Miracle of Fatima

[Albion]

Jesus said the line about "suffer the little children" not Mary, atleast I am mostly sure
God uses the weak and humble of this world to shame the strong and mighty

and what you said about new revelation is 100% correct! the Gospel is the Good News, the Bible is the divine revelation for the general population, so a person might get a message from God about what might happen to them, but for the history of salvation, we have that all in the Bible, not sure if I am making sense, like we might get more individual information from God but there should be no new teachings
this is why the Catholic Church says that most visions are not true, if the vision has any new teachings then we know it is not from God
at Fatima the Vision (who i believe to be the Blessed Virgin Mary) did not preach anything new, it was a call back to holiness, asking for more prayer and devotion, not new teachings

Rhamiel, we all know that there have been many apparitions throughout history that were bogus and the church rejected them. Since you seem to know about this, are there any that DID come forth with new prophesies or revelations that were so unorthodox that the Vatican rejected them out of hand for the reason you mentioned? I'm serious. IF you know about any of them--and you may not, I understand-- it would illustrate your point very effectively.

 

[Erose]

I have seen no discussion of any theology advanced at Fatima. Therefore, I conclude it didn't advance any theology. Is there a consensus of opinion on this?

Yes there was no new theology proposed by the vision of Fatima. The only things confirmed there would be the existence of hell, that we should pray for the salvation of our neighbors and that we should start living our faith so we don't end up there. But according to some this is the teaching of the devil.

 

[razeontherock]

Yes there was no new theology proposed by the vision of Fatima. The only things confirmed there would be the existence of hell, that we should pray for the salvation of our neighbors and that we should start living our faith so we don't end up there. But according to some this is the teaching of the devil.

Time for a "why can't we all just get along?"

 

[Albion]

the prayer the vision told the children to pray was
"O My Jesus, Forgive Us Our Sins, Lead All Souls Into Heaven, Especially Those Of Us In Most Need Of Thy Mercy"

How can that be considered orthodox?

 

[Jonathan95]

That Mary is next only to her son, intercedes for us, and so on ... generally a very high place is given to Mary, which Protestants disagree with.

But according to the book 'Heaven is for real by Todd Burpo & Lynn Vincent' Archangel Gabriel is on the left side.

Actually more likely, since I find no scriptural basis that Mary is next to Jesus Christ, or God.

Luke 1:19
And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.
Luke 1:18-20 (in Context) Luke 1 (Whole Chapter)

Luke 22:69
King James Version (KJV)
69Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God.

 

[Erose]

Rhamiel, we all know that there have been many apparitions throughout history that were bogus and the church rejected them. Since you seem to know about this, are there any that DID come forth with new prophesies or revelations that were so unorthodox that the Vatican rejected them out of hand for the reason you mentioned? I'm serious. IF you know about any of them--and you may not, I understand-- it would illustrate your point very effectively.

Albion here are some recent rejections of some alleged apparitions:

Here is a list of nearly 30 alleged apparitions that have been rejected or validated in the US alone:

Marian Apparitions - In United States

Here is another rejected: Unreal apparitions of Mary in Centeno Argentina | CatholicFavors News

And another: BBC NEWS | Europe | Bishop rejects shrine apparition

Here is a news message about the pope in relation to false apparitions:

Benedict XVI to crack down on

 

[Erose]

Time for a "why can't we all just get along?"

Raze to be honest here on the subject you proposed. One of the many measuring sticks used when it comes to the validity of Apparitions is are they orthodox or not? If an alleged apparition proposes a new doctrine or a change in a doctrine it is rejected outright. As St. Paul taught us :if an angel in heaven tries to teach you counter to what we teach he should be rejected. Revelation ended with Christ. There is going to be no new revelations until the end of the world.

 

[razeontherock]

Right! and yet, we can each be slow in getting the point. So our Lord can give us revelations that make the Good News relevant to us ...

It would seem that happened at Fatima. In a BIG way!

 

[Albion]

Albion here are some recent rejections of some alleged apparitions:

Here is a list of nearly 30 alleged apparitions that have been rejected or validated in the US alone:

Marian Apparitions - In United States

Here is another rejected: Unreal apparitions of Mary in Centeno Argentina | CatholicFavors News

And another: BBC NEWS | Europe | Bishop rejects shrine apparition

Here is a news message about the pope in relation to false apparitions:

Benedict XVI to crack down on

Thanks. Gotta admit, it's a fascinating subject, regardless of which side one comes down vis-a-vis the authenticity of any of these events.

 

[Erose]

the prayer the vision told the children to pray was
"O My Jesus, Forgive Us Our Sins, Lead All Souls Into Heaven, Especially Those Of Us In Most Need Of Thy Mercy"

How can that be considered orthodox?

So Albion we are not suppose to pray for the salvation of others?

St Paul says: [1] I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men: [2] For kings, and for all that are in high station: that we may lead a quiet and a peaceable life in all piety and chastity. [3] For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, [4] Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

 

[Erose]

Thanks. Gotta admit, it's a fascinating subject, regardless of which side one comes down vis-a-vis the authenticity of any of these events.

I agree with you Albion. I think I am going to spend a little bit more time researching this subject when I get time. To be honest I haven't done a great deal of looking into these apparitions for I guess other things have been more important for me to learn. So I have have done up to this point is go a cursory investigation. But latter on that may change.


The Benedict crackdown article is very fascinating, for in my opinion it shows how serious they are taken by the Catholic Church.

 

[Erose]

Right! and yet, we can each be slow in getting the point. So our Lord can give us revelations that make the Good News relevant to us ...

It would seem that happened at Fatima. In a BIG way!

Raze thanks for saying that. You have been able to sum up my point of view on this subject in a much better way than I have been able to do so far.

 

[Albion]

So Albion we are not suppose to pray for the salvation of others?

That isn't the point. If you look at the part I put in another color and bolded, thinking that this would call your attention to the point, you will see that it is praying SO THAT ALL SOULS WILL MAKE IT TO HEAVEN.

Nowhere in Catholic theology is there a belief that all souls will eventually be saved. That ideas is, as a matter of fact, considered to be a heresy.

 

[Erose]

That isn't the point. If you look at the part I put in another color and bolded, thinking that this would call your attention to the point, you will see that it is praying SO THAT ALL SOULS WILL MAKE IT TO HEAVEN.

Nowhere in Catholic theology is there a belief that all souls will eventually be saved. That ideas is, as a matter of fact, considered to be a heresy.

You are correct that Catholic theology realizes that not all will make it to heaven and there will be many in hell. The point you are not seeing here is that in this prayer we are aligning our will with God's Will. God wills all to be saved as it says in the passage I quoted. So if God wills all to to be saved, who are we not to do the same?

 

[Albion]

You are correct that Catholic theology realizes that not all will make it to heaven and there will be many in hell. The point you are not seeing here is that in this prayer we are aligning our will with God's Will. God wills all to be saved as it says in the passage I quoted. So if God wills all to to be saved, who are we not to do the same?

But the prayer is not about God wanting all to be saved; it is saying that, with prayer, God's plan of salvation may be changed. If we pray that his will be done or that He look favorably upon this or that person or the whole human race, that's not a heresy, but this prayer clearly states that, with prayer, Jesus might lead everyone into Heaven. We know that that isn't going to happen.

This is why the prayer, the whole message, is suspect.

 

[razeontherock]

That interpretation makes no sense. If it were intending to say that, why would it also include info re: hell?

 

[Erose]

But the prayer is not about God wanting all to be saved; it is saying that, with prayer, God's plan of salvation may be changed. If we pray that his will be done or that He look favorably upon this or that person or the whole human race, that's not a heresy, but this prayer clearly states that, with prayer, Jesus might lead everyone into Heaven. We know that that isn't going to happen.

This is why the prayer, the whole message, is suspect.

Does not God will all to be saved? Doesn't Scripture not teach this Albion? Even though God wills all to be saved not everyone is are they? This prayer is the same thing. When I pray this prayer, which I do every morning when I pray the Rosary with my son, I am aligning my will with God's will. I will that all sinners should be saved. I want all sinners to be saved, including myself. I pray for the salvation of my family and friends and strangers I meet as well as those such as yourself I meet on this forum. I do this knowing that not all those that I pray for is going to be saved. But my God wills them to be saved and so do I.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Which Biblical quote are you referring to? Who fixed the mess up about circumcision where there was much confusion going on? Individuals relying upon themselves to interpret correctly or was this done at the first council of Jerusalem?

Well, we do know it wasn't done by either Mary or Peter, your first Pope. It was a council in Jerusalem which was led by James.

 

[Albion]

That interpretation makes no sense. If it were intending to say that, why would it also include info re: hell?

I don't know, but the prayer is what it is.

 

[Rhamiel]

the prayer the vision told the children to pray was
"O My Jesus, Forgive Us Our Sins, Lead All Souls Into Heaven, Especially Those Of Us In Most Need Of Thy Mercy"

How can that be considered orthodox?

the Catholic Church does not teach universalism, I believe you are taking this out of context, we pray that God will save all mankind, but we also know that some people will reject Him and will be damned to Hell, the children were showen a vision of hell so this vision
1 timothey 2:4 says that God desires that all men be saved
this is the same sentiment, we know that not everyone will be saved but we still pray for it