There is no OSAS

[squint]

A persons motivation doesn't matter and we shouldn't speculate. The scripture is all that matters.

Scripture says the Word reflects the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

I was observing the openly reflected statements from the non-OSAS camp, as that is what they reflect from their hearts.

Others can pick up the same Word and not find that same reflection.

The differences therefore are in the reflectors, not the Word.

s

 

[sculleywr]

What scripture can prove that God didn't know before hand that Judas would betray Jesus?

None. But none can say that judas was never a follower of Christ. He lived with, served with, and did miracles with and through Christ's power. The bible is clear that the devil did not enter Judas until the sop was handed to him. (John 13)
This is a a man who did miracles, and since Satan was not in him until John 13:27, there is only one source of the power behind them.

 

[truthHurts77]

Couple of questions:

What does your group propose the solution is, once someone who was saved is no longer saved? They confessed Christ, committed a mortal sin, now what should they do? What is a valid group with which they should do it?

Confession to a priest?
Get born again?
Take Mass?
Make a donation?
Confess Christ?

yoiu have to come back to Christ and pray and do whaatever it takes to get back the grace you lost from mortal sin

all those things you mention help immensely

and i would add this: spend time with Jesus in the Real PResence (of His) found onlly in the CatholicChurches

 

[Whisper of Hope]

Couple of questions:

What does your group propose the solution is, once someone who was saved is no longer saved? They confessed Christ, committed a mortal sin, now what should they do? What is a valid group with which they should do it?

Confession to a priest?
Get born again?
Take Mass?
Make a donation?
Confess Christ?

Those are very good questions you asked. I have wondered just how many times it would take for God to forsake us. I haven't seen anyone here who opposes what we believe give any indication about that yet, have you? Do you have any idea at all? What do you think? How would we know? Are there are any Scriptures on the exact number that I might have missed, by chance?

 

[sculleywr]

Those are very good questions you asked. I have wondered just how many times it would take for God to forsake us. I haven't seen anyone here who opposes what we believe give any indication about that at all, have you? Do you have any idea at all? Is three strikes and we're out? What do you think? How would we know? Are there are any Scriptures on the exact number that I might have missed?

I would say that it wouldnt be a specific sin or number of sins. I would say, and I believe the church fathers would say, that the person who serves God at one point in life can at another point say "I don't want to serve God any longer, and I don't want His salvation." at this point, the person can give up their salvation voluntarily.

I think for a specific verse, he who denies Christ before men will be denied before the Father. To leave salvation behind, you deny Christ before men. There is where you give up salvation.

 

[B-74]

None. But none can say that judas was never a follower of Christ. He lived with, served with, and did miracles with and through Christ's power. The bible is clear that the devil did not enter Judas until the sop was handed to him. (John 13)
This is a a man who did miracles, and since Satan was not in him until John 13:27, there is only one source of the power behind them.

Who did miracles? Judas was among them when none of them could do miracles. They didn't even fully understand what Jesus was teaching them yet.

 

[Whisper of Hope]

Scripture says the Word reflects the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

I was observing the openly reflected statements from the non-OSAS camp, as that is what they reflect from their hearts.

Others can pick up the same Word and not find that same reflection.

The differences therefore are in the reflectors, not the Word.

s

Jesus did say that from the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks (Matthew 12:36; Luke 6:45) and from the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies (Matthew 15:19; Mark 7:21-23).

 

[sculleywr]

Who did miracles? Judas was among them when none of them could do miracles. They didn't even fully understand what Jesus was teaching them yet.

Luke 10. Christ sent them all out to do miracles in His name.

 

[JesusFreak78]

this is a lot of made up human theology.

if someone hates God and goes against his ways

he will end up in Hell &that is all there is 2 it

If you are gonna accuse someone of made up human theology, prove it from scriptures (the bible).

it is because he himself does not want God, not that God doesn't want him. God wants ALL his children, but they dont all want him

We can see from John 12:12, John 3:18 and Romans 9:14-24 that God does choose people.

so anyway ppl at those sites ... well, there is this one story about a man who accepted Christ... became a preacher. But the love of $$ made him begin to speak things that were against Christ and the Word... He knew he was teaching falsehood but didn't care because he wanted ppl to come to his "church" Maybe most ppl wont go to a church that teaches hell fire & brimstone...

In any case, he was in HELL being tormented by the demons - and in fact his sufferings were a lot worse than others who ended up there, others who had blashphemed like he did

I don't know if this story is true or not, but if it is, he was never a Christian to begin with.

1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.

 

[Standing Up]

Those are very good questions you asked. I have wondered just how many times it would take for God to forsake us. I haven't seen anyone here who opposes what we believe give any indication about that yet, have you? Do you have any idea at all? What do you think? How would we know? Are there are any Scriptures on the exact number that I might have missed, by chance?

Well, I know what I think, but not sure what they think about it.

Believe one fallout is their splitting sin into venial or mortal. And recovery depends on which (I guess).

 

[Standing Up]

This assumes that there is never reconciliation. I'll leave he exacts about reconciliation in orthodoxy to my orthodox friends, but when excommunicated in the orthodox church, one can always return to the communion of the church through confession, repentance, and humility.

Suspect excommunication is about dogma/belief, but falling away into "no longer saved" is about behaviour (I'd guess). Not sure.

 

[Standing Up]

yoiu have to come back to Christ and pray and do whaatever it takes to get back the grace you lost from mortal sin

all those things you mention help immensely

and i would add this: spend time with Jesus in the Real PResence (of His) found onlly in the CatholicChurches

That'd be the Mass solution, right?

IOW, if you as a Christian, die again, then to be reborn again, you need to attend Mass.

So, is there a sense that what a group teaches, she also provides the solution to what she teaches? IOW, RC and others teach that a Christian may die, but to get reborn again, just attend our Mass.

Do I have that right?

 

[Partaker of Christ]

you ppl who t hink u can't lose salvation??

Read St Mt 18:23



​

I have read it thanks!

[FONT=&quot]Did you have a point to make about the passage?[/FONT]

 

[B-74]

Luke 10. Christ sent them all out to do miracles in His name.

Thank you.

 

[Rick Otto]

Well, I know what I think, but not sure what they think about it.

Believe one fallout is their splitting sin into venial or mortal. And recovery depends on which (I guess).

That's a more worthy effort than just capitalizing the first letter:
Sin & sin, Tradition & tradition.

 

[Partaker of Christ]

I would say that it wouldnt be a specific sin or number of sins. I would say, and I believe the church fathers would say, that the person who serves God at one point in life can at another point say "I don't want to serve God any longer, and I don't want His salvation." at this point, the person can give up their salvation voluntarily.

I think for a specific verse, he who denies Christ before men will be denied before the Father. To leave salvation behind, you deny Christ before men. There is where you give up salvation.

sculleywr: Dear God, you know that great price that you paid when you bought me?



God: Oh yes, you mean my Only Begotten Son!



sculleywr: Well I want my body and spirit back!

God: Well ok, so what you got to purchase it back with?



sculleywr:

 

[sculleywr]

Suspect excommunication is about dogma/belief, but falling away into "no longer saved" is about behaviour (I'd guess). Not sure.

Well, explanations that I have heard is that both are an excommunication.

I. First is the standard excommunication of the heretic. This is in response to specific heresies. People are only heretics if they teach something they know to be false. A person making a mistake is not a heretic, simply a misguided leader. We are all human so we all wind up teaching something false because of the corruption of our passions. The heretic is one who knows what is truth and teaches the lie despite that knowledge.
II. The second is self-excommunication. This is where the person does one of a few things. First, he could, realizing the sinfulness of his life, instead of confessing and repenting, he falls into despondency and defeat, and then falls away from the church in fear of the high calling of God. Secondly, he could come to hate God because of something happening in his life. There are other reasons that would cause this result. However, the end is the same. The person excommunicates himself from the church.

In both cases, the answer is the same. Reconciliation exists for both the heretic and the self-ex-communicant. He returns to the Church through confession and repentance, and through the continued act of salvation, is brought back into the process of salvation and the victory of Christ's resurrection, through the sufferings of the cross.

 

[sculleywr]

sculleywr: Dear God, you know that great price that you paid when you bought me?



God: Oh yes, you mean my Only Begotten Son!



sculleywr: Well I want my body and spirit back!

God: Well ok, so what you got to purchase it back with?


So basically, God would force me against my will to stay?

Again,
sculleywr:

So basically, God would force me to be in heaven against my will.


What kind of God is that?

 

[B-74]

Well, explanations that I have heard is that both are an excommunication.

I. First is the standard excommunication of the heretic. This is in response to specific heresies. People are only heretics if they teach something they know to be false. A person making a mistake is not a heretic, simply a misguided leader. We are all human so we all wind up teaching something false because of the corruption of our passions. The heretic is one who knows what is truth and teaches the lie despite that knowledge.

I think as we abide in Christ through fellowship, using scripture we teach each other, like a moment ago you taught me something, i am now more enlightened than i was before.

I have noticed this a lot. The holy spirit uses us all to edify each other.

 

[jpcedotal]

I think as we abide in Christ through fellowship, using scripture we teach each other, like a moment ago you taught me something, i am now more enlightened than i was before.

I have noticed this a lot. The holy spirit uses us all to edify each other.

kind of makes me want to see what a generic Christian from a theology stand point would be like....oh wait, Jesus would be that, right?