies he will hate Elohim as well and turn to serve Satan. The harlot have all the kings to drink of her wine of fornication which is false worship of all type. She and her loyaltist will be destroyed by the beast/man with the rest of the world just before the last plagues. That is earth final battle. Yahweh will not fight the beast/man but the Bible clearly states He will place Him in the lake of fire. The beast/man will sit in the Temple that the Catholic, Protestant and Jews will rebuilt for just a very few days. He is the wicked man and not the whorish church. Read Dan Chapter Eleven and then Twelve, and Revelation that I stated earlier. This is not hard folk but only the wise will understand!

Blessings,
stinsonmarri

 

[stinsonmarri]

Xenon
This has nothing to do with France. Look at the Chapter it begins with John measuring the Temple in Heaven with the Saints in it. He was then told not to measure the courtyard, which the Gentile has underfoot. Now Gentile means Greek folks and the Papacy will hold this courtyard, which is the earth mainly the Bible, says the holy city. Now that is easy! Jerusalem the Papacy will aid the Jews in rebuilding the Temple along with the Protestants. Folks this is future events and not history. You have taken this out Uriah Smith book, which has a lot of error, and even EGW stated this as well. The two witnesses is the OT and NT that is used by the 144,000 follows the sequence of events that Elohim is providing. He gives a summation and the goes back and gives the details of how the summation came about simple! The Beast/man appears because the Gentile or harlot cannot stop the events quoted by the 144,000 like Moses and Elijah to their kings who refuse to obey Elohim. Same thing now it is on a worldwide scale. This group as EGW indicate will finish the work and bring in the great multitude. The two Witness (Elohim's Word) appears to be destroyed. Symbolically they look like two men taken up but you want to know that that is the Ark of the Covenant that was hidden by Jeremiah ordered by Elohim. No one can touch the Ark now. It will go into Heaven and all will see that Elohim Word has never change. The Ark has the two (get it) table of stone with the law, commandment and statues written on it. Then the second woe is past and the final one comes quickly. The seventh Trumpet is blown, the world kingdoms have ended, and Elohim will reign! You all need to read the fourth Chapter of Rev because it is given you from the time Yashua took the book of Life from His Father in 1884 to begin His ministry in the Most Holy. The way to Elohim is through His Sanctuary!!!

Blessings,
stinsonmarri

 

[MidnightCry]

This is getting so confusing.

What do the seven heads and ten horns represent on this beast?

John saw seven heads and 10 horns three times in Revelation. The first time is recorded in Chapter 12, the second time in Chapter 13, and the last time in Chapter 17.

Here is what he states about the heads in Chapter 13:

* each head has a blasphemous name (verse 1)
* one of the heads had been wounded and healed (verse 3)
* the beast was given a mouth to blaspheme God (verse 5)

In Chapter 17 he states:

* the seven heads are seven mountains or hills. (verse9)
* the seven heads are seven kings (verse 9)
* five have fallen (verse 10)
* one is (verse 10)
* one is yet to come (verse 10)
* the beast that ascends out of the Abyss will be the eighth king and is a
companion of the seven heads (verse 8,11)

Each head as a blasphemous name. This indicates that each head is religious in nature, for each head assumes the prerogatives of God. One of the heads had been wounded, but is now healed. This is the Papacy. If one head is the Papacy, then shouldn't the remaining heads represent the same thing as the Papacy, namely, a religious system?

When Jesus became flesh and dwelt among men, five religious systems were exposed as false. The physical presence of Jesus upon earth exposed the vain and foolish teaching of man.

YSIC,
MidnightCry

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

This is getting so confusing.

What do the seven heads and ten horns represent on this beast?

John saw seven heads and 10 horns three times in Revelation. The first time is recorded in Chapter 12, the second time in Chapter 13, and the last time in Chapter 17.

Here is what he states about the heads in Chapter 13:

* each head has a blasphemous name (verse 1)
* one of the heads had been wounded and healed (verse 3)
* the beast was given a mouth to blaspheme God (verse 5)

In Chapter 17 he states:

* the seven heads are seven mountains or hills. (verse9)
* the seven heads are seven kings (verse 9)
* five have fallen (verse 10)
* one is (verse 10)
* one is yet to come (verse 10)
* the beast that ascends out of the Abyss will be the eighth king and is a
companion of the seven heads (verse 8,11)

Each head as a blasphemous name. This indicates that each head is religious in nature, for each head assumes the prerogatives of God. One of the heads had been wounded, but is now healed. This is the Papacy. If one head is the Papacy, then shouldn't the remaining heads represent the same thing as the Papacy, namely, a religious system?

When Jesus became flesh and dwelt among men, five religious systems were exposed as false. The physical presence of Jesus upon earth exposed the vain and foolish teaching of man.

YSIC,
MidnightCry

I see where you are getting your understanding but why does the power need to be religious in nature to blaspheme God. Didn't Pharoah and Nebuchanezzer blaspheme when they set themselves above God, making themselves as gods on earth? What about every other leader that has attributed their power to themselves? I don't think it necessarily needs to be a religious power. My main clue in leading me to that is that in prophesy, there has to be consistency... if the powers in this vision change from world powers to religious ones, that creates confusion to the understanding of the vision, imo.

 

[rainbowinthesky]

The ten horns are not always the same powers. In the last days we are told that they are 10 kings that have no kingdom as yet but will receive a kingdom for a short time with the beast. Mrs White in Bible Commentary states that these horns are "churches" of which Protestantism is the first. There will come a time when all the major religions of this world will follow the example of Apostate Protestantism in making an image to the beast. Protestantism at this time does not have a kingdom but will receive a kingdom when it receives the power of the State to enforce Sunday observance. Then it will be a king and the other major religions will follow her example which means that in every country on the globe church and state will unite to enforce the Sunday. And then we are told that these will give their power to the papacy and thus her deadly wound will be healed. That is why she is called the eighth. She is of the seven, who was was before 1798, is not after 1798 because of the deadly wound, and is again when her wound is healed through the work of Apostate protestantism.

sky

*I do remember in the seventies I was told that the Reader's Digest Encyclopedia had divided the religious world into ten major religions. These are the ten horns of Rev.17 in these last days who have no kingdom as yet but will receive a kingdom for a short timen as they will wield the power of the state to enforce their dogmas and then will give their power to the papacy.

 

[MidnightCry]

If one of the heads is religious in nature, then shoudn't all the heads be religious in nature? Wouldn't that be the most consistent way to look at the identity of the heads?

John was told that one head "is," and that one "is yet to come." The new head or religious system that had begun in John's day was Christianity. What was called Christianity for a thousand years is now called Catholicism. John was a founder of that new religious system and that is why the angel said "one is."

By 1798, the Reformation produced a new head or religious system that would exist for "a little while." This system is known as Protestantism. Protestantism is a new comer to the religious world. It is only about four centuries old. The other six religious systems are twenty or more centuries old.

YSIC,
MidnightCry

 

[Xenon]

Sky: I did not find the reference in the SDA Bible Commentary about one of the horns being Protestantism. Could you supply the reference?

Midnight: The religious component of the beast in Revelation 17 is represented by the harlot riding the beast. Babylon...

• ...is "the great harlot that sitteth upon many waters". (Revelation 17:1)
• ...has "a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication". (Revelation 17:4)
• ...is "THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH". (Revelation 17:5)
• ...is "that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess" and who teaches God's servants "to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols."

It is the woman, the false system of religion, who rules over many people. She has a cup of intoxicating wine. She is the origin of abominations. She calls herself a prophetess. She teaches people to leave God, and to worship things that we can see instead.

So why do the heads of the beast have names of blasphemy? She is also the one "With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication." (Revelation 17:2) The kings drank, and they became blasphemous. That is why she rides the beast. Revelation 17 shows the relationship between the system of religion and the powers of the earth.

Since she represents false religion, and beasts in prophecy have represented nations in past prophecies, it is much more consistent to say that the beasts still represent nations here. It describes her as sitting on many waters, which are "peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues." (Revelation 17:15) And in Daniel 7:2-3, world empires rise out of these waters.

And to answer your question about one of the heads being religious in nature, the Roman religion that became the Papacy existed before 538 AD. But in Revelation 13, it is only considered a world power once it receives its power, seat, and authority from the previous beast. Only then does it have a blasphemous mouth. The Bible doesn't consider it a beast until it has secular power.

The reverse happens for America. America has secular power before it becomes a religious one. When does the Bible consider America a "beast"? When it gains secular power. It rises up out of the earth, and has lamb-like horns at the start. It is represented by a beast before the image of the beast (Apostate Protestantism) is put in power. In fact, the secular power asks the people to make the image of the beast!

The consistency is overwhelming. Beasts, while they may be mingled with religious powers, represent secular power. And that division is clearly seen in Revelation 17 when it separates the woman (religious) from the beast (secular).

 

[rainbowinthesky]

Sky: I did not find the reference in the SDA Bible Commentary about one of the horns being Protestantism. Could you supply the reference?

Xenon
___________

Rev.17:12 clearly states that the ten horns are ten kings but it says that these horns have received no kingdom as yet but will receive power as kings one hour with the beast. The churches of Protestantism do not have a kingdom as yet but when they shall receive power from the State they will receive a kingdom.

"Come here, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot that sitteth upon many waters; with whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication." Rev.17:1,2.

Mrs. White cites Rev.17:1,2 and makes this comment:

"In the seventeenth of Revelation is foretold the destruction of all the churches who corrupt themselves by idolatrous devotion to the service of the papacy, those who have drunk of the winde of the wrath of her fornication." E.G. White, Bible Commentary, Vol.7,983.

Notice that in verse 2 it says "the kings of the earth". Mrs. White identifies these kings as churches who have not received a kingom yet but will receive power as kings one hour with the beast. And then she adds this:

"What is it that gives its kingdom to this power? Protestantism, a power which, while professing to have the temper and spirit of a lamb and to be allied to Heaven, speaks with the voice of a dragon. It is moved by a power from beneath." E.G. White, 7 B.C.983.

"These (churches) have one mind and shall give their power and strength unto the beast." Verse 13.

sky

*Protestantism is one of the ten horns. We are told that every country on the globe will follow the example of Apostate Protestantism which means that whatever the major religion of a country is it will receive the power of the State to enforce Sunday observance. So the ten horns represent all the major religions of this world who will ride the state in these last days to enforce the child of the papacy and then they will give their power to the papacy and her wound will be healed. That is why we are told that she is the eighth being one of the seven, who was before 1798, is not after 1798 because of the wound, and is again when her wound is healed with the help of Apostate Protestantism.

 

[Xenon]

Thank you Sky. I should have noticed it when I looked it up before. And your colored text is helpful. I will imitate it . Here's my analysis of the quote:

In the seventeenth of Revelation is foretold the destruction of all the churches who corrupt themselves by idolatrous devotion to the service of the papacy, those who have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. [Revelation 17:1-4 quoted.] {7BC 983.3}

The underlined portion is a direct reference to the Second Angel's Message. According to it, "Those who have drunk of the wine" are "all nations". Revelation 18:3 echoes this, saying, "all the nations have drunk of the wine". And Revelation 17:3 states that "the inhabitants of the earth" are the ones who drank the wine.

Compare this to the first half of Revelation 17:2. "...with whom the kings of the earth committed fornication". The second half of Revelation 18:3 repeats this again, saying "the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her".

Revelation makes a difference between those who drink the wine, and those who fornicate with Babylon. Kings fornicate with her. People drink her wine. What class do the "churches" belong to? "those who have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication."

--------------------

Thus is represented the papal power, which with all deceivableness of unrighteousness, by outside attraction and gorgeous display, deceives all nations; promising them, as did Satan our first parents, all good to those who receive its mark, and all harm to those who oppose its fallacies. {7BC 983.4}

Revelation 14:9-10 warns, "'If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God'". Who is the appeal made to? Wine drinkers. Who receives the mark? Individuals.

Revelation 13:15 informs us, "He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed." Who is enforcing the mark? A state power. Who gets killed? People who don't receive it. That is, individuals receive the mark.

The appeal isn't made to kings. The appeal is made to people. Benefits are promised for taking the mark, and punishment is threatened for refusing it. The kings supply the power to do this.

--------------------

What is it that gives its kingdom to this power? Protestantism, a power which, while professing to have the temper and spirit of a lamb and to be allied to Heaven, speaks with the voice of a dragon. {7BC 983.5}

Back in Revelation 13:14, the second beast tells "those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast". And in Revelation 13:15, it says, "He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should...speak".

Knowing the the image of the beast is Apostate Protestantism, it is clear that the people produce Apostate Protestantism, not the state. The state tells them to produce it and then allows it to have power. But the people make the image. Therefore, it is Protestantism, which now runs the state, that "speaks with the voice of a dragon."

--------------------

To summarize:

• The "churches" drink wine. Individuals drink wine. Kings fornicate.
• The "churches" receive the mark of the beast. Individuals receive the mark. Kings enforce it.
• The "churches", or Protestantism, speaks with the voice of a dragon. The image of the beast, made by individuals, speaks this way. The beast gives it the ability to speak.

Therefore, unless better evidence is shown, the "churches" can't be the horns. Every identifier that I could find in that quote seems to point to individuals. And this means that the target of the phrase, "In the seventeenth of Revelation is foretold the destruction of all the churches who corrupt themselves by idolatrous devotion to the service of the papacy", is the people, not the horns.

If you can find other identifiers that I have missed that clearly point to the kings, then please share. But this looks to be against that view at the present.

 

[MidnightCry]

Greetings Xenon,

Thank you for your reply.

I understand that in Revelation 17 a woman is depicted as riding a beast.

John is giving us the big picture of the coming global power that consolidates church and state. There are two great powers on Earth. Religion is the higher power and civil authority the lesser power. False religion always unifies these two powers because the carnal nature is not satisfied until absolute power has been achieved. The woman riding the beast represents a one world church state.

Religious power and civil power will unite and persecute the saints all over the globe at the end of time. I think that's the big picture John sees.

Then John wondered and marveled at this woman and the beast she rides and the angel goes into more detail to explain what John is seeing.

Do you agree with this?