The Prosperity Doctrine

[Simon Peter]

I simply disagree with you that wealth is not one of the blessings of the covenant. The Bible is pretty clear:

Looking at his disciples, he said: "Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God.
Luke 6:20

"But woe to you who are rich, for you have already received your comfort.
Luke 6:24


Some claim that God has chosen those who are rich in faith to be rich in the world, but Hebrews says:

Listen, my dear brothers: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith
James 2:5a NIV



peace,
Simon

 

[dollarsbill]

I believe in health and prosperity. I just don't believe in money worship as the video displays.

 

[importunity]

Looking at his disciples, he said: "Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God.
Luke 6:20

"But woe to you who are rich, for you have already received your comfort.
Luke 6:24


Some claim that God has chosen those who are rich in faith to be rich in the world, but Hebrews says:

Listen, my dear brothers: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith
James 2:5a NIV



peace,
Simon

I speak not by commandment, but I am testing the sincerity of your love by the diligence of others. For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though He was rich, yet for your sakes He became poor, that you through His poverty might become rich. (2 Corinthians 8:8, 9 NKJV)

The context of this is Paul receiving an offering.

Now let's check out what he's saying?

He was rich
g4145. πλούσιος plousios; from 4149 ; wealthy; figuratively, abounding with: — rich.

Well you might say? That was when he was in heaven... Ok let's see.

yet for your sakes He became poor,
g4433. πτωχεύω ptōcheuō; from 4434 ; to be a beggar, i.e. (by implication) to become indigent (figuratively): — become poor.

The only time Jesus was ever at this status of a beggar or indigent was at the cross of Calvary.

It says through His poverty might become rich.
g4147. πλουτέω plouteō; from 4148 ; to be (or become) wealthy (literally or figuratively): — be increased with goods, (be made, wax) rich.

This proves that Part of what Jesus did on the cross was to break poverty. And by the way prosperity IS NOT money. Money is a byproduct of prosperity. The life of God flowing in us is prosperity.

 

[rturner76]

I speak not by commandment, but I am testing the sincerity of your love by the diligence of others. For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though He was rich, yet for your sakes He became poor, that you through His poverty might become rich. (2 Corinthians 8:8, 9 NKJV)

The context of this is Paul receiving an offering.

Now let's check out what he's saying?

He was rich
g4145. πλούσιος plousios; from 4149 ; wealthy; figuratively, abounding with: — rich.

Well you might say? That was when he was in heaven... Ok let's see.

yet for your sakes He became poor,
g4433. πτωχεύω ptōcheuō; from 4434 ; to be a beggar, i.e. (by implication) to become indigent (figuratively): — become poor.

The only time Jesus was ever at this status of a beggar or indigent was at the cross of Calvary.

It says through His poverty might become rich.
g4147. πλουτέω plouteō; from 4148 ; to be (or become) wealthy (literally or figuratively): — be increased with goods, (be made, wax) rich.

This proves that Part of what Jesus did on the cross was to break poverty. And by the way prosperity IS NOT money. Money is a byproduct of prosperity. The life of God flowing in us is prosperity.

Nah, I'll go with the original intent...Rich in spirit, not in Mammon, riches of this world etc. Y'all got to get this money doctrine out, it makes you look really bad. Jesus was a poor richeous teacher his whole ministry. Traveled on foot sleeping where he could, eating what, when he could, and never talked about accumilating wealth, in fact talked about the opposite. "Sell everything you own, give the money to the poor and follow me." THAT will make one prosperous in spirit for sure. Cadillacs, and Benzos, Rolex Bling, mere trinkets of excess to show off our reward we have achieved in this world. Not The Kingdom. I'm sorry I have to be so hard headed about this one. I believe it's why Catholic Priests take a vow of poverty.

 

[rturner76]

I doo want to say that there is nothing wrong with being prosprous and making good business decisions. You don't need to be a poor person to be a good person. It is the intention of what are you after? Do you pray for money or God's will to be done n your life? That is the point I'm trying to make. I have done the money thing and it's great, you CAN do things for people, but what I didn't always see was people also need you as a person to be there. Making money is great don't get me wrong, but is that the purpose of life? I thought it was about building a relationship with God. I found when I was humble, and did more things for people with my time and was there for people with a ride or a coffee or a phone call, I did just as much if not more good than making money and helping someone financially. I still give to the food shelf without writing a check to the food shelf. I give my cans and my time. I try and touch people with love in myheart and I think that is what Jesus was talking about. Not accumilation wealth for the sake of financial prosperity. "Sell everything you have, give the money to the poor and follow me." Is a real lesson on what are you willing to do for your calling? I'm sorry if I seem to come off like I'm against your leaders, we all have our things that speak to our spirit and this is one for me.

 

[psalms 91]

I agree that prosperity is much more than money, it is God supplying and providing all I need, emotionally, spiritually, and physically, so money is a part but not the end all.

 

[dkbwarrior]

Nah, I'll go with the original intent...Rich in spirit, not in Mammon, riches of this world etc.

Well, that wouldn't be original intent, as has already been explained. It is obviously your intent though. More power to ya'. However, if you want to know the truth, then all scripture needs to be interpreted in context, and that one is a no brainer. Not to mention, Jesus said "Blessed are the poor in spirit...". Not sure why you would even want to be rich in spirit. We are poor in spirit, which is why we need Jesus.

Y'all got to get this money doctrine out, it makes you look really bad.

That is no concern of mine. I will stay true to the Word of God no matter what it "makes me look like". Jesus looked so bad to the world of His time that they cricufied Him. Therefore I can only find myself in good company, if following the Word makes me look bad to those who are not following the Word. As Paul said in Romans, "Let God be true but every man a liar". By the way, it was the religious folk of His day that persecuted Him. Eerily familiar sounding, isn't it?

Jesus was a poor richeous teacher his whole ministry.

Jesus was never poor until He was on the cross. Now, He might have been poor in comparison to when He was in heaven, but in earthly terms, He had enough money that He needed a treasurer. The only time we are told exactly how much money was in the bag that Judas the treasurer held (and you certainly don't need a treasurer to hold an empty bag) is when Philip said that they had 200 pennies in the bag before Jesus fed the 4,000. A penny was a days wage for a laborer. In todays dollars, if you used a low non-union labor wage of ten dollars an hour times 8 hours a day, that would be $80.00 a day. Multiply that by 200, and you get $16,000.00. A man is not likely top be poor if he is carrying sixteen thousand dollars in cash on him.

Peace...

 

[Simon Peter]

The only time Jesus was ever at this status of a beggar or indigent was at the cross of Calvary.

It says through His poverty might become rich.
g4147. πλουτέω plouteō; from 4148 ; to be (or become) wealthy (literally or figuratively): — be increased with goods, (be made, wax) rich.

Emphasis mine.

Here's the MH commentary which conveys the historic and traditional interpretation of the passage:

that though he was rich, as being God, equal in power and glory with the Father, rich in all the glory and blessedness of the upper world, yet for your sakes he became poor; not only did become man for us, but he became poor also.

He was born in poor circumstances, lived a poor life, and died in poverty; and this was for our sakes, that we thereby might be made rich, rich in the love and favour of God, rich in the blessings and promises of the new covenant, rich in the hopes of eternal life, being heirs of the kingdom.

 

[Simon Peter]

Jesus was never poor until He was on the cross. Now, He might have been poor in comparison to when He was in heaven, but in earthly terms, He had enough money that He needed a treasurer. The only time we are told exactly how much money was in the bag that Judas the treasurer held (and you certainly don't need a treasurer to hold an empty bag) is when Philip said that they had 200 pennies in the bag before Jesus fed the 4,000. A penny was a days wage for a laborer. In todays dollars, if you used a low non-union labor wage of ten dollars an hour times 8 hours a day, that would be $80.00 a day. Multiply that by 200, and you get $16,000.00. A man is not likely top be poor if he is carrying sixteen thousand dollars in cash on him.

Peace...

Any ministry today that has only $16,000 in funds and employs at least 13 men full time (with dependants) is barely afloat.
That's a pittance.


peace,
Simon

 

[dollarsbill]

Having money is not evil. Loving it is.

Hebrews 13:5 (NASB)
5 Make sure that your character is free from the love of money, being content with what you have;

Dancing in money? Please!

 

[psalms 91]

It would be a pitttance only if you were not standing on faith for God to supply andprovide. If you see it and can touch it, it is not faith

 

[importunity]

Emphasis mine.

Here's the MH commentary which conveys the historic and traditional interpretation of the passage:

that though he was rich, as being God, equal in power and glory with the Father, rich in all the glory and blessedness of the upper world, yet for your sakes he became poor; not only did become man for us, but he became poor also.

He was born in poor circumstances, lived a poor life, and died in poverty; and this was for our sakes, that we thereby might be made rich, rich in the love and favour of God, rich in the blessings and promises of the new covenant, rich in the hopes of eternal life, being heirs of the kingdom.

I don’t pay too much attention to commentaries. They are men like you and I. If what they say lines up with scripture I accept it but if it doesn’t, I don’t. Matthew Henry was a good man, he was wrong in His conclusion about that scripture. It doesn’t go along with the proper definitions given to the words in question plus it’s not in line with what scriptures teach.

As far as being born in an impoverished house that was true until He was two. At that time some wise men (Magi, kings) came to His house and bestowed gifts upon Him.

Matt 2:10-11
10 When they saw the star, they rejoiced with exceedingly great joy. 11 And when they had come into the house, they saw the young Child with Mary His mother, and fell down and worshiped Him. And when they had opened their treasures, they presented gifts to Him: gold, frankincense, and myrrh.

· Notice that they came to His house and not the stable
· So that makes you right He was born in a home low income.
· We know this by the offering they gave according to the law of Leviticus.

BUT
There was a tradition of a king giving to a king. Each wise man was to give the same amount of Gold, the same amount of frankincense, and the same amount of myrrh. So by the time he was two His house changed.

Gold is a precious metal and has monetary value. It represented Jesus' Kingship.

Frankincense is another resin, an aromatic one, from the milky sap of the Boswellia Tree. It is used as perfume, incense and in aromatherapy today, and was used in religious rites in Jesus' time. This represented homage to God.


Myrrh is a resin (dried sap) from the Myrrh tree. It is used in perfumes and incense. It was commonly used as an embalming ointment in Jesus' day. This was a startling gift for a young boy--it represented His death.
All of these were costly gifts.

· To show that Jesus was a king.

So how much Gold did He get?
· They brought enough suitable for a king.
· It wasn’t just a few pieces of gold dust.
· One talent is approximately 131 lbs. depending on which books you read.

The King of the area saw these men coming:
· It was a massive caravan.
· They wouldn’t have paid attention if it wasn’t

So when these men came to The King of Kings:
· They presented Him with gifts fit for a KING… not a popper.


Anyhow let’s take another one.
· This same account is given in Matthew but is much more clear in Luke.
Luke 9:51-58
51 Now it came to pass, when the time had come for Him to be received up, that He steadfastly set His face to go to Jerusalem, 52 and sent messengers before His face. And as they went, they entered a village of the Samaritans, to prepare for Him. 53 But they did not receive Him, because His face was set for the journey to Jerusalem. 54 And when His disciples James and John saw this, they said, "Lord, do You want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them, just as Elijah did?"
55 But He turned and rebuked them, and said, "You do not know what manner of spirit you are of. 56 For the Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives but to save them." And they went to another village.
57 Now it happened as they journeyed on the road, that someone said to Him, "Lord, I will follow You wherever You go."
58 And Jesus said to him, "Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay His head."
NKJV

All this is saying is Jesus was going to do a meeting in Samaria, His face was flint towards Israel so they cancelled His meeting.
· They didn’t receive Him.
· That also means they did not give Him a place to stay, because we do know He had a house.
· A couple of guys wanted to check it out and they even spent the night.

John 1:38-39
38 Then Jesus turned, and seeing them following, said to them, "What do you seek?"
They said to Him, "Rabbi" (which is to say, when translated, Teacher), "where are You staying?"
39 He said to them, "Come and see." They came and saw where He was staying, and remained with Him that day (now it was about the tenth hour).
NKJV


He had a treasurer
He had all these men leave their occupations and follow Him
· So He took on the responsibility of these families.

There is so much more scripture that when placed in context, and parallel passages that really brings this out.

Jesus wasn’t against people having things, He was against things having people.

 

[Simon Peter]

It would be a pitttance only if you were not standing on faith for God to supply andprovide. If you see it and can touch it, it is not faith

I think Dkb's point was that $16,000 is a lot of money. I'm glad you agree with me that it is not (not in that context).

I also agree that we can trust God to provide. And His provision is often as needed, rather than 6 or 7 figure incomes, large houses, fast cars, private jets, swimming pools etc...


peace,
Simon

 

[Simon Peter]

As far as being born in an impoverished house that was true until He was two. At that time some wise men (Magi, kings) came to His house and bestowed gifts upon Him.

Well if He - or His parents - followed His own advice that would have been given away to the help the poor in short order.


What about Peter, arguably the greatest Disciple:


3 When he saw Peter and John about to enter, he asked them for money.
4 Peter looked straight at him, as did John. Then Peter said, "Look at us!"
5 So the man gave them his attention, expecting to get something from them.
6 Then Peter said, "Silver or gold I do not have, but what I have I give you. In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, walk."
Acts 3:3-6 NIV

peace,
Simon

 

[importunity]

Nah, I'll go with the original intent...Rich in spirit, not in Mammon, riches of this world etc. Y'all got to get this money doctrine out, it makes you look really bad. Jesus was a poor richeous teacher his whole ministry. Traveled on foot sleeping where he could, eating what, when he could, and never talked about accumilating wealth, in fact talked about the opposite. "Sell everything you own, give the money to the poor and follow me." THAT will make one prosperous in spirit for sure. Cadillacs, and Benzos, Rolex Bling, mere trinkets of excess to show off our reward we have achieved in this world. Not The Kingdom. I'm sorry I have to be so hard headed about this one. I believe it's why Catholic Priests take a vow of poverty.

First of all the context is not talking about being rich or poor in spirit. Paul is dealing with an offering. The Example He uses is Christ. They knew in the natural when He walked the earth that money or things were never an issue. He definitely had things; you wouldn’t need a treasurer if you didn’t have treasure. People don’t gamble for crappy clothes. Money was such a non issue that if He wanted it, He could just go to the local pond and pull money out of a fish’s mouth. His teaching was to not rely on money or things but to rely on the Father. That’s why He was telling the rich young ruler to sell all he had. The rich young ruler followed every commandment but trusting God in taking care of him. He trusted in himself. He had never trusted God for provision before so he had no gage to go by. When Sarah received the promise, she judged God faithful who promised. She went back and thought about all the times God came through and He never once went back on His Word. So she had something to gage. This Rich young ruler made his own way. So he couldn’t judge God faithful who promised because it was first…

If you actually read what I wrote you would have noticed I said that MONEY is not prosperity but it’s a byproduct.

Let me give you an example:
It like a river at flood stage:
· A river at flood stage brings multiple things down the river.
· Trees, houses, cars, stereos, tvs and etc… end up in your yard.
· We call these things debris (not prosperity)
· These things are a result of the river… byproducts…debris

Prosperity is the river (life of God, Anointing of God):
· All these other things are the byproducts or debris.
· God simply wants us to be focused on the river not the debris. The debris comes by course of the river.

 

[importunity]

Well if He - or His parents - followed His own advice that would have been given away to the help the poor in short order.


What about Peter, arguably the greatest Disciple:


3 When he saw Peter and John about to enter, he asked them for money.
4 Peter looked straight at him, as did John. Then Peter said, "Look at us!"
5 So the man gave them his attention, expecting to get something from them.
6 Then Peter said, "Silver or gold I do not have, but what I have I give you. In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, walk."
Acts 3:3-6 NIV

peace,
Simon

Silver and Gold was not what was needed to fix the problem. If that was what was needed they would have had it to give. I don't always leave the house with any money or credit cards at all. but that does not mean that I have no money. it just means it's not on me. Jesus taught them how to trust in God period. it has nothing to do with money. it never has.

 

[dkbwarrior]

I think Dkb's point was that $16,000 is a lot of money. I'm glad you agree with me that it is not (not in that context).

I also agree that we can trust God to provide. And His provision is often as needed, rather than 6 or 7 figure incomes, large houses, fast cars, private jets, swimming pools etc...


peace,
Simon

My point was that $16,000 is alot of money to be carrying on you in cash. It is not all He had, or that He had access to, by a long shot. Don't forget, that certain wealthy women followed his ministry and ministered to Him of their substance, (money). Some VERY wealthy, like the wife of Herods steward:

1And it came to pass afterward, that he went throughout every city and village, preaching and shewing the glad tidings of the kingdom of God: and the twelve were with him,
2And certain women, which had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities, Mary called Magdalene, out of whom went seven devils, 3And Joanna the wife of Chuza Herod's steward, and Susanna, and many others, which ministered unto him of their substance.
-Luke 8:1-3

Plus, He was the firstborn son of His father in the line of David, He would have inherited the lot that was assigned His family, probably quite sustantial, being a descendant of David.

Peace...

 

[Simon Peter]

you wouldn’t need a treasurer if you didn’t have treasure.

Do you not know what a treasurer is?

It's a fancy or old fashioned way of saying 'accountant' or 'book keeper'.
Every ministry, rich or poor, has a financial manager.

People don’t gamble for crappy clothes.

In Roman times they did.

Most people only had one coat, and the poor (most people) only had one set of clothes. All clothes were hand made and far more valuable than today.

That said, I don't think Jesus was dressed in rags or like a wealthy person.

If you actually read what I wrote you would have noticed I said that MONEY is not prosperity but it’s a byproduct.

This is an interesting idea. Are there any scriptures that describe money as a byproduct of prosperity?



peace,
Simon

 

[Simon Peter]

My point was that $16,000 is alot of money to be carrying on you in cash. It is not all He had, or that He had access to, by a long shot. Don't forget, that certain wealthy women followed his ministry and ministered to Him of their substance, (money). Some VERY wealthy, like the wife of Herods steward:

This was a first century travelling ministry, I don't think they deposited the rest of their finances in the Bank of Rome and made withdrawals every time they stopped in a new village. The coins they had was what the ministry had.

If the stewards wife had money then it was her money. She obviously helped out, but it's difficult to say 'Jesus was rich', because the husband of one of the woman who was associated with His ministry, was rich.

Plus, He was the firstborn son of His father in the line of David, He would have inherited the lot that was assigned His family, probably quite sustantial, being a descendant of David.

Peace...

That was about 27 to 42 generations earlier. Do the math.


peace,
Simon

 

[importunity]

Do you not know what a treasurer is?

It's a fancy or old fashioned way of saying 'accountant' or 'book keeper'.
Every ministry, rich or poor, has a financial manager.




In Roman times they did.

Most people only had one coat, and the poor (most people) only had one set of clothes. All clothes were hand made and far more valuable than today.

That said, I don't think Jesus was dressed in rags or like a wealthy person.



This is an interesting idea. Are there any scriptures that describe money as a byproduct of prosperity?



peace,
Simon

I would say Jesus’ Ministry was far from poor and He would need an accountant, book keeper, treasurer, etc..
Because He had a pretty banging ministry.

Let’s see:
· He had 12 disciples
· He sent out 70
· That’s 83 with Himself included.

So Jesus’ ministry was so poor that it took care of 83 staff members and their families.
· I wish my ministry could be so poor…


In Roman times they did not do what you claim they did.
· A Roman soldier would NEVER gamble for crappy clothes, they didn’t have to.

Now as far as prosperity not being money
· All you have to do is realize that you are prosperous the moment you accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior.
· The bible tells us to seek first the Kingdom of God and His righteousness and then all this stuff that the Gentiles seek will be added.

Stuff the Gentiles seek:
· Money
· Food
· Clothes etc… byproducts