Miracle of Fatima

[Publius]

No what I am recommending to you is to do a little research on the subject before going off half-cocked. Nothing wrong with giving advice.

So, if you were to ask me a question and I refused to answer you and, instead, just told you to go "do research", would that be an indication that I was able to explain my beliefs? Would that be a polite way for me to respond to you?

Actually it has been defended a great deal on this thread. But like every thing else when it comes to God and His works you can believe them or not. That is that free will God gave us.

That's odd, because I had to ask the question three times before anyone even responded to it and, even then, nobody actually answered the question.

The fruits are the conversions and the refocusing of people upon the divine in a world at the time was proclaiming that God is dead.

Oh, I see. So, "focusing the world on the divine" is a positve fruit that demonstrates something is from God?

It is a warning to all of us that hell is real and don't forget that. It is also makes the point that there are consequences for our sins and she does it in a very similar way as the OT prophets did. She also tells us we need to fly away from sin back to God before we reap those consequences.

Does she know that we are spiritually dead and incapable of "flying away from sin and back to God"? Where did she get the idea of "flying back to God"? When were we God's in the first place? Doesn't the Bible say that we are sinful from birth?

Now you can debate whether or not those children seen anyway and that all of the things seen during this time from the dancing sun and the burning horizon where just mass hallucinations or some form of natural event that we don't understand, but saying it was a deceiving spirit is really plumb ludicrous.

Why?

Satan is not going to tell anyone to flee sin or to pray for sinners or to turn to God or to meditate upon the life of Jesus.

How do you know? Why wouldn't he? What better way to deceive people than to convince them that you were sent by God? What better way to deceive them than to get them to focus on religious works?

That as Jesus says produces a house divided and Satan is way too smart for that.

How do you know? How do you know it produces a house divided?

Just curious in what way is that prayer counter to the Gospel?

Why would "Mary" pray to God to lead all souls into Heaven, when God has already says that only a few will be saved?

You don't think so.

No, I don't. If it was, the Mormons and New Agers would be Christians.

Read the OT and the prophecies there. When does God send prophets? Is it when everything is going the way God wants it to or is it when Isreal is loosing or lost its faith?

Where does the Bible ever say that God sent prophets because Israel is "losing faith"?

This was a message to Christians who have lost their way primarily. Like I said you had a continent that was loosing their faith.

And how does that justify the fact that what the alleged "Mary" said is not consistent with scripture?

As Christ said they that are with us are not against us.

That doesn't explain why you believe its "ludicrous".

So Satan is going to deceive people to make them return to God and to doing the will of God. I just don't see Satan doing this.

How are these things consistent with the "will of God"? How do the spiritually dead "return to God"? And when were the unregenerate with God in the first place when the Bible says that we are sinful from birth?

Because Scripture says so.

What verse?

It is God's will that all will be saved.

Then how do you explain the fact that God chooses not to save most people?

 

[Whisper of Hope]

I don't believe the message of the Miracle of Fatima is from God.

However, I'm having a difficult time putting my thoughts into words. So, I researched it and I found an article that effectively and thoroughly explains why I don't believe it is from God much better than I ever could. It's a very thorough article.

Here's an excerpt from: "Scripture declares that Satan and his demons masquerade as angels of light (2 Corinthians 11:14-15). Satanic deception is just as possible an explanation for the apparitions. The only way to determine whether an apparition is a "lying wonder" or a genuine message from God is to compare the message of the apparition with Scripture. If the teachings that are attached to these apparitions are contrary to the Word of God, the apparitions themselves are then satanic in nature. A study of the teachings of Our Lady Fatima with the "Miracle of the Sun" is a good example."

Are apparitions of Mary, such as Lady Fatima, true messages from God?

 

[Albion]

This thread would probably be more meaningful and interesting if we took account of ALL the alleged Marian apparitions of history and asked what good they did and why they'd be considered real.

 

[Erose]

Oh, I see. So, "focusing the world on the divine" is a positve fruit that demonstrates something is from God?

You don't think so. In a world that was loosing its faith in God and that was tied up on World War I, you don't think that some hope was called for? Read the OT and the prophecies there. When does God send prophets? Is it when everything is going the way God wants it to or is it when Isreal is loosing or lost its faith?

Does she know that we are spiritually dead and incapable of "flying away from sin and back to God"? Where did she get the idea of "flying back to God"? When were we God's in the first place? Doesn't the Bible say that we are sinful from birth?

This was a message to Christians who have lost their way primarily. Like I said you had a continent that was loosing their faith.

Why?

As Christ said they that are with us are not against us.

How do you know? Why wouldn't he? What better way to deceive people than to convince them that you were sent by God? What better way to deceive them than to get them to focus on religious works?

So Satan is going to deceive people to make them return to God and to doing the will of God. I just don't see Satan doing this.

How do you know? How do you know it produces a house divided?

Because Scripture says so.

Why would "Mary" pray to God to lead all souls into Heaven, when God has already says that only a few will be saved?

It is God's will that all will be saved. It is our calling to be used as instuments of God to save as many as we can. We are called by charity to pray for sinners and their conversion.

 

[Erose]

I don't believe the message of the Miracle of Fatima is from God.

However, I'm having a difficult time putting my thoughts into words. So, I researched it and I found an article that effectively and thoroughly explains why I don't believe it is from God much better than I ever could. It's a very thorough article.

Here's an excerpt from: "Scripture declares that Satan and his demons masquerade as angels of light (2 Corinthians 11:14-15). Satanic deception is just as possible an explanation for the apparitions. The only way to determine whether an apparition is a "lying wonder" or a genuine message from God is to compare the message of the apparition with Scripture. If the teachings that are attached to these apparitions are contrary to the Word of God, the apparitions themselves are then satanic in nature. A study of the teachings of Our Lady Fatima with the "Miracle of the Sun" is a good example."

Are apparitions of Mary, such as Lady Fatima, true messages from God?

Look I get why you don't want to believe in them. I get it. Because if you even allowed yourself to look at it being possible the next question you would have to ask is why is God sending His Angels, Mary and His Saints to visit the Catholics and not my church? So you have to take to stance that if it isn't happening in my church it can't be happening in somebody else's church.

 

[Albion]

You don't think so. In a world that was loosing its faith in God and that was tied up on World War I, you don't think that some hope was called for?

If that's what this is supposed to have been all about, the world went on losing more of its faith during the 1920s and war barely took a 'time out.'

When does God send prophets? Is it when everything is going the way God wants it to or is it when Isreal is loosing or lost its faith?

This wasn't a case of a prophet being sent.

It is God's will that all will be saved.

But here the woman in the vision was supposed to say that all COULD be saved, which no part of even RC theology says is possible.

It is certainly true that the words that were reportedly spoken are not consistent with standard Christian thinking, all denominational differenses aside.

 

[Albion]

Look I get why you don't want to believe in them. I get it. Because if you even allowed yourself to look at it being possible the next question you would have to ask is why is God sending His Angels, Mary and His Saints to visit the Catholics and not my church?

Don't indulge in fantasy like that, at least not in public. Why we don't believe in "them" is because there is no reason to believe in them. None of the Catholics here can even give a genuine reason why they themselves believe them other than for the ubiquitous "it's inspirational" and the church says you ought to.

All the apparitions that the Vatican has NOT determined to be valid meet every justification you've given us here about Fatima, you know, except for the church's stamp of approval-- God can do anything. The people will be inspired and draw closer to Jesus. We need to be reminded to pray. Strange things were seen. What was said by the personage was important to hear. And, oh yes, the world needed to repent because it was losing its faith.

 

[Erose]

If that's what this is supposed to have been all about, the world went on losing more of its faith during the 1920s and war barely took a 'time out.'

As was the warning in the visions. Mary warned of WW2 in the visions.

This wasn't a case of a prophet being sent.

No, Christ sent His mother instead.

But here the woman in the vision was supposed to say that all COULD be saved, which no part of even RC theology says is possible.

No she said to pray for the redemption of all sinners. There is a difference there that you are ignoring.

It is certainly true that the words that were reportedly spoken are not consistent with standard Christian thinking, all denominational differenses aside.

Which ones. I haven't seen any examples. If you are talking about the prayer that Rhamiel posted there is nothing in that prayer that is counter to the teachings of faith. We are called to pray for all sinners and their salvation. Are you telling me that Protestants don't pray for sinners?

 

[Erose]

Don't indulge in fantasy like that, at least not in public. Why we don't believe in "them" is because there is no reason to believe in them. None of the Catholics here can even give a genuine reason why they themselves believe them other than for the ubiquitous "it's inspirational" and the church says you ought to.

All the apparitions that the Vatican has NOT determined to be valid meet every justification you've given us here about Fatima, you know, except for the church's stamp of approval-- God can do anything. The people will be inspired and draw closer to Jesus. We need to be reminded to pray. Strange things were seen. What was said by the personage was important to hear. And, oh yes, the world needed to repent because it was losing its faith.

Well don't believe in them. But to say that if they happened they had to be of the devil because they didn't espouse Protestant teachings so they had to be from the devil is just plain silly.

 

[Albion]

Well don't believe in them.

Of course, you don't believe in them. You go by your church's determination of whether any of them is genuine or fraudulent. But the reasons you gave for why Fatima must be real and worthwhile for us, why it occurred, apply every bit as much to the fake apparitions. Doesn't say much for the reasons you believe in Fatima.

 

[Albion]

As was the warning in the visions. Mary warned of WW2 in the visions.

The apparition didn't accomplish anything then, did it?

No, Christ sent His mother instead.

We agree then that this was not--as was said before--a case of prophesy, and that therefore that isn't an explanation.

No she said to pray for the redemption of all sinners. There is a difference there that you are ignoring.

What you are missing is that the church to which she supposedly came doesn't believe that all will be saved. That means that the whole thing was questionable.

Which ones. I haven't seen any examples. If you are talking about the prayer that Rhamiel posted there is nothing in that prayer that is counter to the teachings of faith.

That all may be saved if we pray for it isn't orthodox.

 

[Kepha]

What you are missing is that the church to which she supposedly came doesn't believe that all will be saved. That means that the whole thing was questionable.
That all may be saved if we pray for it isn't orthodox.

You're a frustrating one to talk to I give you that. You wish to nit pick every word out of a Catholic context and then condemn us with it. Don't you think it's a bit odd She'd also show the vision of hell where the souls of poor sinners go if She really meant All as in every human that walked the earth past present and future.

Remember context is everything, if not then every single person in their known world, came to Egypt to buy grain from Joseph. But I can guarantee you that people who read this won't automatically assume this unless they wish to nit pick.

"And all the world came to Egypt to buy grain from Joseph, because the famine was severe everywhere."
(Gen 41:57 TNIV)

 

[whitetiger1]

Scripture even says that God wills all to be saved but not all will be. There really is nothing wrong with the Fatima prayer:

O my Jesus, forgive us our sins.
Save us from the fires of hell,
lead all souls to heaven
especially those
in most need of thy mercy.



That does not mean that everyone will be saved it is just a prayer. Evangelicals witness to all, should they stop because not all will go to Heaven, indeed I hope they wouldn't.

 

[Kepha]

If one is a properly catechized Catholic, as they are saying this Prayer, they could understand quite easily that 'All Souls' means the all people currently walking the earth, not those that have died and are already Judged.

 

[Albion]

You're a frustrating one to talk to I give you that. You wish to nit pick every word out of a Catholic context and then condemn us with it.

Well, the flip side of that is to take offense at every last reservation or concern that is mentioned to you. Much of the time I find that people are outraged that questions are even asked or differences of opinion voiced...yet everyone is supposed to be here for the purposes of entering into discussion.

Don't you think it's a bit odd She'd also show the vision of hell where the souls of poor sinners go if She really meant All as in every human that walked the earth past present and future.

Look, the person, Virgin or whoever or whatever it was, is believed to have talked to children! Do we honestly think that she came to deliver a message to theologians but decided to have children deliver it for her? If something is supposed to be a revelation, it has to be revealing.

 

[Erose]

The apparition didn't accomplish anything then, did it?


We agree then that this was not--as was said before--a case of prophesy, and that therefore that isn't an explanation.


What you are missing is that the church to which she supposedly came doesn't believe that all will be saved. That means that the whole thing was questionable.



That all may be saved if we pray for it isn't orthodox.

Your opinion and you have a right to one. But I am tired of kicking this dead horse. I don't expect non-Catholics to believe in this or any other Apparition as I have said before. So let us end this by agreeing to disagree and move on, shall we.

 

[Albion]

Your opinion and you have a right to one.

Just like all of us, but the possibility of universal salvation is kind of a fringy religious POV, such that for this to be the Virgins big message is hard to appreciate.

But I am tired of kicking this dead horse. I don't expect non-Catholics to believe in this...

I can sympathize with that, but you did expect us to earlier, which was the reason we asked some questions. I assure you that the discussion would have moved along much faster if the non-Protestants here had just answered the questions we asked. Most of them were eminently fair. Now you've left us to conclude that the only reason you believe this apparition to be genuine is that your church tells you to.

 

[Erose]

Just like all of us, but the possibility of universal salvation is kind of a fringy religious POV, such that for this to be the Virgins big message is hard to appreciate.

What are you talking about here? Are we now off of Fatima now and starting a thread within a thread?

I can sympathize with that, but you did expect us to earlier, which was the reason we asked some questions. I assure you that the discussion would have moved along much faster if the non-Protestants here had just answered the questions we asked. Most of them were eminently fair. Now you've left us to conclude that the only reason you believe this apparition to be genuine is that your church tells you to.

No I am not that niave to think that agendas are going to be changed here. But I do feel like questions were answered. This conversation would have went alot faster if Protestant didn't ignore the non-Protestant's answers to their questions.

 

[Albion]

What are you talking about here? Are we now off of Fatima now and starting a thread within a thread?

No, I was referring to the Virgin's alleged message to the children at Fatima that has been reproduced on this thread a number of times.

No I am not that niave to think that agendas are going to be changed here. But I do feel like questions were answered.

Some.

This conversation would have went alot faster if Protestant didn't ignore the non-Protestant's answers to their questions.

If we were both being objective, we'd agree that some key questions were just ignored by the non-Protestants. And if you are referring to us not accepting some of the evasive answers we were given, that would be only because they either didn't address the question directly or were more like testimonials than answers.

 

[Erose]

No, I was referring to the Virgin's alleged message to the children at Fatima that has been reproduced on this thread a number of times.

Which one? There was bunch on this thread. Personally I just don't see where you are getting this. The first vision was of hell. If Our Lady of Fatima was teaching universal salvation, hell would not have been one of the visions.

If we were both being objective, we'd agree that some key questions were just ignored by the non-Protestants. And if you are referring to us not accepting some of the evasive answers we were given, that would be only because they either didn't address the question directly or were more like testimonials than answers.

If we were both being objective that swings both ways always on this forum. Always.