What do nonCatholics think of this Catholic teaching?

[Whisper of Hope]

Whisper,

Try a history book written by an Anglican historian. Anglicans seem to be about as unbiased of historians that are not Catholic you are going to find. And evangelicals seem to be the most bias.

Also for the most part Catholic historians seem to be relatively unbiased about history as well, but I know you won't accept that from me, so stick with the Anglican historians.

Thank you for your suggestion. I'll take it into consideration.

The article you read is not from a true historian but rather a son of the Father of Lies. For if this person was actually a true Christian, he wouldn't have to resort to lying to get this point across. There is plenty of things that have happened in the history of Christianity that can be discussed without falling into lying.

As you probably already guessed, I disagree with your assessment of the article and its author.

 

[Whisper of Hope]

Originally Posted by Ave Maria Well, I am a Catholic and I definitely believe in redemptive suffering. I offer up my suffering every day, often for the holy souls in Purgatory.

This is Part I of my response to your statement above. I decided to split this post into two separate posts, because the original message I posted was far too long. I also thought it would be easier for you to read and to respond, if I shortened it. The second part of my response to you is here. I'm replying to your post because I was wondering if you would be willing to discuss the subject of purgatory with me. The questions I would like to ask you are taken from my previous post in this thread, located here. Before I go any further in writing this post, I would like to make it clear to you that I am by no means questioning your salvation nor trying to judge you or belittle your personal faith. I am not trying to be harsh and I certainly don't want to insult you, offend you, or hurt your feelings. It is my sincerest intention for my words or deeds to be done in the name in Jesus and for my words and deeds to glorify God (Colossians 3:17).
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According to Scripture: Jesus bore our sins, nailed them to the cross once and for all.

Question 1: Do you believe that Jesus bore your sins and nailed them to the cross once and for all?

Scriptural References:

Colossians 2:14; 1 Peter 2:24; 1 Peter 3:18
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According to Scripture: Jesus' sacrifice on the cross was sufficient enough to atone for our sins.

Question 2: Do you believe that Jesus’ death on the cross was sufficient enough to pay the penalty for ALL of your sins?

Scriptural References:

Romans 3:25; Romans 5:8-9; Hebrews 7:27; 1 Peter 1:18-19; 1 John 2:2; 1 John 4:10
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According to Scripture: His suffering and death on the cross appeased God's wrath against sin.

Question 3: If you have to atone for your sins in purgatory then doesn't that deny the sufficiency of Jesus' atoning sacrifice on the cross?

Scriptural References:

Isaiah 53:4-6; Romans 3:24-26; Romans 11:6; Hebrews 2:17; Hebrews 9:26; Hebrews 10:10-18; 1 Peter 2:24
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According to Scripture: Our works of righteousness are like filthy rags to God and the sacrifice of the wicked is detestable to Him and an abomination to Him.

Question 4: How will you be able to atone for your sins in purgatory when your own works of righteousness are like filthy rags to God?

Scriptural References:

Isaiah 64:6; Proverbs 15:8; Proverbs 21:27
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According to Scripture: Before we believed and accepted Christ as our Savior, we are under the condemnation and under the wrath of God. We
were storing up wrath against us to be revealed when we stand before God on the Day of Judgment. God render to each of us according to what we have done.

Question 5: If you have to atone for your sins in purgatory, then wouldn't that mean you are still under condemnation and still a child of wrath?

Scriptural References:

John 3:18; John 3:36; Romans 1:18-32; Romans 2:5-6; Ephesians 2:3; Revelation 2:23; Revelation 20:12; Revelation 22:12

I would like to bump up this post, which is my first response to Ave Maria's post.

 

[Whisper of Hope]

Originally Posted by Ave Maria Well, I am a Catholic and I definitely believe in redemptive suffering. I offer up my suffering every day, often for the holy souls in Purgatory.

Hello again, Ave Maria. Grace and peace to you from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ. This post is Part II of my response to your above statement (for easy reference, the first part of my reply is here). I would like to express to you again that I do not want to insult you, offend you, or hurt your feelings. I am not questioning your salvation nor trying to judge you or belittle your personal faith. It is my sincerest intention for my words or deeds to be done in the name in Jesus and for my words and deeds to glorify God (Colossians 3:17). I look forward to your reply, Ave Maria. God bless you.

According to Scripture, we are not saved by our works, but by the grace of God through our faith in Jesus Christ (John 1:12-13; 3:16-18; 3:36; 4:14; 5:24; 6:26-27; 6:35-40; 6:47-51; 6:54; 10:27-29; 11:25-26; 12:44-46; 17:1-5; Romans 3:16-18; 21-26; 4:2-6; 5:1-11; 6:22-23; 8:1; 9:31-33; 10:9-10; 1 Corinthians 1:4-9; 2 Corinthians 5:17-19; Ephesians 1:13-14; 2:4-10; Colossians 1:13-14; 2:10; Galatians 2:16; 2:21; 3:4; Titus 1:2; Titus 3:4-7; 1 John 5:9-13; 1 John 5:20), in accordance with the riches of His grace (Ephesians 1:7-8). Do you believe that you are not saved by your works, but by the grace of God through your faith in Jesus Christ? Do you believe God did not appoint you to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Thessalonians 5:9-10)?

And this is what I believe: I'm a born again (John 3:3-7) follower (Mark 8:34) and disciple (John 8:31-32) of Jesus Christ (Philippians 2:5-8). I am redeemed (Colossians 1:13-14), justified (Romans 3:21-26), forgiven (Ephesians 1:7-10), and sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise (Ephesians 1:13-14), because of God's grace (Ephesians 2:8-9) demonstrated to me through the cross of Christ (Romans 5:8). I'm a new creation in Him (2 Corinthians 5:17), free of sin (Romans 6:18) and condemnation (Romans 8:1), and I now have eternal life through Him (1 John 5:13). He now lives in me (Galatians 2:20), giving me the strength to live for Him (Philippians 4:13). There's nothing that can separate me from Him (Romans 8:35-39) or snatch me from His hand (John 8:28-29). I'm not ashamed to suffer (Matthew 5:10-12) or die for Him (Philippians 1:21). Nothing else in life can compare with knowing Him (Philippians 3:7-11). May I never boast in anything except in the cross of my Savior and Lord, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world (Galatians 6:14).

I also want to bump up this post to Ave Maria, in the hopes that she will find my two replies to her post easier.

 

[Albion]

Uh, no, it's not. But some posters immediately turned it into an RCC bash fest.

s

You are correct, but I think that the title suggests something that the text of the OP did not. IOW, I wouldn't say that "some posters" turned it into something unintended, given the title that the writer of the OP chose--as misleading as it might have been.

And by the way, the OP--apart from the title--doesn't pose a question or raise any new issue, so any reader would naturally feel that there was an implicit invitation to share ideas about whatever was said.

 

[squint]

You are correct, but I think that the title suggests something that the text of the OP did not. IOW, I wouldn't say that "some posters" turned it into something unintended, given the title that the writer of the OP chose--as misleading as it might have been.

And by the way, the OP--apart from the title--doesn't pose a question or raise any new issue, so any reader would naturally feel that there was an implicit invitation to share ideas about whatever was said.

It seemed pretty clear to most posters the first few pages to be about purgatory.

s

 

[Albion]

It seemed pretty clear to most posters the first few pages to be about purgatory.

s

I'd guess that that's because the OP was on the page in front of them. Now it's buried under a pile of more recent posts and no one is even quoting the OP in their replies. Therefore, the title is what they go by.

 

[Albion]

Discuss whatever doctrine you think relevant, Gerry. The OP certainly was not confined toe Purgatory but was a rambling post that touched upon the whole mindset of Roman Catholicism, including "offering up" life's setbacks, the nature of Purgatory, forgiveness of sin, mortal vs venial sins, and the benefits to the person doing the 'redemptive suffering.'

 

[Standing Up]

BUMP

The Catholic Church teaches that our sufferings can be offered up 4 such things as



the souls in Purgatory - that they may "loosed from their sins" (Macabees 12:46 ... or is it 2 Macc??)

expiation of our sins

the repentence of some sinner or other




I think this is beautiful, knowing that our sufferings can do good 4 someone, a very great act of charity.

it is great because when one is suffering, it is not always easy to think of others, but if you do, and offer it for this person or that, the suffering takes on new meaning... (and is not wasted)

also our sufferings can be offered to expiate forgiven sins

it is not that we are not forgiven of our sins, its that we are cleansing ourselves of the damage caused by the sin... Sin leaves a stain on the soul..

 

[steve_bakr]

The Catholic Church teaches that our sufferings can be offered up 4 such things as

the souls in Purgatory - that they may "loosed from their sins" (Macabees 12:46 ... or is it 2 Macc??)

expiation of our sins

the repentence of some sinner or other

I think this is beautiful, knowing that our sufferings can do good 4 someone, a very great act of charity.

it is great because when one is suffering, it is not always easy to think of others, but if you do, and offer it for this person or that, the suffering takes on new meaning... (and is not wasted)

also our sufferings can be offered to expiate forgiven sins

it is not that we are not forgiven of our sins, its that we are cleansing ourselves of the damage caused by the sin... Sin leaves a stain on the soul..

The OP seems primarily to do with redemptive suffering, a Catholic doctrine which most Protestants are unaware of. One Biblical basis for redemptive suffering is the following:

Colossians 1:24 CPDV
"For now I rejoice in my passion on your behalf, and I complete in my flesh the things that are lacking in the Passion of Christ, for the sake of his body, which is the Church."

You see here that Paul says he is suffering on behalf of his disciples (redemptive suffering) and he relates his suffering to the Passion of Christ, for the sake of the Church.

 

[Albion]

The OP seems primarily to do with redemptive suffering, a Catholic doctrine which most Protestants are unaware of. One Biblical basis for redemptive suffering is the following:

Colossians 1:24 CPDV
"For now I rejoice in my passion on your behalf, and I complete in my flesh the things that are lacking in the Passion of Christ, for the sake of his body, which is the Church."

You see here that Paul says he is suffering on behalf of his disciples (redemptive suffering) and he relates his suffering to the Passion of Christ, for the sake of the Church.

What I see there is a possible association of one's sufferings with those of Christ. What I DO NOT SEE THERE is the unBiblical and irrational extension of it that is Roman Catholic theology at its most inventive--that doing this so-called redemptive suffering is 1) meritorious with God, and/or 2) can be somehow applied to souls thought to be in 3)Purgatory in order to 4) pay off some or all of the suffering they are supposed to be enduring.

All of that is pure fantasy and contrary to the Gospel. So sure, link your own sufferings with Christ's sacrifice on the Cross if you wish and if this sharpens your own understanding of what he REALLY suffered on our behalf, but don't fall for the rest of this.

 

[steve_bakr]

What I see there is a possible association of one's sufferings with those of Christ. What I DO NOT SEE THERE is the unBiblical and irrational extension of it that is Roman Catholic theology at its most inventive--that doing this so-called redemptive suffering is 1) meritorious with God, and/or 2) can be somehow applied to souls thought to be in 3)Purgatory in order to 4) pay off some or all of the suffering they are supposed to be enduring.

All of that is pure fantasy and contrary to the Gospel. So sure, link your own sufferings with Christ's sacrifice on the Cross if you wish and if this sharpens your own understanding of what he REALLY suffered on our behalf, but don't fall for the rest of this.

The verse, Colossians 1:24, alludes to Paul's suffering on behalf of others--that's redemptive suffering.

 

[Albion]

The verse, Colossians 1:24, alludes to Paul's suffering on behalf of others--that's redemptive suffering.

The "others" were his listeners, so it is obvious that this has nothing whatever to do with throwing your newly earned merit to the poor souls in Purgatory in order to make a withdrawal from the Treasury of Merit that can be applied to their sentences, etc., etc. and all of that.

 

[squint]

The "others" were his listeners, so it is obvious that this has nothing whatever to do with throwing your newly earned merit to the poor souls in Purgatory in order to make a withdrawal from the Treasury of Merit that can be applied to their sentences, etc., etc. and all of that.

There are some simple principles that seem to have fallen away from neo-theology.

The fact is that Christ suffers with our own suffering. The body of Christ on earth is currently in suffering. In all our afflictions, HE Is also afflicted as we ARE 'members' of His Body.

1 Peter 4:1
Therefore, since Christ suffered in his body, arm yourselves also with the same attitude, because whoever suffers in the body is done with sin.

The 'source' of our current suffering remains the suffering of and with SIN in the BODY.

1 Corinthians 12:26
If one part suffers, every part suffers with it;

So, what is it that both 'we' and they who have passed await?

Hebrews 11:40
God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

The Whole Body will not be made Perfect until EVERY PART comes in.

s

 

[Albion]

Nicely worded. Fun to imagine, but little of it goes to what you want us to believe--just like your misinterpretation of Colossians.

 

[Whisper of Hope]

Nicely worded. Fun to imagine, but little of it goes to what you want us to believe--just like your misinterpretation of Colossians.

 

[steve_bakr]

I have turned to the dictionary for the definition of "REDEMPTION" and what it says is this...Deliverance from sin and damnation wrought by CHRIST'S atonement.

I accept that as a good definition.

When Christ hung on the cross, before HE gave up the ghost, HE cried out "IT IS FINISHED".
I take that to mean ..... THE REDEMPTIVE SUFFERING PART OF THE ATONEMENT.
It is not necessary for me to flagellate myself or crawl a mile over broken glass to be redeemed...JESUS paid it all and HE was/is the PERFECT (Sacrifice) LAMB OF GOD. If any man would suggest otherwise, I would tell him to take it up with GOD because HE is the one who gave HIS only begotten SON, that I/WE might have eternal life..... Salvation by GRACE through FAITH and that not of ourselves, it is the GIFT of GOD, and not of works lest any man should boast.
It is that GRACE, that FAITH, that GIFT that will manifest in us the good works that we shall do because we LOVE HIM.

Read more of Colossians.

21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. 22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— 23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

G.

If Jesus Christ be GOD and died for me, then no sacrifice is too great for me to make for HIM.

What is your reading of Colossians.1:24?

 

[steve_bakr]

Nicely worded. Fun to imagine, but little of it goes to what you want us to believe--just like your misinterpretation of Colossians.

What is your reading of Colossians 1:24?

 

[steve_bakr]

There are some simple principles that seem to have fallen away from neo-theology.

The fact is that Christ suffers with our own suffering. The body of Christ on earth is currently in suffering. In all our afflictions, HE Is also afflicted as we ARE 'members' of His Body.

1 Peter 4:1
Therefore, since Christ suffered in his body, arm yourselves also with the same attitude, because whoever suffers in the body is done with sin.

The 'source' of our current suffering remains the suffering of and with SIN in the BODY.

1 Corinthians 12:26
If one part suffers, every part suffers with it;

So, what is it that both 'we' and they who have passed await?

Hebrews 11:40
God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

The Whole Body will not be made Perfect until EVERY PART comes in.

s

What does it say about the text of Colossians 1:24?

 

[Albion]

What is your reading of Colossians 1:24?

Will it matter to you? You haven't even bothered to comment on my explanation as to why your interpretation of Col 1.24 can't be correct.

 

[steve_bakr]

Will it matter to you? You haven't even bothered to comment on my explanation as to why your interpretation of Col 1.24 can't be correct.

I was establishing the precedent for redemptive suffering, not all of Catholic theology. That would take a great deal of time, so I am sticking with that basic idea. If you have more detailed questions, I'm sure the folks at OBOB can help you, but remember when there you can only ask questions, not argue.

And, yes, I would be interested in your reading of Colossians 1:24. I know a lot of Protestants, and I was one for many years. I am also married to a Protestant, so my attititude is Catholics & Protestants, not Catholics vs Protestants. To understand each other is the best approach.