A Annihilationist's response to Revelation 14&20?

[Of Mike and Men]

Hello,

I am reading on different views of Hell. Before people flood this thread stating that annihilationism is heresy, I ask that you refrain from such comments.

I am curious what an annihilationist's response would be to Revelation 14:11 and 20:10 Which read:

Revelation 14:11 "And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name."

Revelation 20:10 "And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

How then, despite the rest of scripture speaking of death, destruction, perishing, etc., can you interpret this to mean that the impenitent will be destroyed finally?

 

[GrowingSmaller]

I am not annihilationist but:

It may be hyperbole.

"For ever" to me (and this is quite subjective) can apply to temporary things because I wrote this, and that is true for ever and ever. So the temporal has an eternalised aspect.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Revelation 14:11 "And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name."

I am not annihilationist but:

It may be hyperbole.

"For ever" to me (and this is quite subjective) can apply to temporary things because I wrote this, and that is true for ever and ever. So the temporal has an eternalised aspect.

That could also be said for that great City burning in Revelation [which I and many others view as OC Jerusalem]

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of the tormenting of them is ascending into Ages to-Ages.......... [Luke 16:24,26]

Reve 19:3 And a second-time they have declared "allelouia and the smoke of Her is ascending into the Ages of the Ages"

http://www.christianforums.com/t7611544/
Eternal Suffering or Annihilation?



.

 

[Of Mike and Men]

The Lazarus thing was very informative. Very interesting stuff. That guy sounds like a genius with OT theology... bump.

 

[Ronald]

I am curious what an annihilationist's response would be to Revelation 14:11 and 20:10 Which read:

Revelation 14:11 "And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name."

Revelation 20:10 "And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

Anioios is the word translated into eternal or everlasting. It has variable meanings since it is mostly used to describe things that are temporal, things that will pass away. In that sense it means: an age, ages, a generation, a lifetime, or even the world. When it refers to God, heaven or our salvation, it means either with no beginning and no ending or forward in time infinitely.
"and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages." Rev. 20:10 YLT
Youngs literal translation allows for these variations. Everlasting would correctly mean age-lasting or age-during.
BTW. Destroy and perish mean exactly what we know them to mean, to put an end to, exterminate, etc. Destruction may contain a period of time but it will come to an end. It does not have an extended infinite meaning, like an indestructible destruction or imperishable perishing -- that's contradictory. The second death is a death of both body and soul in the Lake of Fire "'And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna." Matt.10:28 YLT Gehenna is a more real physical, on earth, reference to Hell (Lake of Fire). Jesus used this term condemning the Pharisees.
The former things will pass away, all things created. Hades will be thrown into the Lake and Satan and his demons along with all who have not been washed by the blood of Christ.

Also notice in Rev.14:11, it says day and night. In the New Jerusalem which is heaven, there will be no more night, sun or moon or stars, since God will illuminate everything. So you see, that verse refers to the time during the Millennial kingdom, and before the first earth is destroyed in a fervent heat along with the elements (including the Lake of Fire) I gotta say, this is far out stuff.

 

[Jipsah]

Hello,

I am reading on different views of Hell. Before people flood this thread stating that annihilationism is heresy, I ask that you refrain from such comments.

It plainly isn't heresy, as it contradicts nothing contained in the ancient creeds of the Church.

 

[Of Mike and Men]

Very interesting. I wonder why this view has been rejected from so many churches. The more I read about it, the more in makes sense. Any other inputs, please share.

 

[Of Mike and Men]

I have a quick question, it may not belong in this thread, but where can I learn more about OT theology and even NT? It seems that there are very many well informed answers here, and I can only aspire to learning such things. I've thought about biblical survey classes, but I don't have the money.

 

[Timothew]

I recommend this book:
http://www.amazon.com/Fire-That-Consumes-Historical-Punishment/dp/0595143423

 

[PROPHECYKID]

Hello,

I am reading on different views of Hell. Before people flood this thread stating that annihilationism is heresy, I ask that you refrain from such comments.

I am curious what an annihilationist's response would be to Revelation 14:11 and 20:10 Which read:

Revelation 14:11 "And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name."

Revelation 20:10 "And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

How then, despite the rest of scripture speaking of death, destruction, perishing, etc., can you interpret this to mean that the impenitent will be destroyed finally?

1. There are scriptures in the bible to suggest the wicked will finally be destroyed.

2. There are many instances in the bible which uses expressions such as "for ever" but was not referring to how we would measure the length of forever.

Now to point #1 here are a few scriptures.

Psa 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

1Co 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Burning forever or eternal torment cannot be compromised with being destroyed, perishing, being consumed or being burnt up. It is either one or the other. The reality is that after the wicked is thrown into the lake of fire, God will at some time create a New Heaven and a New Earth which cannot be done if this scene of destruction is still taking place. All things will become new and no remnants on the past shall remain which includes the lake of fire and destruction of the wicked.

To point #2.

Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

(Sodom and Gomorrah are not still burning)

1Ch 28:4 Howbeit the LORD God of Israel chose me before all the house of my father to be king over Israel for ever: for he hath chosen Judah to be the ruler; and of the house of Judah, the house of my father; and among the sons of my father he liked me to make me king over all Israel:

(David is no longer King over Israel)

There are more that I can't remember now but you get the idea. Words such as forever, is dependant on the subject for its length. Eternal, everlasting and forever when God is the subject really does mean forever, because God is eternal in the truest sense. Forever, in reference to a man is limited to the lifespan on the man. Husbands and wives take vows to love each other forever, but that is limited to their life. Same thing applies to the wicked in the lake of fire, they would experience the lake of fire forever, but as long as they are alive, until they are finally consumed, destroyed, perished. The wages of sin is death not eternal torment. To die means to perish. The reward of the saved, is eternal life. The reward of the wicked cannot be eternal life (in torment) as well.

 

[abysmul]

Very interesting. I wonder why this view has been rejected from so many churches. The more I read about it, the more in makes sense. Any other inputs, please share.

Practices, in the hands of men, change over time. Take a look at how the New Testament describes the worship services/practices of the first Christians... then walk into the majority of modern church services and note the differences.

Our modern concept of Hell can fairly easily be traced back historically, and in my opinion clearly doesn't go back to the time of the original Christians.

 

[Timothew]

Reformation should be a continuous activity, until all errors are rooted out.

 

[Lysimachus]

Hello,

I am reading on different views of Hell. Before people flood this thread stating that annihilationism is heresy, I ask that you refrain from such comments.

I am curious what an annihilationist's response would be to Revelation 14:11 and 20:10 Which read:

Revelation 14:11 "And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name."

Revelation 20:10 "And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

How then, despite the rest of scripture speaking of death, destruction, perishing, etc., can you interpret this to mean that the impenitent will be destroyed finally?

You may find this helpful:

Where did John the Revelator derive his "forever" terminology from?

From Isaiah 34!

Isaiah
34:4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.
34:5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.
34:6 The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, [and] with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the LORD hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.
34:7 And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness.
34:8 For it is the day of the LORD's vengeance, [and] the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion.
34:9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.
34:10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.
34:11 But the cormorant and the bittern shall possess it; the owl also and the raven shall dwell in it: and he shall stretch out upon it the line of confusion, and the stones of emptiness.
34:12 They shall call the nobles thereof to the kingdom, but none [shall be] there, and all her princes shall be nothing.
34:13 And thorns shall come up in her palaces, nettles and brambles in the fortresses thereof: and it shall be an habitation of dragons, and a court for owls.
34:14 The wild beasts of the desert shall also meet with the wild beasts of the island, and the satyr shall cry to his fellow; the screech owl also shall rest there, and find for herself a place of rest.
34:15 There shall the great owl make her nest, and lay, and hatch, and gather under her shadow: there shall the vultures also be gathered, every one with her mate.
34:16 Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them.
34:17 And he hath cast the lot for them, and his hand hath divided it unto them by line: they shall possess it for ever, from generation to generation shall they dwell therein.
​

Can we see what's going on here? We see that while the smoke rises up forever and ever, and the fire is not quenched, right after, in the same land where that fire is burning, we find owls laying their nests, thorns growing, beasts out in the pasture, the ravens dwelling in it, and it "lieing WASTE". When something lies "WASTE", there is no fire burning.

Therefore, now we can see clearer Jewish and Hebrew terminology. For the smoke to rise up forever and ever simply means that the smoke rises up "forever and ever OUT OF SIGHT!" In other words, it goes up forever and ever and leaves forever. Rises up forever out of sight. Isaiah 34 is the death-knell against the "eternal torment" theory when quoting Revelation, because the proponents of it simply fail to realize where John is deriving his cryptic and poetic terminology from.

 

[listed]

If I were to believe in annihilation, I wouldn't be wasting time here.

What is interesting to me is if punishment isn't forever then why is life forever? Isn't it the same words that describe both?

 

[Of Mike and Men]

Eternal life is only promised to the believers. Destruction is promised to the wicked, which, is an eternal punishment. Christ didn't say eternal punishing.

 

[Timothew]

If I were to believe in annihilation, I wouldn't be wasting time here.

What is interesting to me is if punishment isn't forever then why is life forever? Isn't it the same words that describe both?

Yes, sir! The same word describes both Eternal Life which is LIFE that lasts forever, and Eternal Punishment, the results of which punishment last forever. Once you are dead, the punishment of death lasts forever.

Is that reasonable, or will you now come up with a different objection in order to hang on to what you always believed?

 

[PROPHECYKID]

Eternal life is only promised to the believers. Destruction is promised to the wicked, which, is an eternal punishment. Christ didn't say eternal punishing.

Which is correct because eternal punishing means that the one being punished must be given eternal life and that is the opposite of death.

 

[Lysimachus]

If I were to believe in annihilation, I wouldn't be wasting time here.

What is interesting to me is if punishment isn't forever then why is life forever? Isn't it the same words that describe both?

The opposite of life is death, not punishing. Punishment (meaning, you will stay dead forever) is forever, but "punishing" is not forever. Punishment is the execution, and the results of that punishment, which is death, is eternal.

There never again be another resurrection after the Second Death.