I want to know more about Messianic Judaism

[mishkan]

Do not assume it is a prejudice. It is the understanding of the Torah which brings Judaism to the conclusion that Gentiles should not keep the Sabbath like the Jewish people do.

Until said Gentile chooses to identify with the people and the God of Israel. At that point, we see, "There shall be one law for the stranger and for him who is native-born."

What I am proposing is that there is no "church" outside of the nation of Israel. I realize this is a radical departure that doesn't align with your dispy charts, so it is difficult to grasp. But I am describing an ecclesiology that is based on Israel at the core, with Gentiles becoming adherents to the nation. Ephesians 2 uses the metaphor of the "commonwealth"--a political allegiance, similar to that of an Empire, like that of the old British Commonwealth.

When King Messiah sits on his throne in Jerusalem, all the nations of the earth will swear allegiance to the King of Israel. All I maintain is that Gentiles who claim to follow the Jewish King today should be doing the same--one Lord, one faith, one mikveh, one God, one king, and... one law for all.

What has historically been called "the church" is merely a social club based in "not-Israel". I believe that to be in error. The fact that every Christian denomination eventually turns into a political body following the trends of common culture shows us that there is a power vacuum waiting to be filled by King Messiah. There is no church apart from Israel.

 

[Avodat]

Until said Gentile chooses to identify with the people and the God of Israel. At that point, we see, "There shall be one law for the stranger and for him who is native-born."

What I am proposing is that there is no "church" outside of the nation of Israel. I realize this is a radical departure that doesn't align with your dispy charts, so it is difficult to grasp. But I am describing an ecclesiology that is based on Israel at the core, with Gentiles becoming adherents to the nation. Ephesians 2 uses the metaphor of the "commonwealth"--a political allegiance, similar to that of an Empire, like that of the old British Commonwealth.

When King Messiah sits on his throne in Jerusalem, all the nations of the earth will swear allegiance to the King of Israel. All I maintain is that Gentiles who claim to follow the Jewish King today should be doing the same--one Lord, one faith, one mikveh, one God, one king, and... one law for all.

What has historically been called "the church" is merely a social club based in "not-Israel". I believe that to be in error. The fact that every Christian denomination eventually turns into a political body following the trends of common culture shows us that there is a power vacuum waiting to be filled by King Messiah. There is no church apart from Israel.

We'll stop playing at politics when the politicians stop playing at being G_d!

 

[jcpro]

If Gentiles want to keep the shabbos in the Jewish manner, that obviously means submitting to the Rabbinic authority. Any takers? LOL!

 

[Steve Petersen]

If Gentiles want to keep the shabbos in the Jewish manner, that obviously means submitting to the Rabbinic authority. Any takers? LOL!

How about we observe it like Jesus did? Isn't that what disciples do?

 

[etZion]

If Gentiles want to keep the shabbos in the Jewish manner, that obviously means submitting to the Rabbinic authority. Any takers? LOL!

Not even all of Judaism does that, visit your nearby reform and conservative synagogue and get back to me.

 

[mishkan]

We'll stop playing at politics when the politicians stop playing at being G_d!

Indeed. Unfortunately, that little transition will never happen. It runs against human nature.

I rather suspect it won't be more than another 10 years, or so, before statements like yours will result in a visit from "the authorities".

 

[Yahudim]

Indeed. Unfortunately, that little transition will never happen. It runs against human nature.

I rather suspect it won't be more than another 10 years, or so, before statements like yours will result in a visit from "the authorities".

Could I see your papers, please?

 

[Yahudim]

If Gentiles want to keep the shabbos in the Jewish manner, that obviously means submitting to the Rabbinic authority. Any takers? LOL!

If said submission didn't include a required renunciation of Y'shua, there might be more takers than you could easily count.

 

[Steve Petersen]

If said submission didn't include a required renunciation of Y'shua, there might be more takers than you could easily count.

I agree.

 

[etZion]

Just to play devils advocate, heh heh....

Bring it on!!!

This clearly implies that if a stranger was residing with Jews in their cities, in regards to work and rest they were to observe shabbos. I don't see
where it applies elsewhere.. ie, living in areas away from Jews.
Nor that Gentiles should be taking on the observances of Jews other than rest and not working.
And.....would it apply to those who hold beliefs different than those of Jews? Or would only those who aligned their beliefs with Jews be allowed to live amongst them, and to observe shabbos?

Look at the time period, gentiles joined Israel as a mixed multitude, without even going through conversion per say, and were given the Torah with the Jews, they simply left Egypt with Israel, could that even happen today? Look at the orthodox community, would they even consider, lol, no way, not even if the gentiles offered large sums of money... most likely the only people who would consider are the reform and possibly the conservative, I have friends in both communities and they would accept me in a heart beat, in fact they say I am 'Jewish' without being 'officially Jewish', cracks me up, because they know I am a gentile, and I even remind them, lets just say, I kinda like being a gentile, whats wrong with being a sojourner? Regardless, the questions depend on the community, which part of the Jewish community are you referring to? the Messianics, Reform, Conservative, or Orthodox, or the others?

Thus the answer to majority of your questions is a matter of the community you join, being that not all the Jewish communities agree, and most Orthodox and especially Ultra Orthodox are not very accepting of even the greater Jewish community. So where do we go from here Devil's advocate?

 

[mishkan]

If Gentiles want to keep the shabbos in the Jewish manner, that obviously means submitting to the Rabbinic authority. Any takers? LOL!

I'm sure I don't speak for all Messianics, but I have no problem with learning rabbinics, and incorporating those aspects of rabbinic instruction that are edifying. I love the breaking (not cutting) of a loaf of challah, and the lighting of the candles, for instance.

I've already stated that I view the UMJC and MJAA as nothing more than human institutions that can make suggestions with which I may, or may not, agree. Likewise, I appreciate the wisdom presented by the sages. I apply some of it, both consciously and unconsciously. Bit I can choose to disagree where I am not convinced that the conclusion is appropriate.

I do not view the experience of Hashem as something I can turn over to some "leader". I am personally responsible to be aware of the issues, and make deliberate decisions regarding how to obey the Father. If I make a wrong decision, I fully expect to someday stand before the Master of the Ages, and declare, "I only did my best, and I now live by your grace and mercy."

 

[jcpro]

Not even all of Judaism does that, visit your nearby reform and conservative synagogue and get back to me.

Every denomination has its own rules. Right or wrong. free will all the way

 

[jcpro]

I'm sure I don't speak for all Messianics, but I have no problem with learning rabbinics, and incorporating those aspects of rabbinic instruction that are edifying. I love the breaking (not cutting) of a loaf of challah, and the lighting of the candles, for instance.

I've already stated that I view the UMJC and MJAA as nothing more than human institutions that can make suggestions with which I may, or may not, agree. Likewise, I appreciate the wisdom presented by the sages. I apply some of it, both consciously and unconsciously. Bit I can choose to disagree where I am not convinced that the conclusion is appropriate.

I do not view the experience of Hashem as something I can turn over to some "leader". I am personally responsible to be aware of the issues, and make deliberate decisions regarding how to obey the Father. If I make a wrong decision, I fully expect to someday stand before the Master of the Ages, and declare, "I only did my best, and I now live by your grace and mercy."

That's my view, too. Do honestly as best as I can.

 

[jcpro]

If said submission didn't include a required renunciation of Y'shua, there might be more takers than you could easily count.

I'm not too sure that would even be an issue with, say, Reform folks. The Nicene thing and the divinity are the real deal breakers.

 

[Yahudim]

I'm not too sure that would even be an issue with, say, Reform folks. The Nicene thing and the divinity are the real deal breakers.

Understood, but not all believers in Y'shua consider Him really apart from YHVH. Though the popular view is three separate Beings, some of us take a slightly different view, considering Y'shua's statement about the Shema. Do you think it impossible that YHVH could imbue flesh with His Spirit? Me, I hate to put Him in a box.

 

[jcpro]

Understood, but not all believers in Y'shua consider Him really apart from YHVH. Though the popular view is three separate Beings, some of us take a slightly different view, considering Y'shua's statement about the Shema. Do you think it impossible that YHVH could imbue flesh with His Spirit? Me, I hate to put Him in a box.

"And the spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord frightened him" so, yeah it is possible. I can't and don't really want to speculate how that would apply to the NT situation.

 

[Yahudim]

"And the spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord frightened him" so, yeah it is possible. I can't and don't really want to speculate how that would apply to the NT situation.

OK

 

[Chaplain David]

Brothers and Sisters, Good Morning. I have been off doing other work on the forum and dealing with things that given primary input, I would not have been off doing. But I am back and looking forward to reading your posts and of course, asking more questions.

Shalom

Sacerdote (David)

 

[Chaplain David]

Hi David,
That is a sobering thought.


The question I was originally replying to was about the observation of Sabbath. Chava K had said, 'It's no issue, except Gentiles should not keep shabbat as Jews do. Not a problem as most Gentiles don't.'

In response, Sacredote asked, 'I'm trying to understand ChavaK's comments about (hope I'm quoting them right) that MJ's shouldn't keep Shabbat the way Jews do. Why not? Is it somehow sacreligious or because of doctrine or Scripture?'

This is what the bulk of my last two posts have been about. Sorry if I wasn't clear. When I said, 'But I fear a longstanding prejudice such as this one will take some time before any real progress is made.', I was speaking of the anti-Gentile bias as being the root cause of the problem. And the next statement, 'So again I think it is more about who is doing the observing rather than how a thing is observed.', was in reference to who (non-Jews) was doing the observing (whether Sabbath or anything else) as opposed to the actual practice or method of observation.

Greeting Talmidim and all here,

Although I am asking you I invite all replies. Since there are very few Jewish members here and this is an MJ forum let me ask this. How do you differentiate between the Jews and the Gentiles under the MJ umbrella. If someone is Jewish and practices that faith then it seems simple. But I don't understand how MJ's do it with other MJ's. Please enlighten me.

Thank you an Shalom.

David

 

[Chaplain David]

Do not assume it is a prejudice. It is the understanding of the Torah which brings Judaism to the conclusion that Gentiles should not keep the Sabbath like the Jewish people do.

Thank you. Is it a one-up manship kind of thing. I am first in line because I am Jewish. You are next because you are gentile?

Please always assume that my questions are not fraught with any attitude or guilt but are being made to learn. God bless you and Shalom for all of us,