I want to know more about Messianic Judaism

[Chaplain David]

Lev. 23 the Lord said that these are "My Feasts," they do not belong to any people group - they belong to Hashem. And whoever belongs to Hashem has a right and an obligation to keep His feast days & His memorials. No ifs, ands, or buts about it!

Are you also saying that Jew or MJ, you can and are allowed to celbrate the full Jewish Shabbat? My goodness this faith is rich. Shalom.
Hello, please help me. Why do you have both the Jewish and the MJ faith Icons by your avatar? Are you Jewish in some way, I know that I am by heritage and some faith but that has been a while.

 

[Chaplain David]

Exodus 20:8-11
“Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you. For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.

The sojourner was commanded to also keep the Sabbath and to keep it Holy... no different than the native born... but this requires actually knowing what the Torah says to understand these things... It is obvious some here do not know the Torah very well.

Hello, that is stated as written and very Holy.

Tell me though, what do you or others) do with the other laws, referred to protestants by protestants as Mosaic law, some 600 or so I believe that encompass some brutality? I can think of, and I think it's out of Lev., stoning those to death who have committed adultery. Are they not also part of the Torah?

Shalom

 

[etZion]

Hello, that is stated as written and very Holy.

Tell me though, what do you or others) do with the other laws, referred to protestants by protestants as Mosaic law, some 600 or so I believe that encompass some brutality? I can think of, and I think it's out of Lev., stoning those to death who have committed adultery. Are they not also part of the Torah?

Shalom

Hey bro, great questions, many of the Laws can only operate within the Land, and with a proper government setup, one being within the order the Torah prescribes... In other words, we cannot carry out judgments due to there not being an established government, with judges according to Torah, etc. If in fact we did try to carry out these judgments, we would be breaking the Torah. So while we cannot punish an adulterer according to Torah, we can individually seek to obey the command to not commit adultery. We can also individually keep many of the commands that do not require the presence of the Land. Another example, is sacrifices, which require a Temple and the Priesthood, something which the scripture indicates will be in full force in the Millennial Kingdom, something which if we did now, we would be sacrificing to demons, as we cannot keep it according to Torah.

 

[Henaynei]

Thank you. Is it a one-up manship kind of thing. I am first in line because I am Jewish. You are next because you are gentile?

no, not at all. G-d specifically said He gave the Shabbat as. a gift, seal and surety of His Covenant with and to Israel. Shabbat was never given to or required of the Gentiles. Some Gentiles, who have been strongly moved toward growing in keeping Torah, may strive to learn to keep Shabbat. But a big problem is that they often try to go Sola Scripta to do it. This leads each to do what "seems right in their own eyes" and thus desecrating Shabbat and dishonoring the very Judaism they are so committed to emulate.

Please always assume that my questions are not fraught with any attitude or guilt but are being made to learn. God bless you and Shalom for all of us,

no problem, so far you have been one of the Very Few questioners to ever visit this forum who did not preach, try to teach, try to show us the "error of our ways," convict us of recrucifying Messiah or just plain argue with us. Your respectful and humbly thoughtful queries bring honor to G-d and peace to our mutual fellowship!

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

 

[Henaynei]

Hey bro, great questions, many of the Laws can only operate within the Land, and with a proper government setup, one being within the order the Torah prescribes... In other words, we cannot carry out judgments due to there not being an established government, with judges according to Torah, etc. If in fact we did try to carry out these judgments, we would be breaking the Torah. So while we cannot punish an adulterer according to Torah, we can individually seek to obey the command to not commit adultery. We can also individually keep many of the commands that do not require the presence of the Land. Another example, is sacrifices, which require a Temple and the Priesthood, something which the scripture indicates will be in full force in the Millennial Kingdom, something which if we did now, we would be sacrificing to demons, as we cannot keep it according to Torah.

Well sketched out

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

 

[Chaplain David]

no, not at all. G-d specifically said He gave the Shabbat as. a gift, seal and surety of His Covenant with and to Israel. Shabbat was never given to or required of the Gentiles. Some Gentiles, who have been strongly moved toward growing in keeping Torah, may strive to learn to keep Shabbat. But a big problem is that they often try to go Sola Scripta to do it. This leads each to do what "seems right in their own eyes" and thus desecrating Shabbat and dishonoring the very Judaism they are so committed to emulate.

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

Would you say that the above bolded part of your quote is one point of controversy between the various flavors of MJ?

SHALOM

 

[mishkan]

Do not assume it is a prejudice. It is the understanding of the Torah which brings Judaism to the conclusion that Gentiles should not keep the Sabbath like the Jewish people do.

I disagree. I believe the exclusivity is borne out of a blend of arrogance and isolationism based on mistreatment by Gentiles in times past.

 

[Henaynei]

I disagree. I believe the exclusivity is borne out of a blend of arrogance and isolationism based on mistreatment by Gentiles in times past.

Just for balance, I, as a Gentile in this movement for many years, completely disagree

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

 

[Henaynei]

Would you say that the above bolded part of your quote is one point of controversy between the various flavors of MJ?

SHALOM

Yes, it certainly is one.

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

 

[Chaplain David]

Within MJ, how do you determine who the Jews are? Naturally after I know that I will know who the gentiles are

 

[Henaynei]

Within MJ, how do you determine who the Jews are? Naturally after I know that I will know who the gentiles are

Within MJ or without, Jews are those born of a Jewish mother and circumcised, or if born if a Jewish father was both circumcised and raised Jewish.

In a gathering it is generally impolite to ask someone of they are Jewish. It is usually so that most Gentiles know many more Jews than they think they do because Jews generally don't go around advertising it nor does the clothing of most Jews visibly separate them.
However, political correctness aside, sometimes people will ask

Unfortunately, there are some Gentiles in MJ that call themselves Jews. They feel they have scripture or their own interpretation of scripture to back them up. This is most upsetting to most non-Jewish MJs and more so to both MJ and non-MJ Jews.

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

 

[mishkan]

Just for balance, I, as a Gentile in this movement for many years, completely disagree

Fair enough. To what do you attribute the exclusivity claims, then? What is a Gentile church, apart from the People with whom God established the Covenants of Promise? Why is their such negativity when one talks about truly implementing the concepts of "adoption" and "ingrafting"? Where is the sense of "mishpacha" when one is held at arms' length, and denied full acceptance in the community?

Is that not precisely what Kefa was doing when he was chastised by Paul???

 

[Henaynei]

Just for balance, I, as a Gentile in this movement for many years, completely disagree

Fair enough. To what do you attribute the exclusivity claims, then?

I'm unclear what or whose claims it is to which you are referring. Please clarify.

What is a Gentile church, apart from the People with whom God established the Covenants of Promise?

the Gentile Church is part of the Body of Messiah. As such they:
Are equal in standing before the Throne and as pertains to Salvation as are the Jews. In THIS WAY there is "neither Jew nor Greek."
The Gentile Church has One Covenant of Promise, not Covenants.

Why is there such negativity when one talks about truly implementing the concepts of "adoption" and "ingrafting"?

because erroneously that one is insisting rights of adoption and ingrafting where they have no right to be. Gentiles do not become Jews upon salvation any more than women become men or employees become employers.

Where is the sense of "mishpacha" when one is held at arms' length, and denied full acceptance in the community?

if you tried to bust down my front door demanding your were my mother's long lost son I'd keep you at arms length as well
The community to which some demand acceptance is Not the community of Believers but the community of Judaism, because they are Believers. Often dressed up or softened by denying this, nonetheless those "some" insist on the same level of participation in Jewish activities and rituals as any native Jew.

Is that not precisely what Kefa was doing when he was chastised by Paul???

no, it was not. Kefa was modifying his practice and fellowship for fear of the Judaizers which came from Yerushalyim but were Not sent by the Counsel in Yerushalyim. Thus Sha'ul chastised him for knuckling under to perceived judgementalism by the Judaizers.

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

 

[Jerushabelle]

Where is the sense of "mishpacha" when one is held at arms' length, and denied full acceptance in the community?

I've been asking that question for a couple months now. Sister Qnts2 has always provided me with it and she has my gratitude.

 

[Chaplain David]

I'm unclear what or whose claims it is to which you are referring. Please clarify.


the Gentile Church is part of the Body of Messiah. As such they:
Are equal in standing before the Throne and as pertains to Salvation as are the Jews. In THIS WAY there is "neither Jew nor Greek."
The Gentile Church has One Covenant of Promise, not Covenants.

because erroneously that one is insisting rights of adoption and ingrafting where they have no right to be. Gentiles do not become Jews upon salvation any more than women become men or employees become employers.

if you tried to bust down my front door demanding your were my mother's long lost son I'd keep you at arms length as well
The community to which some demand acceptance is Not the community of Believers but the community of Judaism. Often dressed up or softened by denying this, nonetheless those "some" insist on the same level of participation in Jewish activities and rituals as any native Jew.

no, it was not. Kefa was modifying his practice and fellowship for fear of the Judaizers which came from Yerushalyim but were Not sent by the Counsel in Yerushalyim. Thus Sha'ul chastised him for knuckling under to perceived judgementalism by the Judaizers.

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

Thanks for the definitions of Jew and Gentile folks. That is true, our Apostle said (wrote) those very words. Yet are they generally accepted in the MJ community or does the division (which logic I do understand of Jew and Gentile division) sort of an offshoot or a newish kind of MJ philosopy or one of sometime shall we say "heated" discussion?

 

[Henaynei]

That is true, our Apostle said (wrote) those very words. Yet are they generally accepted in the MJ community or does the division (which logic I do understand of Jew and Gentile division) sort of an offshoot or a newish kind of MJ philosopy or one of sometime shall we say "heated" discussion?

I'm sorry I'm a little as to exactly to which statement or scripture you are referring

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

 

[Yahudim]

Greeting Talmidim and all here,

Although I am asking you I invite all replies. Since there are very few Jewish members here and this is an MJ forum let me ask this. How do you differentiate between the Jews and the Gentiles under the MJ umbrella. If someone is Jewish and practices that faith then it seems simple. But I don't understand how MJ's do it with other MJ's. Please enlighten me.

Thank you and Shalom.

David

Shalom David,

I am of questionable genetic stock, as far as those things go. I certainly don't qualify as a Jew under the Rabbinic tradition. Concerning your question, "How do you differentiate between the Jews and the Gentiles under the MJ umbrella.", my answer is: I don't, at least as far as our legal standing as a part of Israel before the Messianic King, Y'shua. That however is a problem with the seperationists.

 

[anisavta]

So the question comes up - how do you tell a Gentile who identifies with Israel as spoken of in Romans 11 that they are not allowed to participate in Shabbat, can and should eat unclean meat, should find a nice church, celebrate Christmas and Easter - and leave the "Jewish things" to us Jews. Isn't that building back up the "wall of hostility" we are trying to break down. Isn't it like saying, "You can have our Messiah, but you can't be a part of our worship and customs?

 

[Chaplain David]

I'm sorry I'm a little as to exactly to which statement or scripture you are referring

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

I believe I am referring to Gal 3:28

There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

I am not arguing doctrine. That is not my place when not debating and that is not why I am here. God bless and Shalom.

 

[Yahudim]

So the question comes up - how do you tell a Gentile who identifies with Israel as spoken of in Romans 11 that they are not allowed to participate in Shabbat, can and should eat unclean meat, should find a nice church, celebrate Christmas and Easter - and leave the "Jewish things" to us Jews. Isn't that building back up the "wall of hostility" we are trying to break down. Isn't it like saying, "You can have our Messiah, but you can't be a part of our worship and customs?

Shalom Sis,

Well said.

• We are adopted, just not into their family.
• We are grafted in, just not to anything in this world.
• We have the adoption of sons, brothers and co-heirs with the Jewish Messiah, but He's not in right now, why don't you call back later?
• We are subjects of the Israeli King, just not a subject of Israel.
• We are beneficiaries of the wall of separation being torn down, but now there is a ladder of separation. We benefit from this 'adoption' when we get to heaven or when heaven comes to us.

See how this works?