Staff and Member discussion thread.

[Lulav]

I think everyone here is aware of that. I don't think there are any mandatory Torah observance thread in either that forum or the main one.

A few questions here.

Why does our SoF have to come from an MJ organization? We are not all part of them.​

Then petition the staff to change the SoP.

:o Why such a sarcastic remark?

Originally Posted by Lulav

The biggest part of the problems of late is not about how much or how little someone keeps Torah, but actually who it is for and who should and who shouldn't.​

Is this not one in the same issue?

Noooo, it is not. One concerns how frum one is or is not, the other I was speaking of is if it should be Jews only that keep Torah (both Messianic and Non-Messianic) or For Gentiles to keep as well. Big difference.

Never heard of personal hypocrisy, it's rather and oxymoron is it not. We do not tell ourselves we obey something or keep a commandment we don't, unless some of us are bi-polar or schizophrenic and I doubt that's the case.

No, the term addresses the level of hypocricy we are willing to live within. And yes, many people do lie to themselves.

I don't see what that has to do with posting online and at these forums, that would be between the person and themselves and G-d. We don't play the 'I'm more frum than you' game, although most have gone through this at one time or another it isn't our main concern, as each will die for their own sins.

Originally Posted by Lulav

G-d gave Israel 613 Mitzvot, for a community. No one person can obey them all as they are not for one person. Even Yeshua did not because he could not obey them all. This is something that many Christians don't understand and in ignorance throw this up at us.​

Excuse me? Yeshua lived a perfect sin free life, that is recorded in Scripture. Also what of Enoch, Mordecai, Job or John the Baptizer? The lack of understanding here is that man is unwilling, not unable to obey the Law as it pertains to each person.
How is your personal record of obedience going?
Long before one judges another they need to make sure their house is in order,
then they can remove the log from their own eye to see clearly the speck in anothers.

Before you continue to lecture me on my personal obedience record, and that is a flame mind you, what I said is true. Those who are Messianic and understand the Mosaic law understand this totally. You are just showing your naivete in making this indignant response and accusations against me. Yeshua would tell you the same thing, as he is Torah, but he was also a Man, of a certain tribe. The 613 are for a NATION, not a PERSON. So Yeshua would not be able to 'fulfill' the laws for the Priesthood, the mishkan, for women, etc. I think I counted up once that the most any one person can keep, even with the temple in existence would be in the 200's.

Which brings me to the question, How long have you considered yourself Messianic?

Hmm, bait for yet another "I'm more Messianic than you" attack?

No bait, no attack, falsly accusing , again. Just asking as you come out of nowhere with a new Torah scroll telling us all in this forum, (who many have been here many, many years,) what to do and what to think and how to act. I think we all here have the right to know, and If you don't want to share your testimony, all the more telling.

You have been posting using the preps of 'us' and 'we' when I've never seen you post in here before and my only knowledge of you is from a warning you gave me that really appears to show you not understanding how a Jew should be presented with who Yeshua is.

"I" did not give you a warning, you earned it per the consensus of the Mod Staff. Whose actions are not in question here.

Your name is on the warning, and you were the one that responded to me. If you were Messianic you would have not been part of the consensus. Telling a non Messianic Jew that Yeshua did not do away with Torah is not a flame towards them. Period.

Originally Posted by Lulav

Also no one that is truly a Messianic, (which would mean for one big thing you are a friend to Jews and love the Jewish people) would call themselves a Templar. Most here know the history of the Templars and how Jews they slaughtered on their way to the Holy Land. So it just surprises me that you are now flying the Torah scrolls when a whole part of this debate is about who is and who isn't.​

There seems to be a lack of historical data here...
The Templar Knight fought for the protection of Jerusalem and the Jewish People, the enemy they fought was the Moors, Islam. Islam was murdering Jews and those traveling to see the Holy Land.
Again, we need to be mindful of the difference between being a "Crusader" and being a "Templar", they are quite different. However there exists much negative press surrounding the Templars, that which was cooked up by Kings and Popes because the Templars "bent their knee to no one but God". In that I find honor, sorry if that offends.

You are quite right, my bad, I mixed them up, but they were under the same crown and same Pope. It seems to me I recall reading somewhere that these 'friends of the Jews' tore off the crescent from the dome of the rock and put a cross on top and declared it the Temple of G-d. :o

Originally Posted by Lulav

And these are accusations against us

Who of us can actually claim any sincere level of Torah observance?
this is really a issue of personal hypocricy


Also the link you posted is from a Messianic from an organization that does not believe we are required to keep Torah, stating that Messiah fulfilled it.​

This only stands to prove my point, this was not an accustation on my part. It is fact.

The link provided is a Messianic Congregation is it not? Again, my point is proved! This Congregation does not please some so they will rail against it all the while demanding respect from others. Interesting.
Respect, you get that which you give.

I am stunned by the amount of audacity with which you tell us that it is a fact that none of us can claim a sincere level of Torah observance?

As far as that congregation I have nothing against it, but it's beliefs go against our SOP as it now stands so what is the point in posting it?

As far as the respect, not sure why you are saying this, but I see this agreeing with another problematic poster that will only respect our Torah observance if we respect (FIRST) their lack of it.

Frankly I thought this thread was going well, and I appreciate the efforts of Tish, Mark, Pam and David, but this proves what is going on here and if staff is supporting it in this way, we have no way of holding on to our little piece of real estate here at CF.

Those who wish to persevere after seeing this turn of events,

To you I tip my hat and say

MAZEL TOV!

 

[anisavta]

I don't see you telling Brother EasyG that he's trying to change Torah observance or the MJ SoP and he agrees with this Mod and so does Sister Tishri.

He has me on ignore darlin'.
"Sister Tishri" is trying to settle this with both sides. She's not drawing lines.

 

[anisavta]

What are you trying to fix, unity?
I only ask that respect be both ways, and in doing so you feel I'm angry?
I'm not sure how you reached that conclusion, but you did.
I am not building arguments on disagreement, I have only asked for respect for all who claim Yeshua as Meshiach. How can that be twisted into something needing fixed?
No, I do not post here often, but have in the past. Which means you do not know me well enough to make the claims against me you have.
Sorry you missed my past posts as my comments were amazing!
I have not mentioned "tearing down" anything!
I only ask that we build a forum that holds mutual respect for ALL MJ and CF members, not just those we agree with.
As for my position in the faith, it's not important.
I do not tell of my faith position so I don't seem bias in any direction.

Really???
Hate to tell you this but your bias is showing big time. Time to tuck it in if you want to help here.

 

[Jerushabelle]

He has me on ignore darlin'.

Ok, so?

"Sister Tishri" is trying to settle this with both sides. She's not drawing lines.

I understand that. You have a problem with me calling Tishri "Sister?" That's just my way of pointing out that someone is my Brother or Sister in the Body. It helps to remind me that all in the Body are worthy of my love and respect.

 

[anisavta]

Enough Jerushabelle. If you're goading me to flame you - it's not going to happen. Good night.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Ok, so?

I understand that. You have a problem with me calling Tishri "Sister?" That's just my way of pointing out that someone is my Brother or Sister in the Body. It helps to remind me that all in the Body are worthy of my love and respect.

Enough Jerushabelle. If you're goading me to flame you - it's not going to happen. Good night.

Where is the goading at? Just curious

.

 

[The Templar]

:o Why such a sarcastic remark?

Now a factual statement is "sarcastic"?

Noooo, it is not. One concerns how frum one is or is not, the other I was speaking of is if it should be Jews only that keep Torah (both Messianic and Non-Messianic) or For Gentiles to keep as well. Big difference.

Observance is observance no matter who is observing.

I don't see what that has to do with posting online and at these forums, that would be between the person and themselves and G-d. We don't play the 'I'm more frum than you' game, although most have gone through this at one time or another it isn't our main concern, as each will die for their own sins.

Funny, that is the feeling one gets.
I am not the only one who has observed it.
Is it too much to expect that we all respect one another?
Is it too much to ask that we not attack at each point we differ?

Before you continue to lecture me on my personal obedience record, and that is a flame mind you, what I said is true. Those who are Messianic and understand the Mosaic law understand this totally. You are just showing your naivete in making this indignant response and accusations against me. Yeshua would tell you the same thing, as he is Torah, but he was also a Man, of a certain tribe. The 613 are for a NATION, not a PERSON. So Yeshua would not be able to 'fulfill' the laws for the Priesthood, the mishkan, for women, etc. I think I counted up once that the most any one person can keep, even with the temple in existence would be in the 200's.

No, it is not a flame. The comment is a call to look to our own homes before we judge others, and then simply don't judge. We all are in no position to do so.

No bait, no attack, falsly accusing , again. Just asking as you come out of nowhere with a new Torah scroll telling us all in this forum, (who many have been here many, many years,) what to do and what to think and how to act. I think we all here have the right to know, and If you don't want to share your testimony, all the more telling.

I have not come here to tell anyone how to live, believe, eat, drive, dance, paint or anything else and I am tired of the accustation. I ask that we all be more kind and respectful and that's it!
My point about the level of intolerance here in the MJ forum is being proved with every response to my posts. Comments made clearly confess a lack of any real knowledge about me yet the attack begins. Why? Is there that much hate in respecting others?
That is all I seek, do for others as you would have them do for you.

Your name is on the warning, and you were the one that responded to me. If you were Messianic you would have not been part of the consensus. Telling a non Messianic Jew that Yeshua did not do away with Torah is not a flame towards them. Period.

All of this was explained to you in PM, why do you want to break the CF rules by discussing a Mod action on the open forum? Are you sure of that vote? Before you accuse, get the facts.

You are quite right, my bad, I mixed them up, but they were under the same crown and same Pope. It seems to me I recall reading somewhere that these 'friends of the Jews' tore off the crescent from the dome of the rock and put a cross on top and declared it the Temple of G-d. :o

No, the Templars did not follow Crown or Pope.

I am stunned by the amount of audacity with which you tell us that it is a fact that none of us can claim a sincere level of Torah observance?

Why the anger about the truth? Are we not told that if we are guilty of breaking one of God's commands then we are guilty of breaking them all? This should not offend or indicate a lack of Torah observance, I only point out this fact to show that we should not judge others.

As far as that congregation I have nothing against it, but it's beliefs go against our SOP as it now stands so what is the point in posting it?

Are you sure of that? Posting it shows how much more we have in common than we think.

As far as the respect, not sure why you are saying this, but I see this agreeing with another problematic poster that will only respect our Torah observance if we respect (FIRST) their lack of it.

Well, that may be seeing wrongly... No, respect is mutual. I'll tell anyone that.

Frankly I thought this thread was going well, and I appreciate the efforts of Tish, Mark, Pam and David, but this proves what is going on here and if staff is supporting it in this way, we have no way of holding on to our little piece of real estate here at CF.

Those who wish to persevere after seeing this turn of events,

To you I tip my hat and say

MAZEL TOV!

I fail to understand the unwillingness to simply get along with others with which we share so much. We are all Messianic, we all believe the same Torah is God's Word of guidance to man. Can we not chose to look to what we have in common? This forum is read by people all around the world, what example of our faith are we projecting? To many of those people, we are the only example of Messianism they will ever see. We need to make the first impression good and inviting, else we risk pushing some lost soul right into the hands of the evil one.
As for me, I have only tried to put forth constructive ideas and a request for the respect of others for which I have recieved the judgment of many! Oh well, sorry y'all feel that way!

 

[Tishri1]

So wild to consider where things are at now in light of what occurred when the forum got to the point it was years ago--as seen in the thread Change coming to the MJ forum when the SOP was chosen by others on both Staff and MJish members of the forum....and as you noted in #14 when stating how the SOF was not meant to be the END-All of Messianic belief:

And on others where the SOP was seen in development:


[*] Posting Etiquette
[*]Just happened upon this thought you should be aware of new SOF
[*]Some Forums are becoming Christian Only ....some of you may wish to change your icons

If you think that's wild you should have been here in 777 when all was the forums were run in wikis and members made all the rules and controlled all staff! Crazy days!

Sent from my iPad using CF God Bless You

 

[The Templar]

Really???
Hate to tell you this but your bias is showing big time. Time to tuck it in if you want to help here.

And in my statement where is there bias?
Why is it so unreasonable to ask for mutual respect?
Why is it so hard to stop arguing?
My questions remain unanswered yet there are insults, why?
I seek to provide for all the differing views of MJ, why is that so wrong?
I seek that all members be afforded the respect they deserve, why is that so wrong?
How is that showing bias "big time"?
I sure hope it's not that one group doesn't want another group to be afforded the same rights and privileges they themselves demand.
But that would be wrong now wouldn't it?

 

[Tishri1]

:o Why such a sarcastic remark?

Noooo, it is not. One concerns how frum one is or is not, the other I was speaking of is if it should be Jews only that keep Torah (both Messianic and Non-Messianic) or For Gentiles to keep as well. Big difference.

I don't see what that has to do with posting online and at these forums, that would be between the person and themselves and G-d. We don't play the 'I'm more frum than you' game, although most have gone through this at one time or another it isn't our main concern, as each will die for their own sins.

Before you continue to lecture me on my personal obedience record, and that is a flame mind you, what I said is true. Those who are Messianic and understand the Mosaic law understand this totally. You are just showing your naivete in making this indignant response and accusations against me. Yeshua would tell you the same thing, as he is Torah, but he was also a Man, of a certain tribe. The 613 are for a NATION, not a PERSON. So Yeshua would not be able to 'fulfill' the laws for the Priesthood, the mishkan, for women, etc. I think I counted up once that the most any one person can keep, even with the temple in existence would be in the 200's.

No bait, no attack, falsly accusing , again. Just asking as you come out of nowhere with a new Torah scroll telling us all in this forum, (who many have been here many, many years,) what to do and what to think and how to act. I think we all here have the right to know, and If you don't want to share your testimony, all the more telling.

Your name is on the warning, and you were the one that responded to me. If you were Messianic you would have not been part of the consensus. Telling a non Messianic Jew that Yeshua did not do away with Torah is not a flame towards them. Period.

You are quite right, my bad, I mixed them up, but they were under the same crown and same Pope. It seems to me I recall reading somewhere that these 'friends of the Jews' tore off the crescent from the dome of the rock and put a cross on top and declared it the Temple of G-d. :o

I am stunned by the amount of audacity with which you tell us that it is a fact that none of us can claim a sincere level of Torah observance?

As far as that congregation I have nothing against it, but it's beliefs go against our SOP as it now stands so what is the point in posting it?

As far as the respect, not sure why you are saying this, but I see this agreeing with another problematic poster that will only respect our Torah observance if we respect (FIRST) their lack of it.

Frankly I thought this thread was going well, and I appreciate the efforts of Tish, Mark, Pam and David, but this proves what is going on here and if staff is supporting it in this way, we have no way of holding on to our little piece of real estate here at CF.

Those who wish to persevere after seeing this turn of events,

To you I tip my hat and say

MAZEL TOV!

Don't leave we're just starting to work out some understanding in here

Sent from my iPad using CF God Bless You

 

[Jerushabelle]

Before you continue to lecture me on my personal obedience record, and that is a flame mind you, what I said is true. Those who are Messianic and understand the Mosaic law understand this totally. You are just showing your naivete in making this indignant response and accusations against me. Yeshua would tell you the same thing, as he is Torah, but he was also a Man, of a certain tribe. The 613 are for a NATION, not a PERSON. So Yeshua would not be able to 'fulfill' the laws for the Priesthood, the mishkan, for women, etc. I think I counted up once that the most any one person can keep, even with the temple in existence would be in the 200's.

Again with the posturing. I don't see naivete. I think the point is that if you break one, whichever one that is applicable, you've broken all of them. The 613 may be for a nation but we're not judged as a nation, we're judged individually.

No bait, no attack, falsly accusing , again. Just asking as you come out of nowhere with a new Torah scroll telling us all in this forum, (who many have been here many, many years,) what to do and what to think and how to act. I think we all here have the right to know, and If you don't want to share your testimony, all the more telling.

How about goading? This is a forum Sister. Excuse me, but how do I know you're really Messianic? How do I know that Sister Tishri is Messianic or anyone here who claims to be Messianic is truly Messianic? I don't. Most folks don't even use their real names and that's okay...well, I sort of do but I had to revise mine a little because someone else already was using my real name but that's neither here nor there. It's just wrong to demand personal information or testimonies from people. Folks have a right to their privacy and still be able to post without somebody casting a shadow on them.

I am stunned by the amount of audacity with which you tell us that it is a fact that none of us can claim a sincere level of Torah observance?

Again, I'm thinking this has to do with our inability to do what only Yeshua could do.

As far as that congregation I have nothing against it, but it's beliefs go against our SOP as it now stands so what is the point in posting it?

What? How? You know, I posted links to several different congregation's SoF in the past and that's the same thing that was said then. So, only the congregations that are deemed Messianic by consensus here are Messianic? Don't you think that's destructive to MJ?

As far as the respect, not sure why you are saying this, but I see this agreeing with another problematic poster that will only respect our Torah observance if we respect (FIRST) their lack of it.

Another statement aimed at me. Just use my name for pity's sake, I don't care. Listen, I never asked that you or anyone else FIRST respect the fact that I am not as Torah observant as others and I certainly did not disrespect anyone's Torah observance here. I asked for equal respect, period, and I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who has and come up bupkis.

Frankly I thought this thread was going well, and I appreciate the efforts of Tish, Mark, Pam and David, but this proves what is going on here and if staff is supporting it in this way, we have no way of holding on to our little piece of real estate here at CF.

The thing that keeps escaping is that this little piece of real estate is the sole property of CF and whether we are here to enjoy it or not, by virtue of obedience or disobedience of the rules, it will still be here.

 

[Jerushabelle]

Enough Jerushabelle. If you're goading me to flame you - it's not going to happen. Good night.

Hey, who put the name in quotes? Thanks for not flaming me but I wasn't goading you. Good night. (wish I could sleep... )

 

[Avodat]

Read the overnight mammoth postings.

I'm lost for words, so I'll say nothing (which should speak volumes!).

 

[GuardianShua]

Everyone here knows I'm the odd ball, I have said so myself. I study with and attend different denomination. Why are all these lines being drawn in the sand? I like a diverse group, I get better input. Get along people.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

As far as that congregation I have nothing against it, but it's beliefs go against our SOP as it now stands so what is the point in posting it?

If you are referring to that video I posted, I can't see how they would be against the SoP. He says 'when He comes back everyone is going to keep them'.

"Anti Torah campaigns-While MJs believe they are saved by grace and faith in Yeshua Messiah, they honor and respect the Torah given by Moses. No campaigning against the Torah"

If someone posts in a way 'you got to keep the Torah and if you don't...' does anyone have a right to challenge that or it's also possible believers are being misunderstood on both sides. I'm involved in another forum and there are Torah positive believers there that do this 'if you don't keep the Law you'll be least in the Kingdom of Heaven'.

 

[MessianicMommy]

What I don't understand is why some, not all on this forum; cannot take a stance that there are others all along the road of observance - share your view and move on if you disagree. There are AMICABLE ways to talk about what I believe and what You believe, and what s/he believes and they do... without it ever becoming anything other than thinking and working positively with those facts.

Sure the MJAA does xzy, and the UCMJ does abc and BSS in Germany does def and IAMCS does ghi and so and so does zbeh... when it comes to the forum, we COULD discuss that without everyone getting their underoos in a wad. It's where we all as adults have to move past our hurts, our baggage and just decide to either not discuss, or bow out before things get too heated.

I believe at this point it might be beneficial for us to just take any debate off the table and work on fellowship, and then perhaps we can bring it back.

Some of this comes down to personality types, but most of this has to do with the dynamic that has changed with some of our newer posters and older posters. I know it doesn't look like I've been here a long time, but I was here under my old username for quite a while and know most everyone here, even if some do not remember me.
The forum WAS doing much better when I rejoined than I had seen it in a long, long time. However, there's been some fur flying as of late that has seen several valuable posters leave.

I've wondered if perhaps working through some books together that are bible study and/or church and messianic history together might mend some of this brokenness, and also if perhaps some rules in place that help change our paradigm and way of thinking of/about others might assist us all.

But, there is so much "you" and "I" accusatory statements that I wonder if anyone could possibly step outside of their comfort zones and walk a few miles in each others shoes and still come out amicably agreeing to disagree or if it would just make it all worse...

 

[Avodat]

What I don't understand is why some, not all on this forum; cannot take a stance that there are others all along the road of observance - share your view and move on if you disagree. There are AMICABLE ways to talk about what I believe and what You believe, and what s/he believes and they do... without it ever becoming anything other than thinking and working positively with those facts.

Sure the MJAA does xzy, and the UCMJ does abc and BSS in Germany does def and IAMCS does ghi and so and so does zbeh... when it comes to the forum, we COULD discuss that without everyone getting their underoos in a wad. It's where we all as adults have to move past our hurts, our baggage and just decide to either not discuss, or bow out before things get too heated.

I believe at this point it might be beneficial for us to just take any debate off the table and work on fellowship, and then perhaps we can bring it back.

Some of this comes down to personality types, but most of this has to do with the dynamic that has changed with some of our newer posters and older posters. I know it doesn't look like I've been here a long time, but I was here under my old username for quite a while and know most everyone here, even if some do not remember me.
The forum WAS doing much better when I rejoined than I had seen it in a long, long time. However, there's been some fur flying as of late that has seen several valuable posters leave.

I've wondered if perhaps working through some books together that are bible study and/or church and messianic history together might mend some of this brokenness, and also if perhaps some rules in place that help change our paradigm and way of thinking of/about others might assist us all.

But, there is so much "you" and "I" accusatory statements that I wonder if anyone could possibly step outside of their comfort zones and walk a few miles in each others shoes and still come out amicably agreeing to disagree or if it would just make it all worse...

As my friend says: You should always try and walk a few miles in someone elses' shoes...by that time you are a miles from them and they don't have any shoes, so it's their problem!



(Sorry to make light of that phrase - couldn't resist. But you are right!)

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

Sure the MJAA does xzy, and the UCMJ does abc and BSS in Germany does def and IAMCS does ghi and so and so does zbeh... when it comes to the forum, we COULD discuss that without everyone getting their underoos in a wad. It's where we all as adults have to move past our hurts, our baggage and just decide to either not discuss, or bow out before things get too heated.

I was in a short period of my walk with the Lord that I got caught up in 'you must keep the Law and if you don't...' or posting in ways that would suggest if you don't keep the Law you are going to be least.

Then I started to think about Messianic Judaism. I was born and raised Jewish in between reform and conservative which has always been an expression of traditions. It wasn't until recently because of this discussion that took me back. My family has always kept what they could in a traditional sense. We never built a Sukkot at home but we helped the synagogue build one as an example and we went in it. Much like the video I posted in a traditional sense. Traditionally speaking it wasn't in a binding sense it was what we do. Like in the Fiddler on the Roof, 'how did this tradition get started?'... 'I don't know'. But then he says it's a tradition, everyone knows who He is and what God expects.

I'm positive that most Messianic Jews view the holidays in this sense. But what is found in these traditions is fulfillment of 'the One who Moses in the Law and the prophets did write'.

What I'm saying I don't want anyone to take it the wrong way, I'm sharing my experience and I think I speak for the majority of Jewish believers not to make any distinctions. I asked a great friend of mine who isn't Jewish who is also a fellow congregant about his wanting to be involved in the movement and how he views and feels about the high holidays and such. And does he ever feel these 'traditions' are binding? I wear a kippah in synagogue he doesn't as an example. He said he doesn't feel pressured to wear one or not wear one. He doesn't have a Seder at his home but will go to the community Seder and a family Seder on the 1st night at one of his Jewish friends he grew up with. I wish he would post here, I'll ask him.

Am I making sense?

 

[ContraMundum]

So why not take away our distinction all together and just call us "another fringe Christian group" and be done with it. Is it so difficult to allow someone a distinction instead of a mishmash?

I do in fact consider MJism as another group in Christianity.

I just don't understand the desire of some to assimilate a Jewish believer into the Christian world instead of letting them keep their distinctions.
Contra you have embraced Christianity and for you it might work. But to deny another Jew and even a Gentile who identifies with the Jew the right to separate themselves from what they feel is offensive in Christianity is beyond me.

I no longer believe the myth that Churches are trying to assimilate Jews into denying our heritage, or that my full participation in the Messianic (aka Christian) community is somehow a slur on or rejection of my own (actual, birthright) Jewish heritage. Rather, I see a false dilemma being presented to honest people looking for answers by people who find life in the Body of Christ too challenging and would rather walk their own individual course.

The fact is, the "right to separate" is a scriptural law that requires a lot of qualification, and as yet, I have not seen any demonstration of the requirements for severing fellowship with the mainstream church being fulfilled.

There is a difference between scriptural severance of fellowship and schism.

 

[ContraMundum]

For some the term Christian might be perceived as pejorative, but is intended, at least lin my case, as showing a distinction between two belief systems. For most Christian believe that the Torah has been done away with. It is simply a particularly Christian doctrine that I no longer accept. I think that is true for the majority of members in this 'faith group' here. No offence intended.

This illustrates basically our difference of understanding. I think that you can't clean a window with a hammer. To say that "most Christians believe that the Torah has been done away with" without understanding that there are a number of qualifying factors on the subject is to in fact make a case against "most Christians" that simply is not true. Anyone with a NT will discover that there are portions of the Torah that are no longer necessary. "Most Christians" are prepared to face that fact and accept it.

However, to make a statement that insinuates that "Most Christians" have no reverence and no regard to any part of the Torah is a slanderous lie, as almost every major Christian denomination not only teaches the moral law but the devout portion of its membership adheres to it, something some MJs, who gab on about the law incessantly, could learn from. The fact of the matter is that every mainstream catechism in history begins with the commandments. This is not evidence of "doing away" with the Torah.

Perhaps your cause would be better served by the elimination of such broad reaching and misleading statements such as "most Christians believe that the Torah has been done away with"