How many other children did Mary have?

[Thekla]

IIRC, the term in hebrew may include near relations, but the term in greek does not include it, yet folks will nevertheless interpret the words to mean the same, when they do not.

ach-hebrew
1) brother
a) brother of same parents
b) half-brother (same father)
c) relative, kinship, same tribe
d) each to the other (reciprocal relationship)
e) (fig.) of resemblance


adelphos-greek
1) a brother, whether born of the same two parents or only of the same father or mother2) having the same national ancestor, belonging to the same people, or countryman
3) any fellow or man
4) a fellow believer, united to another by the bond of affection
5) an associate in employment or office
6) brethren in Christ
a) his brothers by blood
b) all men
c) apostles
d) Christians, as those who are exalted to the same heavenly place

Who is "his" here ?
If the "his" refers to Christ, where is their concrete evidence ?

The compiler/s of the above list missed some definitions that are known from the era.

Ie. on at least one, but perhaps two points, their work is sloppy

Is this/are these author/s considered respected academic/s in the field of Greek, or Linguistics ? How can the 'well trained mind' miss both usage omissions, and also the omission of a premiss in order to get to the conclusion "his blood brothers". Worrying ... the state of education !

 

[cajunhillbilly]

Ig James and Jude were sons of Joseph but not Mary wouldn't they be brothers of Jesus? Me I am researching this more to get a proper view. But Mary have relations with Joseph does not make me see her as less Blessed.

 

[Standing Up]

Who is "his" here ?
If the "his" refers to Christ, where is their concrete evidence ?

The compiler/s of the above list missed some definitions that are known from the era.

Ie. on at least one, but perhaps two points, their work is sloppy

Is this/are these author/s considered respected academic/s in the field of Greek, or Linguistics ? How can the 'well trained mind' miss both usage omissions, and also the omission of a premiss in order to get to the conclusion "his blood brothers". Worrying ... the state of education !

Feel free to provide more than your opinion about other's work. It doesn't really help the conversation.

 

[Standing Up]

Ig James and Jude were sons of Joseph but not Mary wouldn't they be brothers of Jesus? Me I am researching this more to get a proper view. But Mary have relations with Joseph does not make me see her as less Blessed.

That is the EO view (Joseph was married before Mary and had sons from another wife and so the brothers of Jesus are step brothers). (RC believes the brothers were cousins.)

The main problem with the previous marriage and sons is the legal right to the throne of David. Typically it'd be the first born. So if Joseph had previous sons, then they are the heirs. That means Christ would not have the legal right to the throne.

So, Christ must needs be Joseph's first son by adoption. Legal heir is part of the reason Mt. and Lk. traced Christ's genealogy. This may also be why RC rejects the step-brother theory and substitutes the cousin theory.

 

[Erose]

Ig James and Jude were sons of Joseph but not Mary wouldn't they be brothers of Jesus? Me I am researching this more to get a proper view. But Mary have relations with Joseph does not make me see her as less Blessed.

According to Scripture James and Jude are the sons of Alpheus and another Mary, which is most probably Mary of Cleopas.

 

[Thekla]

Feel free to provide more than your opinion about other's work. It doesn't really help the conversation.

I have; I've discussed it before with you.

I've gone through LXX uses, usage in secular writing.

You can refer back ...

 

[Fireinfolding]

That is the EO view (Joseph was married before Mary and had sons from another wife and so the brothers of Jesus are step brothers). (RC believes the brothers were cousins.)

The main problem with the previous marriage and sons is the legal right to the throne of David. Typically it'd be the first born. So if Joseph had previous sons, then they are the heirs. That means Christ would not have the legal right to the throne.

So, Christ must needs be Joseph's first son by adoption. Legal heir is part of the reason Mt. and Lk. traced Christ's genealogy. This may also be why RC rejects the step-brother theory and substitutes the cousin theory.

Great observation

 

[Kristos]

That is the EO view (Joseph was married before Mary and had sons from another wife and so the brothers of Jesus are step brothers). (RC believes the brothers were cousins.)

The main problem with the previous marriage and sons is the legal right to the throne of David. Typically it'd be the first born. So if Joseph had previous sons, then they are the heirs. That means Christ would not have the legal right to the throne.

So, Christ must needs be Joseph's first son by adoption. Legal heir is part of the reason Mt. and Lk. traced Christ's genealogy. This may also be why RC rejects the step-brother theory and substitutes the cousin theory.

I don't think I would buy into that. Just off the top of my head, Luke goes through Nathan not Solomon, so obviously this was not his point.

 

[Standing Up]

According to Scripture James and Jude are the sons of Alpheus and another Mary, which is most probably Mary of Cleopas.

Not exactly.

There are two sets of James.

James and Judas/Lebbaeus (sons of Alphaeus)

Mt. Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James [the son] of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus;
Lk. Matthew and Thomas, James the [son] of Alphaeus, and Simon called Zelotes, And Judas [the brother] of James, and Judas Iscariot, which also was the traitor.

James, Joses, Simon, Judas (sons of Joseph)

Mt. Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?

Matthew is very careful to distinguish the names of the sons (Lebbaeus/Judas-son of Alphaeus versus Judas-son of Joseph, brother of Jesus).

PS. It may help to keep in mind that Jesus didn't call His physical brothers as apostles prior to His resurrection. Scripture says they (James, Joses, Simon, Judas) didn't believe.

Jn. 7:5 For neither did his brethren believe in him.

Very clear to what "brethren" refers to there.

 

[Standing Up]

I don't think I would buy into that. Just off the top of my head, Luke goes through Nathan not Solomon, so obviously this was not his point.

Could look at the other thread about it (haven't yet watched the video).

 

[Kristos]

Could look at the other thread about it (haven't yet watched the video).

Me neither. I generally don't watch videos...

 

[Fireinfolding]

Me neither

 

[Erose]

Not exactly.

There are two sets of James.

James and Judas/Lebbaeus (sons of Alphaeus)

Mt. Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James [the son] of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus;
Lk. Matthew and Thomas, James the [son] of Alphaeus, and Simon called Zelotes, And Judas [the brother] of James, and Judas Iscariot, which also was the traitor.

James, Joses, Simon, Judas (sons of Joseph)

Mt. Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?

Matthew is very careful to distinguish the names of the sons (Lebbaeus/Judas-son of Alphaeus versus Judas-son of Joseph, brother of Jesus).

PS. It may help to keep in mind that Jesus didn't call His physical brothers as apostles prior to His resurrection. Scripture says they (James, Joses, Simon, Judas) didn't believe.

Jn. 7:5 For neither did his brethren believe in him.

Very clear to what "brethren" refers to there.

Did you know that James the less also had another brother name Joseph?

[56] Among whom was Mary Magdalen, and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee. [Matthew 27:56]

[40] And there were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Magdalen, and Mary the mother of James the less and of Joseph, and Salome: [Mark 15:40]

[47] And Mary Magdalen, and Mary the mother of Joseph, beheld where he was laid. [Mark 15:47]

Funny how there is another Mary with children whose names are the same as Mary's other kids. Joseph, James, and Jude

 

[Standing Up]

Did you know that James the less also had another brother name Joseph?

[56] Among whom was Mary Magdalen, and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee. [Matthew 27:56]

[40] And there were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Magdalen, and Mary the mother of James the less and of Joseph, and Salome: [Mark 15:40]

[47] And Mary Magdalen, and Mary the mother of Joseph, beheld where he was laid. [Mark 15:47]

Funny how there is another Mary with children whose names are the same as Mary's other kids. Joseph, James, and Jude

James the elder-son of Zebedee, apostle (first apostle to die)
James the less-son of Alphaeus, apostle
James the just-son of Joseph, first bishop of Jerusalem (ran the Acts 15 council)

Judas/Lebbaeus brother of James the less- (if you compare a list of apostles, you'll find this so).
Judas brother of James the just.

 

[katherine2001]

ah...yeah this has been kicked around about a million times .... brother Erose

And, of course, Philothei, some people know much better than you do (a native Greek) what the Greek terms translated into English really mean much better than you would.

 

[Standing Up]

*coughing* Joseph kids? Maybe "brothers" as cousins? or maybe kinsmen growing up in the same family? Take your pick Standing Up. Unless it means blood brothers and sisters you have proved nothing.

NO ECFs disagreed...They just did not mention it ... You disagree and it is ok you can as you do not have the fuller picture of what the gospel says. In Scripture there is NOwhere that is says that Mary was NOT EVER VIRGIN so you have no case.

Really?

 

[Montalban]

StandingUp gives the meanings of a word, and highlights only one of these in red, but doesn't say why this particular one is to be used in preference to the other definitions.

Simply highlighting one of many doesn't make the highlighted on THE definition being used

 

[Thekla]

And, of course, Philothei, some people know much better than you do (a native Greek) what the Greek terms translated into English really mean much better than you would.

(... and she teaches Biblical Greek, too ...)

 

[Montalban]

Me neither. I generally don't watch videos...

They're often nothing like the book

 

[Montalban]

(... and she teaches Biblical Greek, too ...)

I don't get it when people evidence against their own stance.

StandingUp thoughtfully provides ALL the definitions he can find for a term, however for some reason it's only the first one he highlights. We're to somehow ignore all the other possible definitions HE provided for some as yet unknown reason.