The Truth Beneath It All.

[HeathenWarrior]

Good Evening/Day to you.

There are some nagging thoughts that I have finally decided to write down and ask about. I will accept any and all answers/comments.

As my title suggests, my biggest wonder is what is the truth beneath it all? We as a people come from vastly different religious backgrounds and beliefs, and many of us have beliefs that contradict each other completely. This has resulted throughout history in some ofd the most saddest and terrible episodes of humanity. The invasion and genocide of the Canaanites, The persecution of the early Christians, the wars against the pagan peoples in all corners of the world, the crusades, the inquisition, and now the current Jihad against the West, perputated by radical Imams who are twisting their own faith for benefit.

We are essentially allowing differences in beliefs, something that in reality means very little, to make us hate and wish harm on one another. We are seeing people with different beliefs as inhuman and beneath us. You could say that religious beliefs are bringing out the worst in us all, though that is often not the case.

I am a lover of history, so I have researched and studied these atrocities with a interest, and we are also witnessing this in our current world. It truly breaks my heart to see humanity killing each other over petty things.

But as to the point of this, I have noticed a similar theme that courses through all religions. The Abrahamic faiths, Buddhism, Confucianism, Many pagan religions, Hinduism, and many others. And whenever you study these religions, there always seems to be the underlying rule. "Do to others what you would have them do to you."

My thought is that, would you say that there is a sort of primal connection between all religions, despite all the dogma, rules, and other beliefs that we heap on it? That this one rule is, in reality, the one rule to follow?

Now, personally, I think that that is the truth in it's most basic form. That whatever power forged us made within us this one simple rule, and we have heaped upon it all these extra rules such as "follow this particular religion", or "Believe in this man or burn in Hell". Why does our religious preferences mean anything in the long run? As a matter of fact, why does our belief matter at all? If we follow this one rule, would everything else not fall into place? In this life and the next?

I think so. Because in the end Love wins. It always will.

 

[Faulty]

Our belief matters because of John 3:16-18.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God."

 

[drich0150]

Good Evening/Day to you.

There are some nagging thoughts that I have finally decided to write down and ask about. I will accept any and all answers/comments.

As my title suggests, my biggest wonder is what is the truth beneath it all? We as a people come from vastly different religious backgrounds and beliefs, and many of us have beliefs that contradict each other completely. This has resulted throughout history in some ofd the most saddest and terrible episodes of humanity. The invasion and genocide of the Canaanites, The persecution of the early Christians, the wars against the pagan peoples in all corners of the world, the crusades, the inquisition, and now the current Jihad against the West, perpetuated by radical Imams who are twisting their own faith for benefit.

We are essentially allowing differences in beliefs, something that in reality means very little, to make us hate and wish harm on one another. We are seeing people with different beliefs as inhuman and beneath us. You could say that religious beliefs are bringing out the worst in us all, though that is often not the case.

I am a lover of history, so I have researched and studied these atrocities with a interest, and we are also witnessing this in our current world. It truly breaks my heart to see humanity killing each other over petty things.

But as to the point of this, I have noticed a similar theme that courses through all religions. The Abraham faiths, Buddhism, Confucianism, Many pagan religions, Hinduism, and many others. And whenever you study these religions, there always seems to be the underlying rule. "Do to others what you would have them do to you."

Then you have over looked the "belief" we all share in order to unify the act of doing unto others. Their is always a reason for this action. In the Abrahamic faiths, the doing unto others is the result of an all encompassing love for God. The Greatest Command there is NOT doing unto to others, but Loving God with all of your being.

In Buddhism the goal is personal enlightenment as away to end ignorance.

I believe you are confused about Confucianism in that it is not a religion (No God) Confucianism is the worship of self and society. As a result a do unto other policy would be essential.

Hinduism's, take on the golden rule plays to the believer as a way to balance one's karma.

You are only wanting to look at the results of the various religion and not the means or intention of those who believers who are involved in these acts. That would be like saying I don't care how there is peace in the middle east so long as people stop fighting... As a self professed student of History you should know better.

Speaking of which ,I have noticed you failed to mention the one religion not at peace with the theology of treating others as you would like to be treated. Any particular reason why? Subsequently do you know what their beliefs demand for peace? Death for all of those who appose their God. So what do we do with those who believe in the radical form of this religion?

My thought is that, would you say that there is a sort of primal connection between all religions, despite all the dogma, rules, and other beliefs that we heap on it? That this one rule is, in reality, the one rule to follow?

No again, without the reasons why we follow the rules the act of following means absolutely nothing unless you are a humanist or a confusists. Kinda convenient for the world's religion, but it leaves the rest of us with nothing.

Now, personally, I think that that is the truth in it's most basic form. That whatever power forged us made within us this one simple rule, and we have heaped upon it all these extra rules such as "follow this particular religion", or "Believe in this man or burn in Hell".

Ah, no. The largest religion is Christianity with just over 33%(Again it's primary rule is to Love God first) of the worlds population, the Next being Islam with just over 21%(No golden rule unless you are of the faith) the other religions you mention make up less than 20% of the combined worlds religions.
(According to:Top Ten Organized Religions of the World — Infoplease.com)

This means you are attempting to take a foot note of religious philosophy and trying to stretch it to encompass all of other faiths... Not cool. This is what happens when you focus on an act, and sell your soul/integrity to obtain a goal, You trade things like integrity and honor for a now meaningless result.
This is Humanism 101, but for the rest of us. Belief is far more important than the mechanics or illusions of unity.

Why does our religious preferences mean anything in the long run?

Long run like eternity?

As a matter of fact, why does our belief matter at all? If we follow this one rule, would everything else not fall into place? In this life and the next?

No. Because if we sell our souls to obtain your goal then we sell out our various beliefs in God to obtain a self serving objective. Religion is not about us. Faith worship Religion is supposed to be about God no matter what you believe. (That is why confusisim is not a religion)

I think so. Because in the end Love wins. It always will.

Define Love. Now who are we supposed to love? Why?

 

[GrayAngel]

Belief does matter, because Jesus is the only justification for us going to Heaven. It matters because no matter what you believe, reality will not fix itself to fit whatever faith you personally prefer.

"Do unto others as you would have them do to you" is another way of saying, "Love your neighbor as yourself." This is only the second most important law. Without the first law, this one is useless.

That being said, I believe it is inaccurate to say that religion starts wars, because as you've pointed out, most of them promote peace. The problem, then, is with people, not religion. Without religion to supposedly justify their actions (which would require reversing the role of religion and desire, making desire the interpreter of religion), we would have just as many wars.

 

[HeathenWarrior]

While I agree your answers for the most part, there are a few I think you have stretched a little too far.

Then you have over looked the "belief" we all share in order to unify the act of doing unto others. Their is always a reason for this action. In the Abrahamic faiths, the doing unto others is the result of an all encompassing love for God. The Greatest Command there is NOT doing unto to others, but Loving God with all of your being.

To Love others is to love "God". As Christians are fond of saying, Love is God. If I recall, that is what Jesus of Nazareth preached was the key.

In Buddhism the goal is personal enlightenment as away to end ignorance.

I believe you are confused about Confucianism in that it is not a religion (No God) Confucianism is the worship of self and society. As a result a do unto other policy would be essential.

Hinduism's, take on the golden rule plays to the believer as a way to balance one's karma.

Buddhism, yes that is right. Hinduism, you are correct as well. As for Confucianism not being a religion, that depends on what you define as a religion. It has worship of something, thus it counts as one for me. But that is a debate for another time.

You are only wanting to look at the results of the various religion and not the means or intention of those who believers who are involved in these acts. That would be like saying I don't care how there is peace in the middle east so long as people stop fighting... As a self professed student of History you should know better.

I am quite aware of the means, thank you. As a History lover, I would be very much aware of them.

Speaking of which ,I have noticed you failed to mention the one religion not at peace with the theology of treating others as you would like to be treated. Any particular reason why? Subsequently do you know what their beliefs demand for peace? Death for all of those who appose their God. So what do we do with those who believe in the radical form of this religion?

If there is a religion like that, I have not heard of it. But you seem to have a distaste for this "one religion" if you point them out. What religion would that be?

No again, without the reasons why we follow the rules the act of following means absolutely nothing unless you are a humanist or a confusists. Kinda convenient for the world's religion, but it leaves the rest of us with nothing.

It would seem we follow these rules due to the dogma we heap upon the only rule we need. And I assure you, I am not a Humanist.

Ah, no. The largest religion is Christianity with just over 33%(Again it's primary rule is to Love God first) of the worlds population, the Next being Islam with just over 21%(No golden rule unless you are of the faith) the other religions you mention make up less than 20% of the combined worlds religions.
(According to:Top Ten Organized Religions of the World — Infoplease.com)

Not sure what relevance that holds. All those religons roots are in the golden rule, so saying how many followers there are of those religions is a meaning that evades me.

This means you are attempting to take a foot note of religious philosophy and trying to stretch it to encompass all of other faiths... Not cool. This is what happens when you focus on an act, and sell your soul/integrity to obtain a goal, You trade things like integrity and honor for a now meaningless result.
This is Humanism 101, but for the rest of us. Belief is far more important than the mechanics or illusions of unity.

That "foot note" seems to be the basis of the religions I mentioned. Now, I do not agree with the saying "the ends justify the means." Remember, people in all religions have used some rather...harsh measures to get their faith spread. In doing so, they forget that Golden Rule.

Long run like eternity?

I guess you could say that. It would seem that our belief in a wrathful and vengeful deity is dying, and we are realizing that it is not religious beliefs that counts, but the love within. But that is yet another thread.

No. Because if we sell our souls to obtain your goal then we sell out our various beliefs in God to obtain a self serving objective. Religion is not about us. Faith worship Religion is supposed to be about God no matter what you believe. (That is why confusisim is not a religion)

"Sell your soul?" I did not know souls had a price! I did not know that loving others would be selling out your soul. I thought that God was love, but I could be mistaken, I suppose. And I never said it was "my" goal.

Define Love. Now who are we supposed to love? Why?

Now that is a tough thing to define, yet maybe the simplest at the same time. I would take a chance at saying that Love was compassion, mercy, forgiveness, charity, empathy, and all good things rolled into one, but that is strictly my personal guess. As for who we are suppose to love, I would venture to guess that you should love others as you love yourself. That is what that noble soul from Nazareth said. I have a feeling he was right. After all, "God" is love, and God dwells within us.

"To love someone is to see the face of God".

 

[DCJazz]

While I agree your answers for the most part, there are a few I think you have stretched a little too far.

Hmmmm...
*begins drinking coffee*

To Love others is to love "God". As Christians are fond of saying, Love is God. If I recall, that is what Jesus of Nazareth preached was the key.

*gulp, choke, splutter*
PHBHBPBHBHBPHBPHTTTTTTTTT~~~~~~
/spit take

I'm sorry but that's wrong. To love others is not to love God. To say this means that everyone is God, and that God is everyone. This is not what Christians believe, who uphold that God is 3 Persons, 1 Being; that is to say 'God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit'. We, human beings (1 Persons, 1 Being each) are his creation; we are not deities, nor would we ever be able to obtain such a goal.

As for what Christians are 'fond of saying'... I have always said "God is Love", not "Love is God". For with the first one, you say that God is a God of Love, that he loves us all to the point of death on a cross, but hates wickedness and sin. The second one you are essentially saying an emotion is a god. That Love, which all humans feel in one form or other, no matter how corrupt, is a god, and that in that sense, we all have God inside us, or that we are all God. This is inaccurate and blasphemous.

As for what Jesus preached, yes, he did teach us about love... but it was not key in and of itself. Jesus said that the only way to the Father was through him. I should think that would be far more key, seeing as how he not only knew the manner of his death, but went to it willingly in order to pay for the sins of the world, that we would have a chance of redemption through Him. Love alone will not save you, but it is because of God's Love for us (which is not only perfect, but unconditional, unlike human love) that Jesus even died for us in the first place.

I don't even need to get into the rest of your post... sigh.
I don't mean to be rude, or if I understood you correctly, but what you were trying to say here... sigh.

God is Love. And we are neither Love, nor God.

 

[HeathenWarrior]

*gulp, choke, splutter*
PHBHBPBHBHBPHBPHTTTTTTTTT~~~~~~
/spit take

Might want to watch when you take a drink if you're gonna have that reaction. And tone down to a less powerful coffee.

I'm sorry but that's wrong. To love others is not to love God. To say this means that everyone is God, and that God is everyone. This is not what Christians believe, who uphold that God is 3 Persons, 1 Being; that is to say 'God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit'. We, human beings (1 Persons, 1 Being each) are his creation; we are not deities, nor would we ever be able to obtain such a goal.

The two are one and the same. God is Love, and Love is God. And I NEVER said that humans were God. God dwells within. We have a spark of the divine within us, but no, that does not make us gods. I think you are misinterpreting what I meant.

As for what Christians are 'fond of saying'... I have always said "God is Love", not "Love is God". For with the first one, you say that God is a God of Love, that he loves us all to the point of death on a cross, but hates wickedness and sin. The second one you are essentially saying an emotion is a god. That Love, which all humans feel in one form or other, no matter how corrupt, is a god, and that in that sense, we all have God inside us, or that we are all God. This is inaccurate and blasphemous.

As I stated above, God is Love and Love is God. Love cannot be corrupt. When you see a sort of "corrupt love" it is a perversion, and not honest Love. And thinking outside the box has always been deemed "blasphemous".

As for what Jesus preached, yes, he did teach us about love... but it was not key in and of itself. Jesus said that the only way to the Father was through him. I should think that would be far more key, seeing as how he not only knew the manner of his death, but went to it willingly in order to pay for the sins of the world, that we would have a chance of redemption through Him. Love alone will not save you, but it is because of God's Love for us (which is not only perfect, but unconditional, unlike human love) that Jesus even died for us in the first place.

I am actually researching for a new thread about what Jesus meant when he said his famous "father through him" verse. There is something much deeper then that. But that is for a different thread. As well as the "redemption through him alone", as that goes against what he taught. But Love doesn't save you, no. You don't need to be saved. Love is what builds you. Unconditional love, to be exact. But that is different thread for a different day.

I don't even need to get into the rest of your post... sigh.
I don't mean to be rude, or if I understood you correctly, but what you were trying to say here... sigh.

I did not even need to get into the rest of your Bible. When I read about a "God of Love" ordering the death of thousands, and massacring whole peoples, I put the book down and sighed. See? Maybe you should have read the whole post, because you very clearly did not understand correctly.

God is Love. And we are neither Love, nor God.

Love is the very core of the human spirit. If we woke up and realized this, so much pain would stop. Sadly, that is our own ignorance causing that pain. And no, we are not "God". God is within us, and we have that shred of it within us.

 

[ebia]

Good Evening/Day to you.

There are some nagging thoughts that I have finally decided to write down and ask about. I will accept any and all answers/comments.

As my title suggests, my biggest wonder is what is the truth beneath it all? We as a people come from vastly different religious backgrounds and beliefs, and many of us have beliefs that contradict each other completely. This has resulted throughout history in some ofd the most saddest and terrible episodes of humanity. The invasion and genocide of the Canaanites, The persecution of the early Christians, the wars against the pagan peoples in all corners of the world, the crusades, the inquisition, and now the current Jihad against the West, perputated by radical Imams who are twisting their own faith for benefit.

We are essentially allowing differences in beliefs, something that in reality means very little, to make us hate and wish harm on one another. We are seeing people with different beliefs as inhuman and beneath us. You could say that religious beliefs are bringing out the worst in us all, though that is often not the case.

I am a lover of history, so I have researched and studied these atrocities with a interest, and we are also witnessing this in our current world. It truly breaks my heart to see humanity killing each other over petty things.

But as to the point of this, I have noticed a similar theme that courses through all religions. The Abrahamic faiths, Buddhism, Confucianism, Many pagan religions, Hinduism, and many others. And whenever you study these religions, there always seems to be the underlying rule. "Do to others what you would have them do to you."

My thought is that, would you say that there is a sort of primal connection between all religions, despite all the dogma, rules, and other beliefs that we heap on it? That this one rule is, in reality, the one rule to follow?

Now, personally, I think that that is the truth in it's most basic form. That whatever power forged us made within us this one simple rule, and we have heaped upon it all these extra rules such as "follow this particular religion", or "Believe in this man or burn in Hell". Why does our religious preferences mean anything in the long run? As a matter of fact, why does our belief matter at all? If we follow this one rule, would everything else not fall into place? In this life and the next?

I think so. Because in the end Love wins. It always will.

Ultimately though, Christianity is not a philosophy you can buy into or not.

It's a claim that God acted decisively in history in the death and resurrection of Jesus who is now Lord and demands everyone's allegiance. The world fundamentally changed - the old creation finished and the new began - on Easter morning or it didn't.

 

[razeontherock]

Love is the very core of the human spirit. If we woke up and realized this, so much pain would stop. Sadly, that is our own ignorance causing that pain.

Put that together with this:

"I am actually researching for a new thread about what Jesus meant when he said his famous "father through him" verse."

He is Light, actively shining on all.

 

[Living in the Light]

This is not complicated: mankind must have a change of heart to love, help, and encourage his neighbors. This all starts at home, in our neighborhoods, in our communities. Why not let it grow as the mustard seed? We have Jesus' teachings. What are we waiting for? Do a good deed today. Maybe start with someone you don't like.

 

[drich0150]

To Love others is to love "God". As Christians are fond of saying, Love is God.

Actually no we say God is love. The difference being we do not worship love. Love is an choice we reserve for God first.

If I recall, that is what Jesus of Nazareth preached was the key.

Actually no again. Christ preached we are to love our lord God with all of our Heart, Mind, Spirit and strength. this is our greatest commandment.

Buddhism, yes that is right. Hinduism, you are correct as well. As for Confucianism not being a religion, that depends on what you define as a religion. It has worship of something, thus it counts as one for me. But that is a debate for another time.

Religion is the worship of a god. Confusism says there is no God only man/society. Therefore confusism is not a religion. At best it is a form of spirituality.

I am quite aware of the means, thank you. As a History lover, I would be very much aware of them.

then you should be more responsible for the advocation of a result without a guidance.
(Your definition of love is why IU say this.) Because we are simply to "love one another" and you do not have a universally accepted form of what that love thats will ultimately mean, Then that suggests that someone somewhere will be slighted or shunned. For instance right now all religions who do not hold the "love one another" rule as their first law will be segregated and shunned.. Like Christianity and Islam.

If there is a religion like that, I have not heard of it. But you seem to have a distaste for this "one religion" if you point them out. What religion would that be?

Keep reading.

It would seem we follow these rules due to the dogma we heap upon the only rule we need. And I assure you, I am not a Humanist.

My God tells me there are two rules we all need. Not just the one.

Not sure what relevance that holds. All those religions roots are in the golden rule, so saying how many followers there are of those religions is a meaning that evades me.

No they are not.
Christianity Primary rule is to Love God above all else, In order to obtain an eternal relationship with God.

Islam's primary rule is devotion to the law of the prophet above all else, for the purpose of being rewarded greatly for their loyalty.

That "foot note" seems to be the basis of the religions I mentioned.

Exactly! you have taken a foot note of these religious expressions and have twisted it's intended purpose and it's value and made the love one another aspect of these laws it's primary calling. Which is blasphemous no matter which religion you are apart of.

Now, I do not agree with the saying "the ends justify the means." Remember, people in all religions have used some rather...harsh measures to get their faith spread. In doing so, they forget that Golden Rule.

If "these people" are operating outside of the rules of their faith, is it not fair to say they are not representing their God?

I guess you could say that. It would seem that our belief in a wrathful and vengeful deity is dying, and we are realizing that it is not religious beliefs that counts, but the love within. But that is yet another thread.

For who? Those who feel they do not need to atone for sins?

"Sell your soul?" I did not know souls had a price!

Apparently not, or perhaps you would not have sold/traded yours for the cost of your integrity. You gave away your integrity when you misrepresented the major religions of this world in an effort to unite all world religions under one rule.

I did not know that loving others would be selling out your soul.

Again that is what happens when you prize the result over the method in which you obtain those results. You may know your history but it does not seem it is stopping you from repeating it.

I thought that God was love, but I could be mistaken, I suppose. And I never said it was "my" goal.

Indeed you are. Because above all else God is righteous. In that righteousness Love can be found in the sacrifice of Christ. But for those who ignore this love, A Righteous wrath will be found. So do not fool yourself into thinking God is your idea of Love. which apparently you are not so sure of yourself:

Now that is a tough thing to define, yet maybe the simplest at the same time. I would take a chance at saying that Love was compassion, mercy, forgiveness, charity, empathy, and all good things rolled into one, but that is strictly my personal guess.

The problem with this definition all of these things can be done with out any sense of love at all. I would suggest that these noble acts you have listed can be the result of love, but not the defining characteristics.
Besides What if I do not want your, or anyone's charity or seek forgiveness from you or the fellowship of believers you come from? What if I see a need for hardship and suffering in some cases will I be forced to endure your idea of "good things?"


Perhaps that is why The Greeks divided love into These categories: agápe, éros, philía, and storgē.

agápe,Is a complete love this4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; 5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; 6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8 Love never fails.

éros, is passionate love, with sensual desire and longing.

philía,means friendship or affectionate love in modern Greek.

storgē,means "affection" in ancient and modern Greek. It is natural affection, like that felt by parents for offspring.

This is what I was asking for to define love. not for you to describe some of it's works. We need underlining principles to guide our works and efforts or our efforts no matter how noble they may start out as, will eventually fade into meaninglessness.

But you see when you take the purpose away from a command like Love one another like you love yourself, all you have left are the empty motions of what love once filled.

For instances If we are to take an all encompassing love and Give it to God then He will in turn open the flood gates of Agape love to use allowing us a greater capacity to love one another than we were capable of before.

But if you do not know God then you are forced to love through gestures and acts that may not hold any meaning from generation to generation/ culture to culture.

As for who we are suppose to love, I would venture to guess that you should love others as you love yourself. That is what that noble soul from Nazareth said. I have a feeling he was right. After all, "God" is love, and God dwells within us.

Do you have book chapter and verse for that or are you handing me your integrity yet again?
Here is a key word search to help you if you do not have a bible available to you:
BibleGateway.com: Search for a Bible word or phrase in over 35 languages and 50 versions.

"To love someone is to see the face of God".

Are you trying to say Christ said this as well?

 

[lucaspa]

We as a people come from vastly different religious backgrounds and beliefs, and many of us have beliefs that contradict each other completely. This has resulted throughout history in some ofd the most saddest and terrible episodes of humanity. The invasion and genocide of the Canaanites,

That one wasn't exactly about religious beliefs. It was a title dispute and the Israelites were expelling squatters.

We are essentially allowing differences in beliefs, something that in reality means very little, to make us hate and wish harm on one another.

I would put it differently. It could well be that those differences in beliefs mean a whole lot. However, we are not sure what the difference may mean. So the problem is that we are rejecting tolerance toward other beliefs and trying to use force to make people believe as we do.

Now, you are referring to beliefs about deity. But humans fight for other beliefs, also. I think the diffence in belief concerning the rightness of slavery meant a lot, and, while saddened that 625,000 people died so that slavery was abolished in the US, I think that fight was worth making. Do you agree or disagree?

I think the people's right of self-determination (another belief) also means a lot. So I think the war to free Kuwait from occupation meant a great deal. Agree or disagree?

We are seeing people with different beliefs as inhuman and beneath us.

It's a pretty standard tactic to dehumanize your enemy. So putting this only in the context of religious belief is invalid.

You could say that religious beliefs are bringing out the worst in us all, though that is often not the case.

You can say that about every human ideal! The belief that American democracy is good and Communism bad led to My Lai and the famous "We had to destroy the village in order to save it." Do you consider atheism a religious belief? If not, then you can't complain about religion when atheists, when presented with political power, have also shown the worst in us all.

But as to the point of this, I have noticed a similar theme that courses through all religions. The Abrahamic faiths, Buddhism, Confucianism, Many pagan religions, Hinduism, and many others. And whenever you study these religions, there always seems to be the underlying rule. "Do to others what you would have them do to you."

Does atheism have that? I've never seen it codified.

My thought is that, would you say that there is a sort of primal connection between all religions, despite all the dogma, rules, and other beliefs that we heap on it? That this one rule is, in reality, the one rule to follow?

It's a rule. I would not go so far as to say it is the rule. I submit the rule of "forgive those who trespass against us" is also a good rule to follow. So is the rule of leaving the toilet seat down if you are a man.

Now, personally, I think that that is the truth in it's most basic form. That whatever power forged us made within us this one simple rule, and we have heaped upon it all these extra rules such as "follow this particular religion", or "Believe in this man or burn in Hell". Why does our religious preferences mean anything in the long run? As a matter of fact, why does our belief matter at all? If we follow this one rule, would everything else not fall into place? In this life and the next?

It's a truth in a basic form. Is it the truth? No. You can't make that argument. There are other truths out there.

Now, the golden rule is a good guide, and I agree the world would be a better place if everyone lived by it, but there are going to be gray areas where you may have to violate it. For instance, if you see a woman being raped, what do you do? You have 2 neighbors there. If you save the woman by physically attacking the rapist (my choice), that means not showing any "love" for the rapist.

 

[lucaspa]

To Love others is to love "God". As Christians are fond of saying, Love is God. If I recall, that is what Jesus of Nazareth preached was the key.

As Drich pointed out, it is "God is love". This is not a case where you can reverse the order. For instance, you can say "dog is mammal" but you can't say "mammal is dog". Same thing applies here. An emotion -- love -- cannot be God. That would violate the 1st Commandment.

Not sure what relevance that holds. All those religons roots are in the golden rule, so saying how many followers there are of those religions is a meaning that evades me.

You have it backwards. The religions are not rooted in the golden rule, but rather the golden rule is rooted in the religions. Deity comes first, then comes the golden rule.

That so many religions have the golden rule can be used to argue, as Harvey Cox and others do, that a single deity set up all the religions.

Remember, people in all religions have used some rather...harsh measures to get their faith spread. In doing so, they forget that Golden Rule.

Let me submit that what they have done is spread their own, human power. In those cases the faith was simply a means for political and secular power. People have also misrepresented ideas that are not religious faith in an effort to gain power.

I guess you could say that. It would seem that our belief in a wrathful and vengeful deity is dying, and we are realizing that it is not religious beliefs that counts, but the love within. But that is yet another thread.

A belief in a wrathful and vengeful deity goes hand in hand with belief in a deity that is partisan for an individual tribe or nation. The deity is wrathful as it works vengeance on those outside the nation who hurt the nation the deity is protecting. As we focus on deity that is for everyone, it is difficult to have such a deity be "wrathful and vengeful", because such a deity is only hurting its own subjects.

Now that is a tough thing to define, yet maybe the simplest at the same time. I would take a chance at saying that Love was compassion, mercy, forgiveness, charity, empathy, and all good things rolled into one, but that is strictly my personal guess.

You might try 1 Corinthians 13.

As for who we are suppose to love, I would venture to guess that you should love others as you love yourself. That is what that noble soul from Nazareth said.

That was the second part of the Great Commandment. BTW, drich is quoting from Matthew that "love God" is the greatest commandment. In Mark and Luke the 2 commandments are not ranked but are equal. The same applies when they first appear in the OT.

 

[unique101]

HeathenWarrior
I can go along with your proposition of this rule
"Do to others what you would have them do to you."
If this rule was to be applied yes then the world would be a better place to live in.
But then the question remains why are there so much similarities between different religions and yet so much difference?
If we are all the same i.e mankind, in design and therefore in purpose, should we have the same manual of instruction ?

 

[HeathenWarrior]

Actually no we say God is love. The difference being we do not worship love. Love is an choice we reserve for God first.

God is Love and Love is God. They are one and the same.

Actually no again. Christ preached we are to love our lord God with all of our Heart, Mind, Spirit and strength. this is our greatest commandment.

See above.

Religion is the worship of a god. Confusism says there is no God only man/society. Therefore confusism is not a religion. At best it is a form of spirituality.

Again, we could debate that till the next year. It really just depends on how one defines a religion.

then you should be more responsible for the advocation of a result without a guidance.
(Your definition of love is why IU say this.) Because we are simply to "love one another" and you do not have a universally accepted form of what that love thats will ultimately mean, Then that suggests that someone somewhere will be slighted or shunned. For instance right now all religions who do not hold the "love one another" rule as their first law will be segregated and shunned.. Like Christianity and Islam.

So Christianity and Islam do not love one another? Funny, I have seen quite a bit of genuine love from people in both of these faiths.

My God tells me there are two rules we all need. Not just the one.

Love seems to be the basis for those "two rules".

No they are not.
Christianity Primary rule is to Love God above all else, In order to obtain an eternal relationship with God.

Islam's primary rule is devotion to the law of the prophet above all else, for the purpose of being rewarded greatly for their loyalty.

Seems eerily similar. Christians obey Jesus's laws, and Muslims Muhammad's. Both seek to be rewarded for their loyalty. Yet both hold Love as the highest principal.

Exactly! you have taken a foot note of these religious expressions and have twisted it's intended purpose and it's value and made the love one another aspect of these laws it's primary calling. Which is blasphemous no matter which religion you are apart of.

Oh, so I "twisted it's intended purpose" did I? Alright then, go ahead and explain how I did so. Apparently, thinking outside the box is a horrendously blasphemous thing to do. I thought that pointing out the unifying factor would be a very good thing. Boy, how mistaken and blasphemous I must be!

If "these people" are operating outside of the rules of their faith, is it not fair to say they are not representing their God?

Their god must be very limited if they do show love "outside" of their faith.

For who? Those who feel they do not need to atone for sins?

I stated that will be covered in a different thread I am planning. You can take your shot at it there.

Apparently not, or perhaps you would not have sold/traded yours for the cost of your integrity. You gave away your integrity when you misrepresented the major religions of this world in an effort to unite all world religions under one rule.

And here we go. You are saying I have sold my integrity in an attempt to undermine the major religions of the world. At first I thought you might be able to have an honest debate with respect, but now you are claiming that I have sold my integrity. It is my integrity that caused me to point out that unifying factor in the first place.

Again that is what happens when you prize the result over the method in which you obtain those results. You may know your history but it does not seem it is stopping you from repeating it.

Really?

Indeed you are. Because above all else God is righteous. In that righteousness Love can be found in the sacrifice of Christ. But for those who ignore this love, A Righteous wrath will be found. So do not fool yourself into thinking God is your idea of Love. which apparently you are not so sure of yourself:

Now you are trying to claim that I am forcing "God" into my particular branch of love. I am quite sure of Love. Wrath and Love cannot co-exist.

The problem with this definition all of these things can be done with out any sense of love at all. I would suggest that these noble acts you have listed can be the result of love, but not the defining characteristics.
Besides What if I do not want your, or anyone's charity or seek forgiveness from you or the fellowship of believers you come from? What if I see a need for hardship and suffering in some cases will I be forced to endure your idea of "good things?"


Perhaps that is why The Greeks divided love into These categories: agápe, éros, philía, and storgē.

agápe,Is a complete love this4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; 5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; 6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8 Love never fails.

éros, is passionate love, with sensual desire and longing.

philía,means friendship or affectionate love in modern Greek.

storgē,means "affection" in ancient and modern Greek. It is natural affection, like that felt by parents for offspring.

This is what I was asking for to define love. not for you to describe some of it's works. We need underlining principles to guide our works and efforts or our efforts no matter how noble they may start out as, will eventually fade into meaninglessness.

But you see when you take the purpose away from a command like Love one another like you love yourself, all you have left are the empty motions of what love once filled.

For instances If we are to take an all encompassing love and Give it to God then He will in turn open the flood gates of Agape love to use allowing us a greater capacity to love one another than we were capable of before.

But if you do not know God then you are forced to love through gestures and acts that may not hold any meaning from generation to generation/ culture to culture.

Love is the keystone of those feelings. Without Love, those things would be nothing. Love is the key, and it always was. As for "not knowing God", I used to be like that. I used to a fundamentalist who spat on other people. Then you could say I found "God", and realized what I have been telling you, despite my so called "Integrity".

Do you have book chapter and verse for that or are you handing me your integrity yet again?
Here is a key word search to help you if you do not have a bible available to you:

Did I just rattle you so much that you are launching personal attacks on my integrity? Is that the best you can do?

But if you HAVE to have it, I suppose I can satisfy you.

John 4:16 "God is Love. Whoever lives in Love lives in God, and God in them"

Ironically, If what you have been saying is true, then God must have "Integrity" issues.

Peter 4:8 "Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins"

Hmmm...seems like Love really is what redeems us, in the end.

Are you trying to say Christ said this as well?

I just thought that was a true statement regardless of who said it.

Now on a final note, I did not come here to pick a fight. I did not come here for personal attacks or to tell people that their beliefs are false. That would go against my creed, the Law of Love. You are obviously very devout and passionate about your beliefs, and that is a good thing, if it helps you through life. I would just rather you resisted the urge to to make claims about my "integrity" or other things.

 

[unique101]

As a Seeker of Truth I need t understand clearly what is going on. Are you suggesting that Christianity is based on the love of Jesus and Islam is based on devotion of Mohamed and Judaism is based on .............. of Moses? Can you please fill in the blanki for me? Many thanks and kind regards.

The Seeker of Truth

 

[HeathenWarrior]

There you go again. You are repeating the same thing over and over. If you wish to remain with your beliefs, do not think I'm stopping you. But making claims about how I am apparently trying to undermine the world's religions and pushing my agenda down your throat is essentially the "bearing false witness" that is suppose to be against all religions that I am at least aware of. And your stereotyping will not aid you in the long run.

You are right, Love and Pride cannot co-exist extensively. So you need to let go of that excessive pride.

 

[drich0150]

There you go again. You are repeating the same thing over and over. If you wish to remain with your beliefs, do not think I'm stopping you. But making claims about how I am apparently trying to undermine the world's religions and pushing my agenda down your throat is essentially the "bearing false witness" that is suppose to be against all religions that I am at least aware of. And your stereotyping will not aid you in the long run.

You are right, Love and Pride cannot co-exist extensively. So you need to let go of that excessive pride.

How quickly you have dropped a fact based argument for a desperate appeal to my vanity. Rather than addressing point by point where I had supposedly made false claims you choose to word an accusation according to the bible I believe in. Then as if that was not enough you appeal to my vanity concerning my personal pride.
Again no facts no cutting and pasting of evidence, just a desperate appeal in hopes that I stop holding what you have said and done to the light of truth. I'll make it easy for you if you want me to stop then simply stop trying to sell you message.

Know the offer stands if and when you will admit to what you have done here.

 

[HeathenWarrior]

How quickly you have dropped a fact based argument for a desperate appeal to my vanity. Rather than addressing point by point where I had supposedly made false claims you choose to word an accusation according to the bible I believe in. Then as if that was not enough you appeal to my vanity concerning my personal pride.
Again no facts no cutting and pasting of evidence, just a desperate appeal in hopes that I stop holding what you have said and done to the light of truth. I'll make it easy for you if you want me to stop then simply stop trying to sell you message.

Know the offer stands if and when you will admit to what you have done here.

Better yet, how about if you don't want to hear me, then why don't you stop pestering me. You claim that I "appeal to your vanity concerning my personal pride". That is exactly what you did in your last post. Pure hypocrisy. And then you make claims about my integrity, which are blatant Ad Hominem attacks, and then feign innocence in that regard. I did not bother to copy and paste facts, as you would repeat the same vague argument over and over. You have made that brutally clear.

If you don't want to have an intelligent conversation, and just launch personal attacks, then run along to somewhere else.

 

[drich0150]

Better yet, how about if you don't want to hear me, then why don't you stop pestering me. You claim that I "appeal to your vanity concerning my personal pride". That is exactly what you did in your last post. Pure hypocrisy. And then you make claims about my integrity, which are blatant Ad Hominem attacks, and then feign innocence in that regard. I did not bother to copy and paste facts, as you would repeat the same vague argument over and over. You have made that brutally clear.

If you don't want to have an intelligent conversation, and just launch personal attacks, then run along to somewhere else.

Know the offer stands if and when you will admit to what you have done here.