five have fallen, one is, and one is yet to come and there is also the eighth...

Xenon

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Midnight, I would agree on most of it. The things that I would disagree on may be my poor comprehension of what you're saying.

I wouldn't say that there is a power that will consolidate church and state, which makes it sound like there is a third power. Instead, I would say that the church brings the state under its authority. But, again, it could be my poor reading of what you wrote.

The woman, as far as I know and have studied anyway, is not a combined church state. It is the false system of religion that has always persecuted God's people, such as in Babylon (Daniel 3), Medo-Persia (Daniel 6 and the book of Esther), Greece (Antiochus Epiphanes IV), Rome (Crucifixion of Christ, Nero's persecution), and so on. Babylon may have different forms, but they all work under the same policy: self-exaltation. And they all used the state to accomplish this.

But to be honest, I need to study the woman more. This is just my present understanding. So we may agree completely :).
 
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I really believe Rev.17 is more simple than it looks. If you take 1798 as the point of reference for the five that have fallen, one is, and one is yet to come, and there is the eighth which is of the seven who was, is not, and is again, everything falls into place.

The point of reference is given to us in verse 3 where it says that John was taken in the Spirit into the wilderness. He was taken into the future where he saw the papacy wounded. To be in the wilderness means to be persecuted. That's what happened at the time of the French Revolution and in 1798 she received a deadly wound at the hand of General Berthier under Napoleon. Since then Atheism, the king of the South, has been pushing at the king of the north. The one that is yet to come is Apostate Protestantism, one of the ten horns. It will receive a kingdom when church and state unite and speak as a dragon. And every country on the globe will follow her example which means that an image to the beast will be made in every nation (major religions (ten horns) will receive a kingdom as they will wield the power of the state) and they will have one mind and they will give their power and authority to the papacy and then her wound will be healed and then the king of the south (atheism in its various manifestations) will be brought into subjection. The whole world will worship the beast and its image except those whose names are written in the book of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

sky
 
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Xenon

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I apologize. I didn't state my position very clearly last post. I'll try again.

My point is that the EGW reference never connects "churches" with "horns" or "kings". Instead, it connects "churches" with "nations". And in each of those Bible texts, "nations" are separate from "kings".

If you could more clearly explain how "churches" connects to "horns" or "kings", then I would have no problem agreeing with you. But I need to be convinced. Right now, I don't see that connection anywhere.
 
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MidnightCry

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I believe John is given a vision of what will occur in the future at the end of time to God's end time people. God is telling us what is coming.

The woman riding the beast represents a consolidated global government of church and state combined that will rule the entire globe. All of the saints living at the end of time will be persecuted. There will be no where to hide.

The woman represents that religious leaders will have control of this power. The church will use the civil powers to make laws to persecute the saints.

This global power, in this vision, is yet in the future. If we continue reading Rev. 17:7 the angel gives more details regarding this global power. Repetition and enlargement is used to tell us more information about this beast.

YSIC,
MidnightCry
 
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MidnightCry

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I apologize. I didn't state my position very clearly last post. I'll try again.

My point is that the EGW reference never connects "churches" with "horns" or "kings". Instead, it connects "churches" with "nations". And in each of those Bible texts, "nations" are separate from "kings".

If you could more clearly explain how "churches" connects to "horns" or "kings", then I would have no problem agreeing with you. But I need to be convinced. Right now, I don't see that connection anywhere.


Greetings Xenon,

Thank you for your reply.

I will try to explain my position more clearly. But you have to take off your Ellen White glasses. Please dont get me wrong. I like EGW. I have alot of her books. I have read alot of her books. I believe God did give her visions and helped the early SDA Church get through the disappointment of 1844.
The cleansing of the temple and the investigative judgement is a very important message that people need to understand.

I also think that EGW does not have the entire truth on end time prophecy. I don't think God wants one person to have the entire picture. He wants His saints to keep reading His word, keep studying, keep discussing. As time progresses and we are closer to the great tribulation, things will become more clear for everyone.

The seven heads represent the seven religious systems of the world. Seven is a complete number. One of the heads was wounded and the wound is healed when this beast appears. This head that was wounded is the papacy. They are seven of the same thing. Rev. 13:1 states that the heads have blasphemous names written on them. This indicates they are religious in nature and they are anti-Christ.

The seven heads are also seven kings. Each religious system is a kingdom having subjects (church members). Each religious system has its own order and authority. Five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he comes he must continue a short time. (Rev. 17:10)

When Jesus came to Earth, five religious systems fell. Jesus declared five religious systems false. Theses are: atheism, heathenism, judaism, eastern mysticism, and islam (the ancient religion of Ishmael).

Christianity was just beginning in John's day. This head is the RCC. It became a false religion and blasphemous over time. The power of the RCC was wounded in 1798. The deadly wound is almost healed. The seventh head appeared on Earth around 1500 AD, and it is called Protestantism. Six of the seven religious systems have endured for 2,000 yrs or more, Protestantism is the newcomer. It will continue for a short time.

Rev. 17:11 the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goes into perdition. This is the devil. He will physically appear and dominate the seven heads. The devil will establish an eighth religious system (the harlot, his great theocracy) and he will rule over the religious systems of the world. The devil will be destroyed at the end, but not by human power.

YSIC,
MidnightCry
 
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Maranatha77

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Hi, I am new to this site. I will like to say is nice to be here. I will like share that I think those evangelists were right...those that taught us about the "crowns" as the symbol of power, such as a kingdom, totalitarian state, dictatorships or a state of supremacy, when trying to ID 7/8 heads of the beast in Rev. 17.

According to Revelation 13, it presents the beast as being formed from those empires addressed in Daniel 7, Babylonian face of the lion, MedoPersian paws of a bear, body of the Greek Leopard, and 10 horns of the Roman Beast(4th beast)....This 5th beast of Rev. 13, is in fact a composite of the previous empires Babylon, MedoPersia, Greece and Rome (likely they have being conquered by his predecessor, on which the beast of Rev. 13 is rooted...In the first part of this chapter=her 10 horns representing her domain(allied or conquered nations) they all have crowns, that, we all know, speaks of kingdoms of the Middle Ages as the domain of Papal Rome(mainly spiritual, and also physical, at one level or another). The later part of Rev.13(when wounded and then revived when sponsored by the lamblike beast and other nations) adresses the same time periods as the Rev. 17 (which is the time of the end)...so I will go directly to Rev. 17. As we being told the "crowns tells us" which power and when it is presented...so in Rev. 17, the beast initially has 10 kings(kingdoms) that are crownless which represent the early part of the time of the end when they have become republics or constitutional kingdoms where the king has no power. This time period of the wounded head due to a loss of support of her domain (since it is weakened by the loss of the crowns)starts in 1798AD to our near future, refering to the 6th head as the Wounded Head of Papal Rome. While the 7th head, it is represented by those 10 kings recuperating their crowns, their power and supporting the Beast....so what is the 8th head...it once again looses the support of her domain(actually those 10horns/10king brake away, and we have a hornless beast)..those same horns (guided by God) rebel, destroy the women/beast...at Armageddon (together with the earthquake that there takes place)...the beast is described as being destroyed by both her previous allies and the earthquake...

so the women/beast (because being a chimera it is wrong to separate it into its component, to do so means not to be able to understand the symbol, actually in Rev. 17 when speaking of the beast is speaking of the women and vise versa...and this is there told...

but any way the list as I being told is the one well known among us...and extrapolating the sequence, considering that an 8th head follows the 7th ....then the next stage following the Revive head, where it persecutes....is the 8th head, when losing its political support, its crowns...no longer can persecute...
and it is destroyed by her previous allies...which rebel against her...

(head..is the beast at an specific time period)..

the 7th-Revived.Head is followed by the defeate 8th head... which is the stage when Papal Rome is deafeast at Armageddon...it is punished...

and goes to perdition(which represents that once again it is defeated, lost her crowns, lost the support of the 10 kings, all that described in Rev. 17)...

then we can say that the 8th head is the Re-Wounded Head, the defeated beast at Armageddon and associated 2nd coming...(likely extending to the postmillennial sentencing and execution in the lake of fire and brimstone)....The APOSTATE PAPAL ROME IS PUNISHED...AS THE 8TH HEAD...

At the spiritual level, Satan the dragon, goes through the same stages....with his final phase being its final destructive phase, of punitive judgments...

the 7 heads....to his death as the 8th head=

1)Babylon
2)MedoPersia
3)Greece
4)Imperial Rome
5)Papal Rome Supreme=of the Middle Ages
6)Papal Rome Wounded= of the time of the end, first part
7)Papal Rome re.Supreme/Revived=of the time of the end, later part
8)Papal Rome re.Wounded (this time fatal, goes to perdition), of the very end...

An important concept, in real life, as in the symbolic use of animals to represent kingdoms or empires, is the fact that the animal as a whole represent the whole empire(and a part of the symbol head, tail, horns or nails, speak of the same entity, not a different one)....As such the whole empire is symbolized by the animal with his head and horns....more specifically the beast itself is the seat of the empire while its
horns represent its domain ...for example the Russian Empire (aka soviet Union), which was Russia ruling her allied nations, all forming a unity ...the empire...
as such the Roman Papal Empire is formed by itself as ruler and allied kingdoms its domain....and when a unity they function as such...the moment that the empire fragmented (lost the 10 horns, lost her allies) Russia was left on her own..the fallen horns now becoming independent nations...which turned her back on her, and may fight with her(example of the nations of Ukraine or Georgia)...in like manner the beast's 10 kings, broke away, and fought with her...this is the 8th head...all this happening at Armageddon.

Simply said, the 8th head speaks of the demise of the beast, her destruction...goes to perdition...at Armageddon I, and Armageddon II...Is the destruction of the apostate church state...Papal Rome.....This is told in the following verses=

Rev 17:16 And the ten horns(KINGDOMS OF THE WORLD) which thou sawest upon the beast these shall hate the harlot(PAPAL ROME) , and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

(remember the 10 horns separate from the beast, and then turn against her..against the women/beast, since they are a unit...Just look at Papal Rome...can anybody separate its religious side from its political side....no...to do so is to kill the beast...

To burned the beast...is the same as to burn the women...because both are a unit, a chimera...This concept of unity is told =

Remembering=
beast= kingdoms, nation, city
women= church
10 Horns= 10 kings = 10 Mountains = 10 kingdoms

Speaking of Babylon the Great=
Rev 17:18 And the woman(CHURCH) which thou sawest is that great city(STATE, KINGDOM, BEAST), which reigneth over the kings of the earth(10 KINGS, 10 KINGDOMS).

women/beast = church/state

BABYLON THE GREAT IS TOLD TO BE THAT CHURCH/STATE which reigns over the kingdoms of the world(themselves also religious given who governs them)
=Papal Rome's Empire=the ruler and the ones ruled...

So...the 8th head..."is not"...because it lost her power...was because the previous period was powerful(7th head resupreme)...rewounded just like the 6th head was, which lost her powers and allies...and one of the 7's, because she is Papal Rome which was also of the 7s...

God bless,
maranatha

PS, in the 6th head the wound was not quite mortal..but close
bu in the 8h head..the wound is terminal...
the story of the heads of the dragon/beast...is the story of the dragon itself...
because whatever happen to his wicked people, and the influence that they may or may not have reflects the power of the dragon/Satan in this earth

So there are two levels of understanding of the beast/dragon...
at the cosmic level...the history of Satan...
at he microcosmic level..the historia of the empire on earth that did his bidding...
 
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stinsonmarri

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Midnight you stated: This is getting so confusing. Then some of the others made even more confusing with these comments: The ten horns are not always the same powers. Mrs. White in Bible Commentary states that these horns are "churches" of which Protestantism is the first. If the powers in this vision change from world powers to religious ones, that creates confusion to the understanding of the vision, imo.


I have said repeatedly that you have to understand ancient history and what symbols represent through the finding of ancient time. I will answer these things for you and show what EGW actually meant which was correct.


What do the seven heads and ten horns represent on this beast? Head means empire, seven means complete. Read Gen 2:1-3. There have only been seven known empire that conqueror the known world and they also dealt with Elohim's people. You must put both of these things together because they are equally important. The Empires are Assyria, Egypt, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Greco-Rome, and Papacy Rome. Ten is a number that represent universal or the entire earth. Horns also represent power as kingdoms but the difference with an empire is captures and control more than one kingdom. However, the ten kingdom of Europe has affected the entire earth universally. Remember another horn came up out of the then and pluck up three of the ten horns which, history once again compliments the Bible. The Bible makes it clear that three of the ten horns on the head of the beast were pluck by the roots and they are the Vandals in A.D. 455, the Heruli in 493 and finally the Ostrogoths in 538. These three kings had a religion called Arianism that Satan attempted to defeat the prophecy of Catholicism rule. It did not work and the Papacy moved from a church religion into both political and religious rule. The hold that Greco-Rome once held struggled as the empire began to crumble into separate kingdoms. Many of the ten kingdoms kept the faith but three and the three kingdoms were becoming powerful. If they had continued to survive, they would have changed the religious belief of the Catholic Church. Yahweh in His wisdom had already provided the historical story that Catholicism would rule. Now the Papacy became so powerful that he became an emperor and ruled most of Germany, Austria except Burgenland, the Czech Republic, Switzerland and Liechtenstein, the Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg and Slovenia except Prekmurje, parts of eastern France mainly Artois, Alsace, Franche-Comté, French Flanders, Savoy and Lorraine, northern Italy mainly Lombardy, Piedmont, Emilia-Romagna, Tuscany, Trentino and South Tyrol, and western Poland mainly Silesia, Pomerania and Neumark. The other countries still yield to Catholicism as their national religion but not under her secular rule.


John saw seven heads and 10 horns three times in Revelation. The first time is recorded in Chapter 12. This beast is clearly explained as a dragon (Satan), which is totally different from Dan 7:7 described in verse 8, 19, and 20. More detail is provided in Rev 13 and 17. Listen each head had the name of blasphemy together with the eight that was not mention in Daniel. Here is the clue that you all seen to overlook blasphemy that has to do with religion. I will repeat all of these beasts dealt with the religion of each kingdom. They were all against the Elohim of Heaven and their worship was blasphemy against the Most High. The last three combined all of the other four empires religion together with theirs. All kingdoms, empires, countries (that is what they are called today) have a state religion-all countries in the past and now. There has never been a kingdom without a national religion. Many had force other people to serve their religion but not like the last three religions. Greco-Rome became Papal Rome and it became the worst because the religion dominated the secular power. What EGW indicated in Rev 17 is clear about the kings of the earth. First, you must follow and understand history. When the reformation came which created the Protestants believers they were churches who left the Catholic Church but not totally. All of the false feast days of the Catholic Church the Protestants churches kept which included the weekly feast of Sunday. Read the question about changing the feast days by the Catholic Church! She states the main feast day changed was Sunday-dah! The annual ones are Valentine, Easter, Whitsuntide (Catholic Pentecost), Halloween, Christmas, and New Years. YAHWEH'S are the Sabbath (weekly), Feast of Unleavened (two days holy convocation), Feast of Weeks or Pentecost (always on a Sunday, holy convocation), Seventh Month Blowing of the Trumpet ( each new moon or month you are suppose to come and worship, but the seventh month is a holy convocation), Day of Atonement (man's sabbath a serious day of repentance with a complete fast, name could be blotted out of the Book of Life), Feast of Tabernacle (two days holy convocation).


The papacy is no longer an empire she lost her secular rule but to prove she is recognized as kingdom she is the only church that sits as a kingdom in the United Nation! They also have embassies around the world folks no other church has that type of power. Therefore, she is still powerful in religious matters and has all the countries of the world including communism and even some Islamic countries have committed fornication with her. The Protestant Countries (USA, Canada, Britian, and Germany) have drunk of her wine. They still obey what she has blasphemed against YAHWHEH'S truth and her false worship. Finally, one of her own kind will turn on her he is the eighth that comes out of her. She is now a woman who still have the kings that united with her accept one. USA will also leave her state religion-Protestant; look around folks, homosexual marriage, abortion, the rise of all type of vices. If you think that the Republicans will come back in power, they will not! Why, they will force Evangelical Protestantism on America. That cannot be because the Bible said this world would be like Noah and Sodom. It cannot be if the Republicans and the Tea Party are in control. Look at what they are doing to the States since 2010. The Bible says that this will never happen and if I were you all I would watch the news, look a Mormon running for the presidency and racism is out of control again. Women's rights and their health are being put down. In the next few years a man here will join with the beast/man and the Protestants, Catholics will flee to Jerusalem (Babylon) because all have join in with the harlot. The Jews accepting Elohim false name, Haiti Vodun/Catholic, Cuba Sanatoria/Catholic, Puerto Rico and Dominican Republic Vudu/, Brazil Candomblé Jejé in (which uses the term Vodum)/Catholic and all throughout Afrika and their various religion mixed with Catholicism. There are other religions as well mixed with the harlot. Read history people and their religions!


Have a happy Sabbath and the Feast of Unleavened Bread,


stinsonmarri
 
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Maranatha77

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Hi, one final point...
the heads belong to the beast, is her history through time, as such the time when the women/beast is presented is determined by her own status, not the one of the prophet.
We need to find the time of the prophecy by the events and conditions there presented, not by the condition of the prophet or the time he lives in.

Therefore, Daniel 8 telling us that the little horn aka beast is Papal Rome,
then in order to know the time factor of when this beast is presented, we need to find it in the prophecy itself not outside of it...

As such, in Rev. 13 first part, we have the beast with horns each with a crown...Rome Supreme of the Middle Ages...
then in the same chapter it tells us that she also gets wounded, which is presented also in Rev. 17 first part when we are seeing the women sitting on a beast which horns have lost their crowns(their powers),...being powerless..it is wounded...
This wounded stage is localized in Papal history as starting in 1798AD when it was attacked and wounded, losing its powers...this extends forwards...and although it is healing ..yet the hallmark of complete healing which is what the 7th Revived Head is all about, is still in our future...it is the moment in time when Papal Rome can once again set religious persecutive laws in our land.....in the world...

Revelation 17 shows us the last 3 heads of the beast...the 6th wounded, the 7th Revived/Persecutive...and the final 8th as her demise...goes to perdition...
These phases of Papal Rome...her kingdom during the time of the end...is what is being told in Rev. 17...and just like I can have a healthy head, which then gets broken, but eventually heals...therefore we are speaking of the same head through different stages.......the same nation, the same empire, Papal Rome during her variable life....until finding its death in the 8th head...

the women/beast in the wilderness is the one presented in Rev. 17 and its presented during her wounded phase since 1798Ad to our modern times to end in the near future...th fact that the beast/women is in the wilderness means that the throne of Papal Rome will be set up in USA, in the United Nations...from there she will, with the aid of her frontman USA/ allied apostates.protestant.nations (the false prophet) rule the earth...

USA, by allying itself with Papal Rome, becomes one of her horns, and will get a crown because USA goes in a path to becoming a kingdom, a dictatorship..
...certainly USA will be the greatest helper in submitting other nations under the women/beast, Papal Rome rules...

6th head = wounded head= Papal Rome lost her powers(although regining them)...our modern times...

7th head=
Babylon the Great ruling the kingdoms of the world(10 kings,/10 horns)...
is the New World Order...

8th head...the fall of Babylon the Great...the fall of Papal Rome....the defeat of the New World Order...

So...in any picture or movie one sees...the time of the movie/ prophecy never has to do with the life of the viewer ...instead the period the picture presents has solely to do with when the scene is taking place...So if we are seeing the second coming of Christ in the scene of the movie...the time of that movie (or vision) would be in our future... So it is in the movie that we find the date of the movie...not in the time of us as viewers. (now if the movie is describing our life...that is another story)...

Since the beast has being documented to represent Papal Rome, as per Daniel 8 correlation, and since the women/beast is presented as a weak state, as powerless,
given the symbols.... Rev. 13 starts from her Supreme period when her horns had crowns, were kingdoms...the kingdom of the middle ages....

But the vision of Rev. 17 starts at a later time, she is presented already drunk from her persecutions during the previous phase, and her horns have lost her crowns(what belong to the horns, belongs to the women/beast or lack thereof)...this presentation of the women is initially addressing her wounded time or loss of powers, correlates with our present times...when regaining the powers or crowns, this is in the future

Since the symbol crown determines which stage of her history is being told... that tells the time that the vision is addressing....

In Rev. 17....3 phases of the women/beast are being told....
the 6th as wounded.nocrowns, 7th as revived.hascrowns...and the and 8th as her demise...looses her crowns...

speaking of crowns, as power= means as having the support from her domain....or the presence or absence of it...

+crowns=
power = support of her allies...which are themselves kingdoms/totalitarian nations /dictatorships...

-crowns=
In the event the nation ceases to be a kingdom or dictatorship, or by her own wish retires her support of the women/beast, and separates braking their alliance...all these speaks of her loss of crowns

God bless,
maranatha
 
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Maranatha77

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Hi,
Mrs. White speaks of the horns as churches as you said...this likely refers to the fact that this nations are in fact church/states.....exactly what Papal Rome is ...a Church/State....since the animal is a church/state...to make an image of the animal means that one is copying her, as such one also becoming a church/state...
USA and the other nations...all will become church/state, under the direction of Papal Rome....certainly for a short time...the 7th head....
this union will fragment into 3 pieces that formed their union...
1)
Papal Rome- the women/beast
2)
The false prophet=Apostate protestant nations
3)
the dragon- Pagan nations
at a higher level...Satan controlling all of them...

1+2+3 = the final generation of the wicked...all the wicked alive.

Rev 16:13-14 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

THE GREAT CITY = THE GREAT EMPIRE= BABYLON THE GREAT=
SEAT/PAPAL ROME + DOMAIN/THE KINGDOMS OF THE WORLD=

DOMAIN= APOSTATE PROTESTANTS AND PAGANS....

Rev 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
that city...is Vatican City....Papal Rome...
is both a women(church) and a beast(a state, city, nation)....
and rulling the 10 kings= means ruling the kingdoms of the world...
all...becoming church states...the image of the beast....
 
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ricker

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If you want to see church/states, you have to look no farther than the many countries that are based on Islam.

Here is a qoute from Separation Of Church And State  Dr

So how are Muslims to approach the modern trend of separation of religion and state in their countries? The basic belief in Islam is that the Qur'an is one hundred percent the word of God, and the Sunna was also as a result of the guidance of God to the Prophet peace be upon him. Islam cannot be separated from the state because it guides Muslims through every detail of running the state and their lives. Muslims have no choice but to reject secularism for it excludes the laws of God.
 
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NumberOneSon

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The Bible makes it clear that three of the ten horns on the head of the beast were pluck by the roots and they are the Vandals in A.D. 455, the Heruli in 493 and finally the Ostrogoths in 538.
I believe you meant 534AD; The Vandals only sacked Rome in 455AD.

These three kings had a religion called Arianism that Satan attempted to defeat the prophecy of Catholicism rule.
Arianism was Satan’s attempt to defeat the prophecy of Catholic rule? That sounds like something a 6th Century Catholic would have said, lol.

Many of the ten kingdoms kept the faith but three and the three kingdoms were becoming powerful.
None of the ten kingdoms had “the faith” at that time; they were all either Arian or pagan. The first of the kingdoms to convert to Catholic Christianity were the Franks in the 6th Century, but that only happened some 15 years after the fall of Odoacer’s “Heruli” kingdom in Italy in 493AD.

If they had continued to survive, they would have changed the religious belief of the Catholic Church.
Nah, there was never any real danger of that happening. Catholicism had the numbers and the infrastructure to stand the test of time. The Arianism of the barbarian tribes couldn’t match that.

“Yet the ultimate triumph of Catholicism in Italy was probably never seriously in doubt. After all, the Arians, whether Goths or Lombards, were in the decided minority. The great mass of the population was Catholic. The invaders were inferior in culture to the conquered and must almost inevitably be assimilated by them. As the amalgamation proceeded, Arianism would disappear. Moreover, in its organization Arianism was at a disadvantage. It tended to split into churches dependent on monarchs. In contrast with it was Catholicism, with its hierarchy strongly entrenched in the life of Italy, its bishops often the chief representatives of Roman culture. Then, too, the Arians had nothing equivalent to the Papacy. While that had not yet developed all the powers which it later possessed, it was a centre around which Catholics, and especially those of the city of Rome, could rally, and under a Pontiff like Gregory I it gave aggressive leadership to their forces.”
(Latourette’s History of the Expansion of Christianity, Kenneth Latourette, Vol. II, pg. 26)

“The Arian bishops took their fill of court favour and influence while it lasted, but made no provision for the future. They stood apart from one another in stupid and ignorant isolation. Untouched apparently by the great Augustinian thought of the world-encompassing City of God, they tended more and more to form local, tribal Churches, one for the Visigoths, another for the Vandals, another for the Burgundians. And thus in the end the fable of the loosened planks and the broken sticks was proved true of all the Arian monarchies.”
(Italy and Her Invaders, Thomas Hodgkin, Vol. III)

“The Arianism, indeed, of the Goths had not the fresh ardour of burning zeal of recent proselytism. It was a kind of religious accident, arising out of their first conversion, which happened to take place during the reign of an Arian Emperor, and through Arian missionaries. It had settled into a quiet hereditary faith. There was no peculiar congeniality in its tenets with the Teutonic mind, which was rather disposed to receive what it was taught with implicit faith; and, though no doubt averse to the subtleties of the Greek theology, neither comprehended, nor cared to comprehend, these controversies. It was content to adhere to the original creed, or, possibly, might feel some pride in differing from the abject race, over which it asserted its civil and military superiority.”
(History of Latin Christianity, H.H. Milman, Vol. I, pg. 384)
 
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I believe you meant 534AD; The Vandals only sacked Rome in 455AD. Typing mistake thanks.


Arianism was Satan’s attempt to defeat the prophecy of Catholic rule? That sounds like something a 6th Century Catholic would have said, lol. This is according to History my friend.


After their conversion to Arianism, the Goths split (into the western Goths or Visigoths, and the eastern Goths or Ostrogoths). The Ostrogoths, who settled into almost-wholly-Catholic Italy, gradually shed Arianism over a period of time. The Vandal kingdom was defeated by Emperor Justinian and his general Belisarius in the early 6th century and was won over to eastern Catholicism. Where they settled in Spain, the Visigoths retained Arianism until the late 6th century when their king, Reccared I, converted to Catholicism, inspiring most of the rest of his Arian subjects to do the same, and suppressing a revolt by a minority who did not.


That the barbarian kingdoms had been a refuge for Arianism had an interesting effect: By the 6th century most all of the Arians in the former Roman Empire were living in these kingdoms; Arianism had lurked in pockets throughout the central and western Empire, but these had largely dried up outside of the Vandal and Gothic kingdoms. When these regions went over to Catholicism, this had the effect of virtually wiping out Arianism. http://www.earlychristianhistory.info/index.html


None of the ten kingdoms had “the faith” at that time; they were all either Arian or pagan. The first of the kingdoms to convert to Catholic Christianity were the Franks in the 6th Century, but that only happened some 15 years after the fall of Odoacer’s “Heruli” kingdom in Italy in 493AD. The faith I was referring to was Catholicism.


Nah, there was never any real danger of that happening. Catholicism had the numbers and the infrastructure to stand the test of time. The Arianism of the barbarian tribes couldn’t match that.


However, much of southeastern Europe and central Europe, including many of the Goths and Vandals respectively, had embraced Arianism (the Visigoths converted to Arian Christianity in 376), which led to Arianism being a religious factor in various wars in the Roman Empire. In the west, organized Arianism survived in North Africa, in Hispania, and parts of Italy until it was finally suppressed in the 6th and 7th centuries. Grimwald, King of the Lombards (662–671), and his young son and successor Garibald (671), were the last Arian kings in Europe. From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


There were more German Tribes who accepted the Arian belief but was not as organized like Clovis and other Catholic reformers during this time. Read the Decline of the Roman Empire by Gibbons


“Yet the ultimate triumph of Catholicism in Italy was probably never seriously in doubt. After all, the Arians, whether Goths or Lombards, were in the decided minority. The great mass of the population was Catholic. The invaders were inferior in culture to the conquered and must almost inevitably be assimilated by them. As the amalgamation proceeded, Arianism would disappear. Moreover, in its organization Arianism was at a disadvantage. It tended to split into churches dependent on monarchs. In contrast with it was Catholicism, with its hierarchy strongly entrenched in the life of Italy, its bishops often the chief representatives of Roman culture. Then, too, the Arians had nothing equivalent to the Papacy. While that had not yet developed all the powers which it later possessed, it was a centre around which Catholics, and especially those of the city of Rome, could rally, and under a Pontiff like Gregory I it gave aggressive leadership to their forces.”

(Latourette’s History of the Expansion of Christianity, Kenneth Latourette, Vol. II, pg. 26)



These German Tribes were large and powerful the Vandals had sack Rome, but they were not united. If they had been, they could have defeated the Catholics. For a while though the popery problem of the Catholic Church they grew but they also did not unite together as the Catholics did under Clovis and Charlemagne.


“The Arian bishops took their fill of court favour and influence while it lasted, but made no provision for the future. They stood apart from one another in stupid and ignorant isolation. Untouched apparently by the great Augustinian thought of the world-encompassing City of God, they tended more and more to form local, tribal Churches, one for the Visigoths, another for the Vandals, another for the Burgundians. And thus in the end the fable of the loosened planks and the broken sticks was proved true of all the Arian monarchies.”
(Italy and Her Invaders, Thomas Hodgkin, Vol. III)

“The Arianism, indeed, of the Goths had not the fresh ardour of burning zeal of recent proselytism. It was a kind of religious accident, arising out of their first conversion, which happened to take place during the reign of an Arian Emperor, and through Arian missionaries. It had settled into a quiet hereditary faith. There was no peculiar congeniality in its tenets with the Teutonic mind, which was rather disposed to receive what it was taught with implicit faith; and, though no doubt averse to the subtleties of the Greek theology, neither comprehended, nor cared to comprehend, these controversies. It was content to adhere to the original creed, or, possibly, might feel some pride in differing from the abject race, over which it asserted its civil and military superiority.”

(History of Latin Christianity, H.H. Milman, Vol. I, pg. 384)

If you read what you provided prove my point they were not united!



Happy Sabbath
stinsonmarri
 
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NumberOneSon

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Typing mistake thanks.
No problem.

This is according to History my friend.
That Arianism was inspired by Satan to stop Catholicism’s prophetic rule? That part of it is definitely personal belief, not history.

After their conversion to Arianism, the Goths split (into the western Goths or Visigoths, and the eastern Goths or Ostrogoths). The Ostrogoths, who settled into almost-wholly-Catholic Italy, gradually shed Arianism over a period of time. The Vandal kingdom was defeated by Emperor Justinian and his general Belisarius in the early 6th century and was won over to eastern Catholicism. Where they settled in Spain, the Visigoths retained Arianism until the late 6th century when their king, Reccared I, converted to Catholicism, inspiring most of the rest of his Arian subjects to do the same, and suppressing a revolt by a minority who did not.

That the barbarian kingdoms had been a refuge for Arianism had an interesting effect: By the 6th century most all of the Arians in the former Roman Empire were living in these kingdoms; Arianism had lurked in pockets throughout the central and western Empire, but these had largely dried up outside of the Vandal and Gothic kingdoms. When these regions went over to Catholicism, this had the effect of virtually wiping out Arianism. Early Christian History Home Page

I agree with the summary overall (except the writer is wrong about the Ostrogoths and Vandals shedding Arianism and coming over to “Eastern Catholicism”…that never happened).

Arianism losing out to Catholicism? That’s history. The part about Satan inspiring Arianism? That’s personal opinion.

The faith I was referring to was Catholicism.
That’s the faith I was referring to as well. None of the barbarian tribes in the West were Catholic at the time when the “Heruli”, Vandal, and Ostrogothic kingdoms were becoming powerful; they were all either pagan or Arian. Like I said before, the first of the kingdoms to convert to Catholic Christianity were the Franks in the 6th Century, but that only happened some 15 years after the fall of Odoacer’s “Heruli” kingdom in Italy in 493AD. Before that, they were all Arian or pagan.

There were more German Tribes who accepted the Arian belief but was not as organized like Clovis and other Catholic reformers during this time. Read the Decline of the Roman Empire by Gibbons

I don’t contest the information in the Wiki article or in Gibbon’s work for that matter. The fact that, as you said, the Arian clergy were not organized, the fact that the various tribes were a decided minority among vastly larger Catholic populations, the fact that the Arians were inferior in culture and gradually assimilated the Roman culture, the fact that the Arians did not have a central spiritual authority like a pope, the fact that they functioned as autonomous conclaves around individual monarchs, the fact that none of the Arian kingdoms besides the Vandals had any interest in forcing their faith on the Roman population and expanding Arianism’s reach; all of these factors should lead us to recognize that there was no real danger of Arianism changing the beliefs of the Catholic Church, and the historical record bears that out. The Germanic roots of Arianism were far too shallow to be a serious threat to Catholicism.

These German Tribes were large and powerful the Vandals had sack Rome, but they were not united. If they had been, they could have defeated the Catholics.

The tribes were probably small in number compared to the Roman populations in each kingdom. For example, some writers estimate that around 350,000 Visigoths established their kingdom among 9 million Hispano-Romans, making the Visigoths just 4.5% of the population. Others go as low as 3.5%. I’ve seen a similar disparity regarding the Lombard kingdom, and this disparity was probably standard throughout all of the barbarian kingdoms within the Roman Empire.

Yes, the tribes were powerful, but they were not interested in “defeating” Catholics; the Roman population within each kingdom was vital to their respective economies and in maintaining the civil machinery which helped their kingdoms to flourish. Besides maybe the Vandals, the other Germanic kingdoms were not really interested in destroying Catholicism; they were satisfied with their subjects having their own beliefs. The Ostrogothic kingdom was especially notable for decreeing freedom of religion within its legislation.

For a while though the popery problem of the Catholic Church they grew but they also did not unite together as the Catholics did under Clovis and Charlemagne.
Not exactly sure what you were trying to get across regarding the first part of that statement.

If you read what you provided prove my point they were not united!
Right, they were not united, and the disunity and isolationism exhibited by the Arian clergy, along with all of the other factors I mentioned earlier, made it inherently difficult for Arianism to change Catholicism.
 
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I don't know if we are all talking about the same beast. I will try to clarify which beast I am talking about.

I am trying to identify the beast in Rev. 17. A woman is pictured riding a beast.

Rev. 17:7: Then the angel said to me: "Why are you astonished? I will explain to your the mystery of the woman and of the beast she rides, which has the seven heads and ten horns. The beast, which you say, once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction.

This is the beast that John sees come out of the sea. Rev. 13.

Rev. 13 tells us the beast had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on his horns, and on each head a blasphemous name.

Rev. 13 also tells us one of the heads of the beast seemed to have a had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was astonished and followed the beast.

This is a future beast that has not appeared yet. The beast when it appears will have a head with a fatal wound that will be healed when it appears. The head with the fatal wound is the RCC. Which we all know received a fatal wound in 1798. That wound has not been healed as of this time. It is in the process of being healed.

This beast hasn't even appeared yet. It is still future. Why are you all saying I need to look at ancient history to identify this beast?

The woman riding the beast is a religious power that will control a civil power, in other words a global church state. This power will persecute the saints at the end of time.

The seven heads represent seven religious systems of the world that are an insult to God. The seven heads represent the religious power, the ten horns represent the civil power.

If you look at Rev. 12, you will see that seven crowns rested on the seven heads, but in this prophecy the crowns rest on the ten horns. This means there is a change in persecuting authority. For 1,260 years, religious authorities persecuted the woman. During the Great Tribulation, civil authorities will persecute the remnant of the woman.

John is given a vision of the future that applies to the saints that will be alive during the great tribulation.

YSIC,
MidnightCry
 
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stinsonmarri

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I don't know if we are all talking about the same beast. I will try to clarify which beast I am talking about.

I am trying to identify the beast in Rev. 17. A woman is pictured riding a beast. The point midnight Daniel 7, 13, 17 is the same beast. We all have said on numerous occasions that Daniel and Revelation is the same book but we do not actually mean it. What is so hard to see that the Beasts in Dan 7 deals with the religious beliefs and Elohim used different beast symbols to express this prophetic view. If you look in Chapter 8 two of the same beasts are depicted exactly as they are in the history books. This is their political powers and Elohim gave the religious beast symbols for a reason then show the actual beast historical symbols representing their political powers and how Rome would come out of the goat. Elohim knew that Satan would have everyone believe that Rome was the fourth beast of Daniel 7 and that was not true. Greco Rome religion as all seven empires religion was a part of the fourth beast that is why the Bible stated clearly that this beast was different from the other three. Different because this beast would cover history through the end of time. Revelation just simply picks up where Daniel left off in time!


Rev. 17:7: Then the angel said to me: "Why are you astonished? I will explain to your the mystery of the woman and of the beast she rides, which has the seven heads and ten horns. The beast, which you say, once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction. This is the beast that John sees come out of the sea. Rev. 13.



I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. Dan 7:11




Isn't the same thing read this:

And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. Rev 19:20

Same thing!!!!!!

Rev. 13 tells us the beast had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on his horns, and on each head a blasphemous name. Rev. 13 also tells us one of the heads of the beast seemed to have a had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was astonished and followed the beast. This is a future beast that has not appeared yet. The beast when it appears will have a head with a fatal wound that will be healed when it appears. The head with the fatal wound is the RCC. Which we all know received a fatal wound in 1798. That wound has not been healed as of this time. It is in the process of being healed. This beast hasn't even appeared yet. It is still future. Why are you all saying I need to look at ancient history to identify this beast? Midnight Ancient History repeats itself. Look at the fads of today, ancient. There is nothing new under the sun. Nimrod is presented also in Revelation 17 as the first was, is not now who lasted only a short time was the Papacy, who is now is the 8th and main head is the beast himself. Follow the mystery and it will be reveal that Satan from the beginning in the Garden used the serpent (who actually was a dragon because he could fly). Now Satan is identified by the serpent that was a flying creature until it sinned and was curse by Elohim. This whole theme is about Elohim true religion against Satan's false religions. Nimrod went against Elohim and from the dispersion, all nations took part of the false religion with them. Seven Empires had false religions that all nations of the world still keep today in one form of another. Three of the last empires religions had certain aspects today Midnight that Protestants still observed and we are been warned. It was through the Catholic Church that all these false religions have united under one umbrella. The Protestants attempted reform but fail and now the last Church with the message has gone astray but a group within will triumph and finish Elohim's message. Many people will come out of these other churches and religions just before the seven last plagues fall during the end of the Time of Trouble.


The woman riding the beast is a religious power that will control a civil power, in other words a global church state. This power will persecute the saints at the end of time. The seven heads represent seven religious systems of the world that are an insult to God. The seven heads represent the religious power, the ten horns represent the civil power.If you look at Rev. 12, you will see that seven crowns rested on the seven heads, but in this prophecy the crowns rest on the ten horns. This means there is a change in persecuting authority. For 1,260 years, religious authorities persecuted the woman. During the Great Tribulation, civil authorities will persecute the remnant of the woman. John is given a vision of the future that applies to the saints that will be alive during the great tribulation. You are partial right, but here is the facts the woman rides the beast and who is the beast? He is the eighth and final head who was under the woman's teaching. However, he turns on her Midnight read the whole Chapter. Remember it's a mystery and you need the wisdom of Elohim. Elohim provided wisdom through history which help to piece the facts together like a puzzle. The woman was once a head but lost her political powers but not her religious power. She will unite her children back into her fold also the Jews who have left Elohim. They want Jerusalem "the great city" now it has every foul and false religion there. Have you been there, I used to live there years ago. Catholicism is the Queen there now and the Protestants are here champions carrying out her commands. She will go after the saints, but they are not afraid they are an army doing what Moses and Elijah did. They will produce miracles and bring famine on her and she will not be able to stop them. Many will come out and accept Elohim's truth during the Great Tribulation. Meanwhile her greatest enemy that she once taught (rode remember) is aided by Satan. All of Satan's angels will be allowed to come back with the beast to wreck havoc on the wicked. There are two evil foes on the earth Midnight one claims he is both the Father, and the Son-the Papacy. The other states he owes his allegiance to Satan and now he has become his son-get it (copy cats). The two cannot exist together and Elohim words will come true the harlot and her foe along with Jerusalem will be destroyed in the greatest earth battle. This battle will take place between the six and seven plagues and just before the seventh trumpet blows. If I were you, I would read Daniel Seventh through Twelfth along with Revelation Fourth through Nineteenth they are the same exact historical story of the past, present and future. That my friend is history!


Blessings,
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MidnightCry

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stinsonmarri:

The beast in Daniel 7 is not the same as the Beast in Rev 13,17.

In Daniel 7 the ten horns are ten tribal kings: Goths, Ostrogoths, Vandals, Burgundians, Franks, Lombards, Alameni, Suevi, Anglo-Saxons, and Heruli.

The eighth horn is a religious king who endures for more than twelve centuries.

The eighth horn uproots three of these tribal nations.
The eighth horn dominates the other seven for 1,260 years.
The eighth horn represents the RCC. (Satan is working through the church to persecute the saints.)

After 1,260 years the power of the RCC is temporarily terminated.

The only part of the beast that rises again to persecute the saints is the RCC.
Satan will work through religious power again at the end of time.

The ten tribal nations listed above will not rise again. They do not appear again at the end of time.

The beast in Rev 13 and 17 has seven heads and ten horns and upon his horns ten crowns. Where are the seven heads in Dan 7? Why are there crowns on the horns? Why is the name of blasphemy written on the seven heads?

The ten horns in Rev 7 represent ten kings that will rule for a short time along with satan at the end of time. That's why they are wearing crowns of authority.

The seven heads represent the seven religious systems of the world that are present now and at the end of time. That is why one head has a wound that had been healed. It is the papal power. Persecuting again.

The beast in Rev 13 and 17 cannot appear out of the sea until the wound is healed. The beast will appear in the future. The RCC is still healing from the wound inflicted in 1798. She has not returned to a world power yet. But she will.

How can you say the beast in Dan 7 is the same as the beast in Rev 13 and 17?

YSIC,
MidnightCry
 
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I'll be blunt. You believe that the 7 trumpets are to be fulfilled in the future. This is despite Josiah Litch's application of the 6th trumpet being fulfilled to the very day. And it is also despite Ellen White's writings on the subject. You haven't taken off your Ellen White glasses. You've denied that she is a prophet.

Daniel 12:10 tells us that the wicked will not understand, but the wise will. The 6th trumpet's fulfillment is an amazing fulfillment of prophecy, yet you deny it. I don't know what iniquity is in your life that has a hold on you. But for your own sake, please give it up. Satan will continue to use it against you, and you will be miserable under his rule.

I don't say this harshly. I am honestly worried for you.

Actually, I wanted to discuss the beast in Rev. 13 and 17 in this thread.

I believe you are referring to the fall of the Ottoman Empire in 1840.

The war waged against the Sultan of Turkey in 1840 actually ended in 1841 without significant changes in territory. From 1783 to 1914, the boundaries of the Ottoman Empire were increasingly reduced through a series of defeats. During WWI, Turkey allied with Germany and lost even more territory. Today, historians widely agree that the Ottoman Empire ended during WWI. In 1923, the Grand National Assembly of Turkey proclaimed Turkey to be a republic and Turkey remains a sovereign nation to this day.

History does not validate that the Ottoman Empire fell on August 11, 1840 and it is no surprise that history does not give August 11, 1840 any significance in Turkish history.

Litch's error occurred in 1840 and he recanted his error shortly after 1844. Josiah Litch published a book in 1873 titled A Complete Harmony of Daniel and the Apocalypse, in which he stated the first four trumpets will be literal events that will occur in the future. Dr. Litch believed the first three trumpets will come as judgments from God and they will consist of fiery meteors and two asteroid impacts.

YSIC,
MidnightCry
 
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