Am I going to hell?

[JaneFW]

I get the impression that this OP is trying to antagonize. Banjo Jim said it. Yep!

I actually think he is being very polite and asking interesting questions. I don't feel at all antagonized.

 

[mulimulix]

I think there should be a form of either atheism or worldview altogether (I think its secular humanism?) that should be known as "indifferentism" and behind that, they don't care whether or not god(s) exist/s. It'd sort of be:

Indifferentism : Atheism :: Deism : Theism.

I agree. There are agnostics that genuinely aren't sure on the topic and have given great thought to it and then there's agnostics who don't care. They should be separated.

 

[mulimulix]

I actually think he is being very polite and asking interesting questions. I don't feel at all antagonized.

Thanks. I try to be as respectful as possible, but sometimes, it's hard, because we have such conflicting views.

 

[ChristianT]

As per the OP, I can't judge, but it seems under the current conditions: yes, quite possibly.

 

[GrayAngel]

Atheism is the belief that God or gods don't exist. Agnosticism is the belief that we can't know whether or not gods exist. If we are born with no opinion on the existence of God, then these cannot be the default positions either. However, this does not seem to be the case, either. We seem to have an inborn interest in religion.

 

[ChristianT]

why does there have to be a default position?

 

[JaneFW]

Well, this is the point: I am also confident I will never learn that Jesus is real. How do we know who is right? Similarly, Abdul, in Pakistan, is also sure that Islam is correct. Why, then, do I choose no religion? Because it is the default position.

Abdul believes what he believes, I believe what I believe. As a Christian I am not called upon to expound on why we believe differently. I can honor other faiths.

I have heard about Jesus and what he did, but I don't see any evidence to suggest any of it happened and definitely that it doesn't translate to an almighty, all-loving god.

A loving, willing sacrifice does actually translate to an almighty all-loving God to me. Would you sacrifice your child (if you had one)? I think that Jesus's willingness to allow Himself to be stripped, whipped and murdered as payment for my sins is quite a mighty thing to do. Who of us would allow such a thing to be done to us? Even with the small power we have as ordinary people, wouldn't we fight with every ounce of being not to be crucified?

I see Jesus in so many people over the ages - His lessons learned and translated into real life. MLK is a wonderful example. What a man he was! And everything he did - he did within the framework of fully believing in God.

 

[mulimulix]

Atheism is the belief that God or gods don't exist. Agnosticism is the belief that we can't know whether or not gods exist. If we are born with no opinion on the existence of God, then these cannot be the default positions either. However, this does not seem to be the case, either. We seem to have an inborn interest in religion.

Atheism is not necessarily believing a god does not exist; it is simply not believing a god does exist - there's a difference. I will never tell you that there is definitely no god. I will say that there is most likely no god, until evidence for a god arises.

We do have an interest in religion, because we've reached a level of intelligence where we can think about the origin of everything. Humans are naturally inquisitive.

 

[ChristianT]

Atheism is not necessarily believing a god does not exist; it is simply not believing a god does exist - there's a difference. I will never tell you that there is definitely no god. I will say that there is most likely no god, until evidence for a god arises.

Would you consider yourself an agnostic-atheist?

 

[mulimulix]

Abdul believes what he believes, I believe what I believe. As a Christian I am not called upon to expound on why we believe differently. I can honor other faiths.


A loving, willing sacrifice does actually translate to an almighty all-loving God to me. Would you sacrifice your child (if you had one)? I think that Jesus's willingness to allow Himself to be stripped, whipped and murdered as payment for my sins is quite a mighty thing to do. Who of us would allow such a thing to be done to us? Even with the small power we have as ordinary people, wouldn't we fight with every ounce of being not to be crucified?

I see Jesus in so many people over the ages - His lessons learned and translated into real life. MLK is a wonderful example. What a man he was! And everything he did - he did within the framework of fully believing in God.

The story of losing his only son is not relevant if you don't think it ever happened. If god was really all-powerful and all-knowing, I see no need to have to do this.

I'm not saying there aren't any good things out of Christianity, but anything you can do, believing it's because of Christianity, a non-Christian can also do.

 

[mulimulix]

Would you consider yourself an agnostic-atheist?

No, I consider myself atheist. Any atheist which has done research of religion and irreligion should tell you that they don't say definitively that no god exists; they say that they don't believe a god exists, until further evidence arises. Matt Dillahunty, the host of The Atheist Experience TV show, says this quite often and it makes perfect sense. In science, you don't say "This doesn't exist". You say "This doesn't exist, until evidence arises which proves otherwise."

 

[JaneFW]

The story of losing his only son is not relevant if you don't think it ever happened. If god was really all-powerful and all-knowing, I see no need to have to do this.

I'm not saying there aren't any good things out of Christianity, but anything you can do, believing it's because of Christianity, a non-Christian can also do.

But if MLK had not been a Christian, perhaps he would not have had that basis of belief in himself as being just as equal as the next man (or woman). If you read anything he wrote, you will see that his strength came from his faith. If you haven't read it, his Letter from Birmingham Jail is one of the most amazing things I have ever read. He quite rightly castigates other Christian (white) leaders for standing aside, but he doesn't give up on God just because others haven't shown godliness. He's a man I very much admire, but I don't think he would have had the power and force for change without his faith. It really shone out like a beacon. Mother Theresa likewise.

I don't agree that everyone can do the same things whether they are Christians or not. In 30 years of alcoholism, I did not quit until I became a Christian. That's when I became truly galvanized. I have had others who have told me similar stories about addictions. I couldn't quit alcohol on my own evidently - or I would have done it some time in all those years. It was faith that made the difference.

 

[mulimulix]

But if MLK had not been a Christian, perhaps he would not have had that basis of belief in himself as being just as equal as the next man (or woman). If you read anything he wrote, you will see that his strength came from his faith. If you haven't read it, his Letter from Birmingham Jail is one of the most amazing things I have ever read. He quite rightly castigates other Christian (white) leaders for standing aside, but he doesn't give up on God just because others haven't shown godliness. He's a man I very much admire, but I don't think he would have had the power and force for change without his faith. It really shone out like a beacon. Mother Theresa likewise.

I don't agree that everyone can do the same things whether they are Christians or not. In 30 years of alcoholism, I did not quit until I became a Christian. That's when I became truly galvanized. I have had others who have told me similar stories about addictions. I couldn't quit alcohol on my own evidently - or I would have done it some time in all those years. It was faith that made the difference.

I'm not denying that he did it with faith in mind, but that doesn't prove anything. It doesn't prove the correctness of Christianity; it shows that, in certain situations, with certain people, it can do good things. Millions of people have done fantastic things, without religion. If you attribute the good things people do to Christianity, then you have to do the bad things, as well. The Crusades and Inquisition would not have happened if it weren't for Christianity, too.

 

[GLK]

Well, this is the point: I am also confident I will never learn that Jesus is real. How do we know who is right? Similarly, Abdul, in Pakistan, is also sure that Islam is correct. Why, then, do I choose no religion? Because it is the default position.

I have heard about Jesus and what he did, but I don't see any evidence to suggest any of it happened and definitely that it doesn't translate to an almighty, all-loving god.



That's blunt. As I've asked, how have I been exposed to the truth?



How?

I suggested that you read a book written by an ex-athiest to get the evidence. You said you had no intention of looking at that but then you asked someone else to PM you for the evidence. That is why I get the impression that you just want to argue.

You have been told where to find the evidence, you have been told the truth but you just want to argue. I don't think you are genuinely looking for information. If you are, then when you are offered something don't say you have no intention of considering it.

 

[mulimulix]

I suggested that you read a book written by an ex-athiest to get the evidence. You said you had no intention of looking at that but then you asked someone else to PM you for the evidence. That is why I get the impression that you just want to argue.

You have been told where to find the evidence, you have been told the truth but you just want to argue. I don't think you are genuinely looking for information. If you are, then when you are offered something don't say you have no intention of considering it.

What are you referring to and when did I say I wouldn't look at it?

I thought we were having a good discussion. If you don't like what I'm talking about, you're welcome to leave at any time.

 

[JaneFW]

I'm not denying that he did it with faith in mind, but that doesn't prove anything. It doesn't prove the correctness of Christianity; it shows that, in certain situations, with certain people, it can do good things. Millions of people have done fantastic things, without religion. If you attribute the good things people do to Christianity, then you have to do the bad things, as well. The Crusades and Inquisition would not have happened if it weren't for Christianity, too.

Ah but bad things happen that are not connected to Christianity - like slavery. Like WWI and WWII, Boer War, American Civil War, Korean War, Gulf War, Falklands War. Plenty of conflict out there that doesn't have anything to do with Christianity.

How do you know that millions of people have done fantastic things without religion, btw? What do you base that statement upon?

 

[Jonathan95]

It's a common argument - connecting religion (especially Christianity) to everything bad that happened. Well just saying, not all that call themselves Christians really are Christians!

 

[mulimulix]

Ah but bad things happen that are not connected to Christianity - like slavery. Like WWI and WWII, Boer War, American Civil War, Korean War, Gulf War, Falklands War. Plenty of conflict out there that doesn't have anything to do with Christianity.

How do you know that millions of people have done fantastic things without religion, btw? What do you base that statement upon?

I'm saying that with or without religion, bad things will happen (however, I think less bad things would happen without religion). Trying to categorise which bad things are associated with religion or no religion is futile and pointless, as the conflicts you listed had many causes. I could say the cause of WW2 was because of religion, because Hitler was Catholic and said he was doing the work of god. But this would be overlooking his other motives and the fact that Japan had already been fighting with China since the beginning of the '30s, for completely different reasons.

To make the argument that Christianity has prevented conflict is simply ignorant. As I mentioned, the Crusades and Inquisition were among the deadliest and prolonged attacks in history and you can't say that wasn't done by Christians.

Another point is that the conflicts you mentioned have nothing to do with religion. What I mean by this is that the Falklands War would have happened whether Christianity existed or not. Same with all the others.

Bad things happen because of religion and good things happen because of religion. It is impossible to say that Christianity is a major good for keeping peace in the world.

Also, you say slavery is not due to Christianity. You should probably read parts of the Old Testament.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I think I asked this a long time ago, but think it's appropriate to ask again:

Do you believe I, a good, law-abiding, atheist, will go to hell, when I die? Why/why not?

Nobody on this thread is qualified to answer this. Not about you or any other human being on the planet or throughout the entire course of history.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[GLK]

But, this is based on the idea that Christianity is true. If you knew that Jesus never existed or was a fraud and the Judeo-Christian god is fake, would you still live the same way?



I have no desire to attempt to go to Christianity. I mentioned quite a while ago that I am perfectly happy without a religion and see no reason to believe in a god, let alone the Judeo-Christian god, and believe me; I have looked at arguments for god *hundreds* of times.

I figure that if god wants me to believe in him, he should have to come to me, as I see no reason to come to him.

Right here is where you said it. I realize that the demon in you is getting angry but God can deal with that. This all belongs to God so I don't have to leave because I am a Child of God.