What do nonCatholics think of this Catholic teaching?

[Whisper of Hope]

Originally Posted by Ave Maria Well, I am a Catholic and I definitely believe in redemptive suffering. I offer up my suffering every day, often for the holy souls in Purgatory.

Hello again, Ave Maria. Grace and peace to you from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ. This post is Part II of my response to your above statement (for easy reference, the first part of my reply is here). I would like to express to you again that I do not want to insult you, offend you, or hurt your feelings. I am not questioning your salvation nor trying to judge you or belittle your personal faith. It is my sincerest intention for my words or deeds to be done in the name in Jesus and for my words and deeds to glorify God (Colossians 3:17). I look forward to your reply, Ave Maria. God bless you.

According to Scripture, we are not saved by our works, but by the grace of God through our faith in Jesus Christ (John 1:12-13; 3:16-18; 3:36; 4:14; 5:24; 6:26-27; 6:35-40; 6:47-51; 6:54; 10:27-29; 11:25-26; 12:44-46; 17:1-5; Romans 3:16-18; 21-26; 4:2-6; 5:1-11; 6:22-23; 8:1; 9:31-33; 10:9-10; 1 Corinthians 1:4-9; 2 Corinthians 5:17-19; Ephesians 1:13-14; 2:4-10; Colossians 1:13-14; 2:10; Galatians 2:16; 2:21; 3:4; Titus 1:2; Titus 3:4-7; 1 John 5:9-13; 1 John 5:20), in accordance with the riches of His grace (Ephesians 1:7-8). Do you believe that you are not saved by your works, but by the grace of God through your faith in Jesus Christ? Do you believe God did not appoint you to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Thessalonians 5:9-10)?

And this is what I believe: I'm a born again (John 3:3-7) follower (Mark 8:34) and disciple (John 8:31-32) of Jesus Christ (Philippians 2:5-8). I am redeemed (Colossians 1:13-14), justified (Romans 3:21-26), forgiven (Ephesians 1:7-10), and sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise (Ephesians 1:13-14), because of God's grace (Ephesians 2:8-9) demonstrated to me through the cross of Christ (Romans 5:8). I'm a new creation in Him (2 Corinthians 5:17), free of sin (Romans 6:18) and condemnation (Romans 8:1), and I now have eternal life through Him (1 John 5:13). He now lives in me (Galatians 2:20), giving me the strength to live for Him (Philippians 4:13). There's nothing that can separate me from Him (Romans 8:35-39) or snatch me from His hand (John 8:28-29). I'm not ashamed to suffer (Matthew 5:10-12) or die for Him (Philippians 1:21). Nothing else in life can compare with knowing Him (Philippians 3:7-11). May I never boast in anything except in the cross of my Savior and Lord, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world (Galatians 6:14).

 

[Rick Otto]

In the Mary thread, a poster was saying the source for praying to saints (the deceased in Christ) arose out from Judaism.

I'm wondering how many practices were retained in Christianity?

Given how virulently some groups, especially at Nicea and after, like with Chrysostom, railed against Judaistic practices, it is very odd so much was apparently retained (priests, sacrifices, praying to the dead, papacy (high priest on earth), etc). It's like a don't do what I say (don't practice Jewish stuff), but do what I do (practice Jewish stuff). Quite a disconnect.

First glance:
Main article: History of purgatory
While use of the word "purgatory" (in Latin purgatorium) as a noun appeared perhaps only between 1160 and 1180, giving rise to the idea of purgatory as a place (what Jacques Le Goff called the "birth" of purgatory), the Roman Catholic tradition of purgatory as a transitional condition has a history that dates back, even before Jesus, to the worldwide practice of caring for the dead and praying for them, and to the belief, found also in Judaism, from which Christianity grew, that prayer for the dead contributed to their afterlife purification. The same practice appears in other traditions, such as the medieval Chinese Buddhist practice of making offerings on behalf of the dead, who are said to suffer numerous trials. Roman Catholic belief in purgatory is based, among other reasons, on the previous Jewish practice of prayer for the dead, a practice that presupposes that the dead are thereby assisted between death and their entry into their final abode.
The English Roman Catholic scholar Cardinal John Henry Newman argued that the essence of the doctrine is locatable in ancient tradition, and that the core consistency of such beliefs is evidence that Christianity was "originally given to us from heaven". Roman Catholics consider the teaching on purgatory to be part of the faith derived from the revelation of Jesus Christ that was preached by the apostles. Theologians and other Christians then developed the doctrine regarding purgatory over the centuries, leading to the definition of the formal doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church on the matter (as distinct from the legendary descriptions) at the Second Council of Lyon (1274), the Council o Florence (1438–1445), and the Council of Trent (1545–63). -Wiki

 

[Albion]

the Roman Catholic tradition of purgatory...dates back, even before Jesus, to the worldwide practice of caring for the dead and praying for them, and to the belief, found also in Judaism, from which Christianity grew, that prayer for the dead contributed to their afterlife purification.

This is about as meaningful a definition of Purgatory as saying that a flood is a lot of water. It avoids about 90% of what makes Purgatory what it is.

Theologians and other Christians then developed the doctrine regarding purgatory over the centuries, leading to the definition of the formal doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church on the matter (as distinct from the legendary descriptions) at the Second Council of Lyon (1274), the Council o Florence (1438–1445), and the Council of Trent (1545–63).

True, as far as it goes.

My reason for commenting here is to say that it would really be interesting to know where all the other characteristics of Purgatory that were developed over the centuries came from. Various theologians' speculations, I would suppose.

 

[Standing Up]

First glance:
Main article: History of purgatory
While use of the word "purgatory" (in Latin purgatorium) as a noun appeared perhaps only between 1160 and 1180, giving rise to the idea of purgatory as a place (what Jacques Le Goff called the "birth" of purgatory), the Roman Catholic tradition of purgatory as a transitional condition has a history that dates back, even before Jesus, to the worldwide practice of caring for the dead and praying for them, and to the belief, found also in Judaism, from which Christianity grew, that prayer for the dead contributed to their afterlife purification. The same practice appears in other traditions, such as the medieval Chinese Buddhist practice of making offerings on behalf of the dead, who are said to suffer numerous trials. Roman Catholic belief in purgatory is based, among other reasons, on the previous Jewish practice of prayer for the dead, a practice that presupposes that the dead are thereby assisted between death and their entry into their final abode.
The English Roman Catholic scholar Cardinal John Henry Newman argued that the essence of the doctrine is locatable in ancient tradition, and that the core consistency of such beliefs is evidence that Christianity was "originally given to us from heaven". Roman Catholics consider the teaching on purgatory to be part of the faith derived from the revelation of Jesus Christ that was preached by the apostles. Theologians and other Christians then developed the doctrine regarding purgatory over the centuries, leading to the definition of the formal doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church on the matter (as distinct from the legendary descriptions) at the Second Council of Lyon (1274), the Council o Florence (1438–1445), and the Council of Trent (1545–63). -Wiki

So, do we actually have the apostles teaching this? Or is it simply one of the Jewish myths (Paul) that has made it's way into the Church of the Living God?

Source is Judaism for purgatory (further cleansing). There's only one sacrifice for sin (Hebrews). Those myths from Judaism weren't Christianity.

Why do people believe Jewish practice?

 

[Albion]

So, do we actually have the apostles teaching this?

I think you put your finger on a key point there. From what I know, the answer is "no," they did not.

But if someone wants to make the case that the apostles did, fine. The fact that 1) they chose Matthias to replace Judas or that 2) some, like Paul who was not one of the Twelve, sent other men into the missionary fields, doesn't do it, however.

 

[Rick Otto]

So, do we actually have the apostles teaching this? Or is it simply one of the Jewish myths (Paul) that has made it's way into the Church of the Living God?

Source is Judaism for purgatory (further cleansing). There's only one sacrifice for sin (Hebrews). Those myths from Judaism weren't Christianity.

Why do people believe Jewish practice?

Roots? Fascination with age & ethnicity?
It gets wearisome trying to identify with a perfect God?
Shoot me, I'm clueless.

 

[Rick Otto]

This is Part I of my response to your statement above. I decided to split this post into two separate posts, because the original message I posted was far too long. I also thought it would be easier for you to read and to respond, if I shortened it. The second part of my response to you is here. I'm replying to your post because I was wondering if you would be willing to discuss the subject of purgatory with me. The questions I would like to ask you are taken from my previous post in this thread, located here. Before I go any further in writing this post, I would like to make it clear to you that I am by no means questioning your salvation nor trying to judge you or belittle your personal faith. I am not trying to be harsh and I certainly don't want to insult you, offend you, or hurt your feelings. It is my sincerest intention for my words or deeds to be done in the name in Jesus and for my words and deeds to glorify God (Colossians 3:17).
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
According to Scripture: Jesus bore our sins, nailed them to the cross once and for all.

Question 1: Do you believe that Jesus bore your sins and nailed them to the cross once and for all?

Scriptural References:

Colossians 2:14; 1 Peter 2:24; 1 Peter 3:18
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
According to Scripture: Jesus' sacrifice on the cross was sufficient enough to atone for our sins.

Question 2: Do you believe that Jesus’ death on the cross was sufficient enough to pay the penalty for ALL of your sins?

Scriptural References:

Romans 3:25; Romans 5:8-9; Hebrews 7:27; 1 Peter 1:18-19; 1 John 2:2; 1 John 4:10
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
According to Scripture: His suffering and death on the cross appeased God's wrath against sin.

Question 3: If you have to atone for your sins in purgatory then doesn't that deny the sufficiency of Jesus' atoning sacrifice on the cross?

Scriptural References:

Isaiah 53:4-6; Romans 3:24-26; Romans 11:6; Hebrews 2:17; Hebrews 9:26; Hebrews 10:10-18; 1 Peter 2:24
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
According to Scripture: Our works of righteousness are like filthy rags to God and the sacrifice of the wicked is detestable to Him and an abomination to Him.

Question 4: How will you be able to atone for your sins in purgatory when your own works of righteousness are like filthy rags to God?

Scriptural References:

Isaiah 64:6; Proverbs 15:8; Proverbs 21:27
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
According to Scripture: Before we believed and accepted Christ as our Savior, we are under the condemnation and under the wrath of God. We
were storing up wrath against us to be revealed when we stand before God on the Day of Judgment. God render to each of us according to what we have done.

Question 5: If you have to atone for your sins in purgatory, then wouldn't that mean you are still under condemnation and still a child of wrath?

Scriptural References:

John 3:18; John 3:36; Romans 1:18-32; Romans 2:5-6; Ephesians 2:3; Revelation 2:23; Revelation 20:12; Revelation 22:12

That was yesterday. I hope you didn't scare her off. (lol)
You present a formidable response. She may be buried in research or headin' for the beach. I'd love to see all your questions answered as well as you asked them.

 

[Whisper of Hope]

That was yesterday. I hope you didn't scare her off. (lol)
You present a formidable response. She may be buried in research or headin' for the beach. I'd love to see all your questions answered as well as you asked them.

I hope I didn't scare her off either.

I didn't feel a sense of foreboding when I read her post. I didn't sense a contemptuous attitude from her or sense any hostility from the tone of her post either. I feel confident she won't try to assassinate my character or resort to childish name calling or use sarcastic, condescending remarks when replying to me. In other words, I don't think she will pounce on me and try to rip me to pieces for asking her to talk to me about her Catholic faith. I read a few of her posts in the OBOB forum (simply out of curiosity) and I sensed a gentle, kind nature about her. I sincerely hope she would be willing to talk to me here.

 

[brinny]

Originally Posted by Ave Maria Well, I am a Catholic and I definitely believe in redemptive suffering. I offer up my suffering every day, often for the holy souls in Purgatory.

Hello again, Ave Maria. Grace and peace to you from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ. This post is Part II of my response to your above statement (for easy reference, the first part of my reply is here). I would like to express to you again that I do not want to insult you, offend you, or hurt your feelings. I am not questioning your salvation nor trying to judge you or belittle your personal faith. It is my sincerest intention for my words or deeds to be done in the name in Jesus and for my words and deeds to glorify God (Colossians 3:17). I look forward to your reply, Ave Maria. God bless you.

According to Scripture, we are not saved by our works, but by the grace of God through our faith in Jesus Christ (John 1:12-13; 3:16-18; 3:36; 4:14; 5:24; 6:26-27; 6:35-40; 6:47-51; 6:54; 10:27-29; 11:25-26; 12:44-46; 17:1-5; Romans 3:16-18; 21-26; 4:2-6; 5:1-11; 6:22-23; 8:1; 9:31-33; 10:9-10; 1 Corinthians 1:4-9; 2 Corinthians 5:17-19; Ephesians 1:13-14; 2:4-10; Colossians 1:13-14; 2:10; Galatians 2:16; 2:21; 3:4; Titus 1:2; Titus 3:4-7; 1 John 5:9-13; 1 John 5:20), in accordance with the riches of His grace (Ephesians 1:7-8). Do you believe that you are not saved by your works, but by the grace of God through your faith in Jesus Christ? Do you believe God did not appoint you to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Thessalonians 5:9-10)?

And this is what I believe: I'm a born again (John 3:3-7) follower (Mark 8:34) and disciple (John 8:31-32) of Jesus Christ (Philippians 2:5-8). I am redeemed (Colossians 1:13-14), justified (Romans 3:21-26), forgiven (Ephesians 1:7-10), and sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise (Ephesians 1:13-14), because of God's grace (Ephesians 2:8-9) demonstrated to me through the cross of Christ (Romans 5:8). I'm a new creation in Him (2 Corinthians 5:17), free of sin (Romans 6:18) and condemnation (Romans 8:1), and I now have eternal life through Him (1 John 5:13). He now lives in me (Galatians 2:20), giving me the strength to live for Him (Philippians 4:13). There's nothing that can separate me from Him (Romans 8:35-39) or snatch me from His hand (John 8:28-29). I'm not ashamed to suffer (Matthew 5:10-12) or die for Him (Philippians 1:21). Nothing else in life can compare with knowing Him (Philippians 3:7-11). May I never boast in anything except in the cross of my Savior and Lord, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world (Galatians 6:14).

amen, and a very gracious response, sister.

 

[Nanopants]

This is Part I of my response to your statement above. I decided to split this post into two separate posts, because the original message I posted was far too long. I also thought it would be easier for you to read and to respond, if I shortened it. The second part of my response to you is here. I'm replying to your post because I was wondering if you would be willing to discuss the subject of purgatory with me. The questions I would like to ask you are taken from my previous post in this thread, located here. Before I go any further in writing this post, I would like to make it clear to you that I am by no means questioning your salvation nor trying to judge you or belittle your personal faith. I am not trying to be harsh and I certainly don't want to insult you, offend you, or hurt your feelings. It is my sincerest intention for my words or deeds to be done in the name in Jesus and for my words and deeds to glorify God (Colossians 3:17).
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
According to Scripture: Jesus bore our sins, nailed them to the cross once and for all.

Question 1: Do you believe that Jesus bore your sins and nailed them to the cross once and for all?

Scriptural References:

Colossians 2:14; 1 Peter 2:24; 1 Peter 3:18
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
According to Scripture: Jesus' sacrifice on the cross was sufficient enough to atone for our sins.

Question 2: Do you believe that Jesus’ death on the cross was sufficient enough to pay the penalty for ALL of your sins?

Scriptural References:

Romans 3:25; Romans 5:8-9; Hebrews 7:27; 1 Peter 1:18-19; 1 John 2:2; 1 John 4:10
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
According to Scripture: His suffering and death on the cross appeased God's wrath against sin.

Question 3: If you have to atone for your sins in purgatory then doesn't that deny the sufficiency of Jesus' atoning sacrifice on the cross?

Scriptural References:

Isaiah 53:4-6; Romans 3:24-26; Romans 11:6; Hebrews 2:17; Hebrews 9:26; Hebrews 10:10-18; 1 Peter 2:24
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
According to Scripture: Our works of righteousness are like filthy rags to God and the sacrifice of the wicked is detestable to Him and an abomination to Him.

Question 4: How will you be able to atone for your sins in purgatory when your own works of righteousness are like filthy rags to God?

Scriptural References:

Isaiah 64:6; Proverbs 15:8; Proverbs 21:27
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
According to Scripture: Before we believed and accepted Christ as our Savior, we are under the condemnation and under the wrath of God. We
were storing up wrath against us to be revealed when we stand before God on the Day of Judgment. God render to each of us according to what we have done.

Question 5: If you have to atone for your sins in purgatory, then wouldn't that mean you are still under condemnation and still a child of wrath?

Scriptural References:

John 3:18; John 3:36; Romans 1:18-32; Romans 2:5-6; Ephesians 2:3; Revelation 2:23; Revelation 20:12; Revelation 22:12

Amen! I think those are all some very deep and pertinent questions that we should all have an answer for.

 

[Tzaousios]

I didn't sense a contemptuous attitude from her or sense any hostility from the tone of her post either. I feel confident she won't try to assassinate my character or resort to childish name calling or use sarcastic, condescending remarks when replying to me. In other words, I don't think she will pounce on me and try to rip me to pieces for asking her to talk to me about her Catholic faith.

Who has been doing this?

 

[Rick Otto]

Who has been doing this?

Why ask? She is saying she doesn't expect it.
It's a GOOD thing, don't try to fix it! You're poking at a bee's nest that isn't even there.
You got PTGTFS? (Post-Traumatic General Theology Forum Syndrome)

 

[steve_bakr]

I believe in both redemptive suffering and in purgatory, but I accept that other Christians may not. What makes us Christians is our mutual belief in Jesus Christ, and the basic fundamentals of Christian theology as laid out in the Nicene Creed.

 

[sunlover1]

I believe in both redemptive suffering and in purgatory, but I accept that other Christians may not. What makes us Christians is our mutual belief in Jesus Christ, and the basic fundamentals of Christian theology as laid out in the Nicene Creed.

Amen.
We were having a discussion the other day and here is my post
that got pushed a few pages back and so missed by you.

Thanks for your honest opinions.
sunlover

As a generic Christian, I agree.

Here is where you lose me...


In no way do I intend to be offensive but to me, this is just wrong.
To in any way compare MY pain ... (brought on by lack of proper nutrition,
lack of exercise and failure to care for my body properly, living with anxiety
and stress (which is lack of faith= sin)... etc.) to the pain God endured,
which was brought on NOT by His sin or lack, but was needful for one end
only and that being you and me!... So yeah, I maybe still don't understand
what you mean...

Bear willingly our own suffering would be to never
use pain meds and also to assume it IS His will for me to suffer.
This malady has impeded my praise and worship time.. in so much pain sometimes
all I can do is cry. It's taken away from my prayer time, in which I engage
in intercessory prayer for the saints...
That doesnt even include the fact that I only recently went into business,
with 2 streams of income, of which it hurts too much to even think let alone
work sometimes...
So I still don't quite "get it". Seems to me it would be the enemy who'd
seek to kill me and destroy my body that I might be incapable of spreading
His love...praying for the saints... etc.

Did God SAY to join this with the suffering of God, or did He say "If you're
sick, pray for healing"?
See what I mean? It has to all add up and it's not adding up.

IMO
blessings
sunlover

 

[Whisper of Hope]

You got PTGTFS? (Post-Traumatic General Theology Forum Syndrome)

Is that contagious?

 

[apocolypticremedy999]

The Catholic Church teaches that our sufferings can be offered up 4 such things as



the souls in Purgatory - that they may "loosed from their sins" (Macabees 12:46 ... or is it 2 Macc??)

expiation of our sins

the repentence of some sinner or other




I think this is beautiful, knowing that our sufferings can do good 4 someone, a very great act of charity.

it is great because when one is suffering, it is not always easy to think of others, but if you do, and offer it for this person or that, the suffering takes on new meaning... (and is not wasted)

also our sufferings can be offered to expiate forgiven sins

it is not that we are not forgiven of our sins, its that we are cleansing ourselves of the damage caused by the sin... Sin leaves a stain on the soul..

I'm definitely not Catholic, and no offence to anyone, but I am against the Catholic church and I identify them as our modern-day Pharisees. However, I do believe in something like Purgatory. I believe that when we die, we do not go directly to heaven or hell, but rather, we "rest" so to speak in the dust until judgment day. There have been very few that have risen to everlasting life already, such as Moses, Elijah, etc. etc. But when we rest in the dust, we do sleep as in darkness as we await for God to raise us up on the last day, and this is Biblical. This isn't necessarily "Purgatory" as the Catholics like to call it, but it is similar in that we are resting in darkness. I do not believe that we have a chance to repent and be forgiven during this rest, for we are only given this chance during life on earth.

As far as expiation of our sins go; I do believe that some of our suffering on earth, even as believers, is indeed for the purpose of expiation of our sins.

 

[Rick Otto]

As far as expiation of our sins go; I do believe that some of our suffering on earth, even as believers, is indeed for the purpose of expiation of our sins.

I'll witness that.
I get instant wrath sometimes, especialy for willful transgression.
But even when it stings, it can be delivered with humor & mercy.

 

[eachallberg]

I'm definitely not Catholic, and no offence to anyone, but I am against the Catholic church and I identify them as our modern-day Pharisees.

Catholic should be all Christians, but its coined to a religion that was pushed by an empire. The Church is not a building or an organization. Pharisees are Jews. I'm for everybody and the good in them, because I don't believe in favoritism.

However, I do believe in something like Purgatory. I believe that when we die, we do not go directly to heaven or hell, but rather, we "rest" so to speak in the dust until judgment day...
But when we rest in the dust, we do sleep as in darkness as we await for God to raise us up on the last day, and this is Biblical. This isn't necessarily "Purgatory" as the Catholics like to call it, but it is similar in that we are resting in darkness.

...There have been very few that have risen to everlasting life already, such as Moses, Elijah, etc. etc...

Christ is the only one to been risen to life.
Moses and Elijah are being reserved. Maybe the 2 witnesses spoken of in Revelation making the prophecy true that every man will die. Ect as in Enoch?

I do not believe that we have a chance to repent and be forgiven during this rest, for we are only given this chance during life on earth.

Maybe after rest?

As far as expiation of our sins go; I do believe that some of our suffering on earth, even as believers, is indeed for the purpose of expiation of our sins.

I don't.

Christ atoned for are sins and are suffering is a result of 2 forces at work in everybody.

Peace be to you all.

 

[Erose]

Do you mean the 'real' history that has been unbiasedly written by people within the Roman Catholic Church? Well, your opinion is duly noted. However, I don't agree with you or with any of the indoctrination you have been exposed to while you have in a member of the Catholic Church. And I'm well aware of what the "true Church" is and who it consists of, as it has been written in Scripture, and it is not nor has it ever been confined within the Roman Catholic Church.

Whisper,

Try a history book written by an Anglican historian. Anglicans seem to be about as unbias of historians that are not Catholic you are going to find. And evangelicals seem to be the most bias.

Also for the most part Catholic historians seem to be relatively unbias about history as well, but I know you won't accept that from me, so stick with the Anglican historians.

The article you read is not from a true historian but rather a son of the Father of Lies. For if this person was actually a true Christian, he wouldn't have to resort to lying to get this point across. There is plenty of things that have happened in the history of Christianity that can be discussed without falling into lying.

 

[Standing Up]

Whisper,

Please read real history. Junk like that should be insulting to all Christians because if the only way you can debate is by deception... Well we all know who the father of lies is.

Do you agree or disagree with this:

" Even a cursory reading of the New Testament will reveal that the Catholic Church does not have its origin in the teachings of Jesus or His apostles. In the New Testament, there is no mention of the papacy, worship/adoration of Mary (or the immaculate conception of Mary, the perpetual virginity of Mary, the assumption of Mary, or Mary as co-redemptrix and mediatrix), petitioning saints in heaven for their prayers, apostolic succession, the ordinances of the church functioning as sacraments, infant baptism, confession of sin to a priest, purgatory, indulgences, or the equal authority of church tradition and Scripture. So, if the origin of the Catholic Church is not in the teachings of Jesus and His apostles, as recorded in the New Testament, what is the true origin of the Catholic Church? "
http://www.gotquestions.org/origin-Catholic-church.html