Why We Should not Pray to the Saints

[Eternally Optimistic]

It's Scripture. Tell God He's heretical.. I Thes.4:16

I've already responded to the false claim that that verse means a spiritual death "in Christ".

 

[Eternally Optimistic]

Not only does insisting that the intercession of the saints is impossible require one to insist that Jesus is a liar in the Gospels, and that in fact eternal life really means "a spiritual death in Christ", it also requires one to insist that prayer is nothing more than a physical exchange and activity, which is again absurd.

 

[Thekla]

Are you suggesting they did not die?

John 11:26

2 Corinthians 5:8

Psalm 22:26

Jeremiah 31:15 - 17

for a start

 

[Thekla]

No. What is your point? All those that went to heaven or hell had to
DIE first. They died.

Their bodies died.

 

[Thekla]

It's Scripture. Tell God He's heretical.. I Thes.4:16

same verse, so same response:

So the question becomes, did Christ mean what He stated (those who live/zoe in me shall never die) ?

Are those who are absent from the body really present with Christ (Paul) ?

If the answer to these two questions is "yes", then those who are with Christ who are "absent" from their bodies (a corpse) will be reunited with their resurrected body at the second coming.

 

[Standing Up]

a physical death is not the same as saying they are spiritually dead in Christ, which is what one has to believe to truly reject the intercession of the saints. To insist that there is a spiritual death "in Christ" is in direct opposition to the clear teaching of the Gospel, Scripture in general, and the whole teaching of Christianity for the ages.

Relax.

No one in this thread has suggested Christians are spiritually dead in Christ. You (and others) have constructed a windmill at which to tilt

The point is no apostles instructed any Christian to invoke the "dead in Christ". Ask the living in Christ (on earth-does that help) all you want.

 

[Thekla]

Relax.

No one in this thread has suggested Christians are spiritually dead in Christ. You (and others) have constructed a windmill at which to tilt

The point is no apostles instructed any Christian to invoke the "dead in Christ". Ask the living in Christ (on earth-does that help) all you want.

So death divides the body of Christ ?

I disagree; I believe that Jesus Christ conquered death.

 

[Eternally Optimistic]

Relax.

No one in this thread has suggested Christians are spiritually dead in Christ. You (and others) have constructed a windmill at which to tilt

The point is no apostles instructed any Christian to invoke the "dead in Christ". Ask the living in Christ (on earth-does that help) all you want.

and you and others have yet to demonstrate what the difference is between the two is except to say one is physically present the other isn't. So again it is an assertion that prayer is reduced to a mere physical exercise.

 

[Thekla]

and you and others have yet to demonstrate what the difference between the two is except to say one is physically present the other isn't. So again it is an assertion that prayer is reduced to a mere physical exercise.

Or, to put it another way, that the physical hearing is greater/stronger than the spiritual hearing ...

 

[Eternally Optimistic]

Or, to put it another way, that the physical hearing is greater/stronger than the spiritual hearing ...

exactly...well put, thank you.

 

[Standing Up]

and you and others have yet to demonstrate what the difference is between the two is except to say one is physically present the other isn't. So again it is an assertion that prayer is reduced to a mere physical exercise.

Surely you've heard about whether Mary can hear simultaneous prayers to her?

God can.

Beyone that, like I said, the windmill is all yours.

PS. What's up with confessing your faults/sins to a priest, rather than to the dead in Christ?

JM 5:16
Confess [your] faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

 

[Eternally Optimistic]

Surely you've heard about whether Mary can hear simultaneous prayers to her?

God can.

Beyone that, like I said, the windmill is all yours.

PS. What's up with confessing your faults/sins to a priest, rather than to the dead in Christ?

JM 5:16
Confess [your] faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

I confess to almighty God, to blessed Mary ever virgin, to all the saints of heaven, and to you my brothers and sisters that I have sinned exceedingly in my thoughts, and in my words, in what I have done, and in what I have failed to do, through my faults, through my faults, through my most grievous faults. Therefore, I ask blessed Mary ever virgin, all the saints, and you my brothers and sisters to pray for me to the Lord our God.

see we do!

 

[Humble Pie]

Sorry, this is a long thread so I haven't been able to read through all the posts yet. My question is based on curiosity. Has anyone ever had their prayers answered after praying to a saint?

 

[Thekla]

Surely you've heard about whether Mary can hear simultaneous prayers to her?

God can.

Beyone that, like I said, the windmill is all yours.

PS. What's up with confessing your faults/sins to a priest, rather than to the dead in Christ?

JM 5:16
Confess [your] faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

"One another" ... does that include those in the body of Christ ?

The created realm includes time and space - the Creator is before time and space which He created.

How is time and space experienced without a body, in eternity, in Christ ?

 

[Eternally Optimistic]

Sorry, this is a long thread so I haven't been able to read through all the posts yet. My question is based on curiosity. Has anyone ever had their prayers answered after praying to a saint?

I would have to say yes. A few years ago I was struggling to decide whether to stay at a job that was secure but not what I thought I was called to do, or go against every inclination of myself and take the risk to pursuing a different career all together. I prayed the novena of St. Jude, and quite quickly it became very clear that I should do the latter...which scared me, but I did it; and thank God I did, I am now in a career I absolutely love, doing what I am meant to be doing, and have never been more blessed or satisfied. It wasn't necessarily an easy transition, but very worth it, and every fear and obstacle I thought I would face was matched with most unexpected "fixes" along the way.

So yes, in many ways, I do attribute where I am today to the intercession of St. Jude.

 

[Thekla]

Sorry, this is a long thread so I haven't been able to read through all the posts yet. My question is based on curiosity. Has anyone ever had their prayers answered after praying to a saint?

Some years ago, we were forced to move - our Landlord was selling the property where we were living.

We prayed and searched for a house for months, as did our brothers and sisters in Christ, but seemed no closer to finding a place to live that could fit our large family and was also affordable. We eventually widened our search to a more affordable area (a different state), and my husband requested a transfer. It was getting closer to our moving date, and still no house for us ...

My father (a Protestant minister) who had also been praying (he and my mother are truly people of prayer and full trust in God !) called to say that we should ask St. Nicholas of Myra to join our prayers. Initially, it took a bit of a search to find the identity of the Saint; my father had 'seen' the sign of an anchor and was told this was "of the Saint". Not knowing the associated symbol, my parents searched and discovered the anchor was associated - in the west - with St. Nicholas.

I was a bit stunned at these events, but we did indeed ask St. Nicholas, then the namesake of our homeschool, for his prayers. Within days, we had found a home.

We moved to our new home, and began attending the closest Church; the St. Nicholas Orthodox Church. ( A bit of a surprise, indeed.)

Wondrous is God in His Saints who glorify Him

 

[jackmt]

I've already responded to the false claim that that verse means a spiritual death "in Christ".

Not spiritual death; physical death. Why won't you accept the distinction being made and talk about it? There is physical death and there is spiritual death. We say that one ought not pray to or for those who are physically dead. You keep dodging the issue. Is it because you know the emperor has no clothes?

 

[Eternally Optimistic]

Not spiritual death; physical death. Why won't you accept the distinction being made and talk about it? There is physical death and there is spiritual death. We say that one ought not pray to or for those who are physically dead. You keep dodging the issue. Is it because you know the emperor has no clothes?

on what basis to claim that a physical body is necessary for one to pray? Isn't prayer a spiritual thing, NOT a physical thing?

 

[jackmt]

on what basis to claim that a physical body is necessary for one to pray? Isn't prayer a spiritual thing, NOT a physical thing?

Scripture. On what basis do you claim it is not?

 

[Eternally Optimistic]

Scripture. On what basis do you claim it is not?

Scripture? please show me where Scripture says that the important part of prayer is the physical ability to move ones lips, rather than a spiritual exercise.

Scripture as well:

Jer 29:13 comes to mind.