How many other children did Mary have?

[Kristos]

Here is the problem with your argument.

1. Joseph and Mary were married. They were betrothed prior to the announcement and Joseph's dream but where married during Mary's pregnancy with Jesus. The angel of the Lord commanded Joseph to take Mary as his wife.

Matt. 1:24-25
24 And Joseph [z]awoke from his sleep and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took Mary as his wife, 25 [aa]but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.

There are three important words to consider in these verses. The first is that the angel commanded, προσέταξεν (commanded) rendered in the aorist indicative which reflects a performed action. The angel had commended Joseph in his dream to marry Mary. The command was direct and offered no options to not marry Mary. Second, Joseph took Mary as his wife, παρέλαβεν (took) rendered also in the aorist indicative. Joseph took, performed the action. Joseph did not wait to take the action but took the action. The aorist indicative reflects a completed action. Third, Joseph took Mary as his wife, γυναῖκα (wife). Joseph completed the betrothal period. Mary is no longer betrothed but married to Joseph. Jesus had not been born yet.

2. God instituted marriage. His will regarding marriage is explicit. The man and the woman were to become one in flesh and it is not good for a man to be alone (Gen. 2). The woman is to procreate (Gen. 1 and 9). Children (not just a child) are a heritage of the Lord, the fruit of the womb is a reward and blessed is the man who's quiver is full of them (Psalms 127:3-5). Malachi in chapter 4 while discussing divorce explains that God seeks godly offspring (Mal. 4:15).

3. The NT brought an expanded view of marriage based on Jesus teachings. There are a multitude of verses explaining marriage and the role of both husband and wife. Romans 7 explains the marital duties of a married couple. It teaches when and for what reason should a woman (or a man) keep his body from his wife (and the reverse). 1 Cor. 7 teaches us that our bodies are not our own but belong to our wife or husband. Hebrews 13 teaches that marriage is honorable among all and that the marital bed remains undefiled.

4. There is no biblical reason for Mary to remain a virgin and deny herself to Joseph. In fact, it is both against God's will and mind AND the teachings of Christ for her to remain a virgin. There is no biblical reason for Mary to not have other children. She, of all people, was in an ideal position to give God godly children. Joseph, of all people, would have been blessed to have a quiver full of children as the psalmist so eloquently puts it.


5. There is no biblical evidence that Mary was a first born or that Anna was a prophetess. The events that the proto depict would have happened well over 150 years prior to the writing of the book and its claims remain uncorroborated by anyone prior to its writing. It is a stretch to include the proto's claims as a certainty.

1-4: so you are saying that Joseph literally took Mary as his wife before Jesus was born? So Mary was not a virgin until Jesus was born...? Otherwise you seem to only be reinforcing my point...

5: I have no idea what you are talking about. I didn't say Mary was first born - I said she had THE first born (aka Jesus) and Luke specifically calls Anna a prophetess...

 

[Hentenza]

1-4: so you are saying that Joseph literally took Mary as his wife before Jesus was born? So Mary was not a virgin until Jesus was born...? Otherwise you seem to only be reinforcing my point...

Joseph did literally take Mary as his wife prior to Jesus birth but obeyed the angel and kept her a virgin until after Jesus birth. The command of the angel to Joseph required Joseph to keep her a virgin until the birth of Jesus. This part of the command expired at Jesus birth freeing Joseph of his obligation.

5: I have no idea what you are talking about. I didn't say Mary was first born - I said she had THE first born (aka Jesus) and Luke specifically calls Anna a prophetess...

My apologies. I misread your post regarding Anna. The same name is assigned by the protoevangelium to Mary's mother.

 

[razeontherock]

hence the genealogy of Jesus goes through Joseph - not Mary.

Matthew's genealogy goes through Joseph. The other one (Luke?) is vastly different. I'm told it is actually Mary's genealogy. Anybody know how this works?

Wouldn't having more children be a sign of unbelief? Essentially going backward?

I don't see how. I think it would be a sign of .. 2 people being married. Can you explain your thinking here?

 

[razeontherock]

I was lookng at this, if anyone can add to it that would be great

Exodus 22:29 Thou shalt not delay to offer the first of thy ripe fruits, and of thy liquors:

All I can add is the last time I read this, I didn't realize they had moonshiners back then! You know any moonshiners down there? Bet you do

It's wonderful to see how Jesus fulfilled the law, and that's what you're looking at ...

 

[Fireinfolding]

All I can add is the last time I read this, I didn't realize they had moonshiners back then! You know any moonshiners down there? Bet you do

It's wonderful to see how Jesus fulfilled the law, and that's what you're looking at ...

Moonshiners I so missed that, good eye bro lol

 

[Incariol]

Is it possible for the Greek word used for "brother" [in the scriptures quoted throughout this thread] to mean brothers from the same mother? Yes or no. I don't want an explanation. I think we've had enough of it.

How dare Montalban give a nuanced, educated answer to a question?

 

[Standing Up]

How dare Montalban give a nuanced, educated answer to a question?

Where?

 

[HeavensWorship]

How dare Montalban give a nuanced, educated answer to a question?

Its a simple question. A yes or no answer is all that's needed. Montalban was asked a simple question from another member. A simple yes or no answer is all that is needed. But the only answer we get is not an answer, rather a dance - beating around the bush.
Jesus said let your yes be yes and your no be no.

You don't need a Masters degree for this one - believe me! Its simple.

 

[Montalban]

Joseph did literally take Mary as his wife prior to Jesus birth but obeyed the angel and kept her a virgin until after Jesus birth.

Why, if it was a 'normal' marriage?

 

[Montalban]

Its a simple question. A yes or no answer is all that's needed. Montalban was asked a simple question from another member. A simple yes or no answer is all that is needed. But the only answer we get is not an answer, rather a dance - beating around the bush.
Jesus said let your yes be yes and your no be no.

You don't need a Masters degree for this one - believe me! Its simple.

I answered it

I answered 'yes' here, and Here and referred to other times I've answered it here - which links to other threads I've answered the question.

I am happy to keep answering over and over again to you and others asking over and over again.

I direct this also to others (viz. Standing Up) who have also been on the same threads where I've answered over and over again. On and on, so to speak.

Fireinfolding at least seems to recognise I've answered

Hentenza sort of does here

 

[Hentenza]

Why, if it was a 'normal' marriage?

Because Joseph obeyed the angel. The marriage was normal once Joseph was relieved of his obligation.

 

[Montalban]

Because Joseph obeyed the angel. The marriage was normal once Joseph was relieved of his obligation.

Joseph's obligation lasted his whole life, as husband to Mary, and father to Jesus

 

[HeavensWorship]

I answered it

I answered 'yes'
I am happy to keep answering over and over again to you and others asking over and over again.

I direct this also to others (viz. Standing Up) who have also been on the same threads where I've answered over and over again. On and on, so to speak.

Fireinfolding at least seems to recognise I've answered

Hentenza sort of does

Sorry

 

[Standing Up]

I answered it

I answered 'yes' here, and Here and referred to other times I've answered it here - which links to other threads I've answered the question.

I am happy to keep answering over and over again to you and others asking over and over again.

I direct this also to others (viz. Standing Up) who have also been on the same threads where I've answered over and over again. On and on, so to speak.

Fireinfolding at least seems to recognise I've answered

Hentenza sort of does here

So, you agree it can mean blood brother. You've already said that.

 

[Montalban]

Sorry

No problem.

I am however awaiting evidence from the bible where someone said that they had scriptural evidence that this was bad doctrine.

 

[Erose]

Because Joseph obeyed the angel. The marriage was normal once Joseph was relieved of his obligation.

Where is that in the Bible?

 

[Erose]

I'm posting here what I posted on the other thread on this subject. It is claimed not just by us Sacred Tradition folks but also by the Sola Scriptura crowd that Jesus Christ remained ever-virgin. Never got married, etc.

My question is this for the Sola Scriptura crowd, where does the Bible teach this? Can you prove from Scripture alone that Jesus remained ever-virgin? If you cannot then where do you get this belief from?

 

[Hentenza]

Where is that in the Bible?

I've already covered the verses including the grammar. You are yet to address those. Ignoring them will not make the verses go away.

 

[Hentenza]

I'm posting here what I posted on the other thread on this subject. It is claimed not just by us Sacred Tradition folks but also by the Sola Scriptura crowd that Jesus Christ remained ever-virgin. Never got married, etc.

My question is this for the Sola Scriptura crowd, where does the Bible teach this? Can you prove from Scripture alone that Jesus remained ever-virgin? If you cannot then where do you get this belief from?

See my post 34 in the other thread.

 

[Erose]

So, you agree it can mean blood brother. You've already said that.

Can we also agree that the usage was not exclusive to a sibling as well?