Miracle of Fatima

[childofdust]

Thanks, peeps, for referencing all the visions, speeches, accounts, etc.

As a non-Catholic, I'd have to agree with whoever said if these visions and their miracles are real (the real miracle seems to be the instant drying of everyone's clothing after standing out in the rain all day), then it really does substantiate a lot of the specifically Catholic ideas. !!!!!

Unlike some here, I don't dismiss it outright because it differs from what I think. However, I am a little concerned that it says so much! It almost makes me wonder if the vision and miracles were real, but the little girls were grossly and imaginatively embellishing on it. Because the kind of stuff that was apparently said to them by these visitors (angel of peace, mary, whoever), wasn't apparently said to anyone else and seems to be very "heavenly" or "non-earthly," - that also concerns me.

 

[Nephi]

Of course. What did you think I meant?

I misunderstood your post to be a literal "dance." I apologize.

??

No it doesn't. All it confirms is that these people were predisposed to think that Mary was in the business of apparitions.


OK, this is all possible IF the apparition were real. IOW the sun was one thing; the Mary part is something else. But even so, don't you think that those who believed in all these items were naturally going to think that the alleged apparition were going to be in step with them? That is to say, if the apparition had said one thing that might not be anticipated or in step with accepted RC belief, THAT would really be news. Prophesies usually reveal something and don't just say "what you already believe...good for you."

The apparition's intent was not to "reveal something [not "in step with accepted RC belief]," although I suppose you could say it did upon closer inspection. Since you don't seem to have a very deep knowledge of Fatima, the prophecies, and the "miracles," I'll explain.

Let's start with the context within which this all occurred back in 1916/1917:

Portugal, as well as many modern countries at the time, had become a hotbed for atheistic (anti-clerical) socialism. This led to an oppression (not Soviet-style, but oppression nonetheless) of organized religion in Portugal. Religious activity was hidden as a result which is why the children would be taken captive later on by a local official.

In 1916 the three children were visited by an "angel." Thrice.

In 1917:
May 13th, was when "Mary" appeared to them. The apparition told them to come back every month on the same day at the same time.

June 13th, "Mary" makes a prophetic statement, "Yes, I will take Jacinta and Francisco soon. But you are to stay here some time longer." Francisco dies two years later, and Jacinta three; Lucia lived for decades.
The people gathered to witness the apparition do not see "Mary," but did see that "branches of the tree were bent down all around it, as though the weight of Our Lady were really resting on it." And others "saw nothing but a slight cloud."

In reference to your statement about what her intent was, the apparition stated it rather bluntly: "Jesus wishes to make use of you [children] to make Me known and loved. He wants to establish in the world devotion to My Immaculate Heart."

July 13th, "Mary" makes the prophetic statement in reference to the spectacle of the sun:

“Continue to come here every month,” the Lady told the children. “In October I will tell you who I am, and what I want and I will perform a miracle for all to see and believe.”
​

It further elaborates on the apparition's mission by requesting "reparation for the sins committed against the Immaculate Heart of Mary."

It goes even further:

"The war [World War I] is going to end; but if people do not cease offending God, a worse one will break out during the reign of Pius XI [World War II].

”When you see a night illuminated by an unknown light, know that this is the great sign given you by God that He is about to punish the world for its crimes, by means of war, famine, and persecutions against the Church and the Holy Father.

“To prevent this, I shall come to ask for the consecration of Russia to My Immaculate Heart, and the Communion of Reparation on the First Saturdays.
​

The above not only prophecies, but it also elaborates the objective of the apparition: World War I would end soon, World War II would begin (the year of Pius XI's death), the Pope would later be shot and seriously injured. "Mary" also requests the consecration of Russia to her Immaculate Heart to prevent more bloodshed.

August 13, the children are kidnapped last minute by the local mayor and miss their appointed meeting, but thousands of pilgrims flocked in an attempt to see the apparition. They reported seeing this: "It was then that they witnessed the clap of thunder and flash of light just as before. A small, white cloud hovered for a few moments over the holm-oak, then rose towards the sky and disappeared."

September 13, no prophecies or unique messages, but pilgrims witnessed a variety of supernatural phenomenon. However a reminder of October is re-issued.

October 13, the most important day by far.

Apparition makes her first demands, and a prophecy about World War I again:
​

“I want a chapel to be built here in My honor. I am the Lady of the Rosary. Continue to pray the Rosary every day. The war will soon end and the soldiers will return to their homes.”​

Then the spectacle happened with it having been raining since the night before, and the ground completely mud by that point. That was until:
​

"The sky cleared and the people could look at the sun without it hurting their eyes at all. Then the sun began to spin in place. It gave off different colors, first red, then green, then blue. As the sun spun around in its place, the colors would fall on the people.
After about four minutes, the sun stopped spinning. Then, shortly after that, it started again, this time spinning more rapidly and with more beautiful colors. After four more minutes, it stopped again. Then, it began a third time to spin with still more beautiful colors. Then, it started to zigzag in the sky. It went up and down like a yo-yo. Then it started to fall, plunging towards the earth.
The sun became very large in the sky and very hot. It looked as if it was going to fall on top of the people and kill them all, as if it was the end of the world. So, the people fell on their knees in the mud and cried to God for mercy, begging Our Lady for Her help, Her intercession, and Her prayers.
Suddenly, the sun stopped falling and went back up into the sky to its regular place. Then the people got up from their knees and they all began to notice that their clothes were dry and clean. And the ground was not muddy either, but dry."

​

So we have the reasons the apparition came: (1) Consecrate Russia to the Immaculate Heart, (2) get reparations for sins against Mary, (3) to have a chapel built in her honor, (4) encourage praying of the Rosary, (5) establish devotion to the Immaculate Heart, (6) prevent death and destruction caused by offenses to Christ and Mary.

And the prophecies given and fulfilled by the apparition: (1) The soon deaths of Jacinta and Francisco, (2) the soon end of World War I, (3) World War II, (4) the supernatural event on October 13, 1917 - the so-called miracle of the sun, (5) the sufferings that Lucia would go through, (6) the persecution against the Church and the Pope's injury, (7) the inevitable setting-straight of Russia.

Then we have the "miracles:" (1) the spectacle of the sun, (2) and the visible phenomenon that occurred during each of the apparition's visitations on the 13th that were witnessed by the large numbers of pilgrims, (3) alleged healings and cures.

These are only the Fatima-related occurrences within 1916, and 1917. I believe more occurred throughout the life of Lucia, but these examples should suffice in relation to your statements regarding prophecies ("??," and "Prophesies usually reveal something"), the connection between the phenomenon and "Mary" ("OK, this is all possible IF the apparition were real. IOW the sun was one thing; the Mary part is something else."), what the apparition revealed and what its intent was ("That is to say, if the apparition had said one thing that might not be anticipated or in step with accepted RC belief, THAT would really be news."), etc.

The short of it: please learn more about what you're criticizing before you begin to speak to other people condescendingly as you have several times now. Thank you.
​

 

[Albion]

The apparition's intent was not to "reveal something [not "in step with accepted RC belief]," although I suppose you could say it did upon closer inspection. Since you don't seem to have a very deep knowledge of Fatima, the prophecies, and the "miracles," I'll explain.

Let's start with the context within which this all occurred back in 1916/1917:

Oh let's not. I have the same access to internet websites as you do.

I am the Lady of the Rosary. Continue to pray the Rosary every day. The war will soon end and the soldiers will return to their homes.”

The war was nowhere near to ending soon and some of the other predictions you've named were similarly incorrect. So if the Virgin was half-right in all these things, what does that tell us?


​

The short of it: please learn more about what you're criticizing before you begin to speak to other people condescendingly as you have several times now. Thank you.

unlearned and condescending? I don't think so.

Maybe you feel you were talked down to by someone else in the past?? What I've done here is merely hold up reasonable objections in response to facile claims so that anyone who cares can try to show that the objections are not convincing. That's a way of getting at the facts and deciding what's probably true and what's shaky. It helps if that which is not personal isn't taken personally.

 

[Erose]

I should have included the whole quote

"or make sacrifices for them."

So we shouldn't fast and offer novenas for our friends and family?

 

[Albion]

So we shouldn't fast and offer novenas for our friends and family?

No.

 

[Erose]

No.

Matt 17: [16] Then Jesus answered and said: O unbelieving and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me. [17] And Jesus rebuked him, and the devil went out of him, and the child was cured from that hour. [18] Then came the disciples to Jesus secretly, and said: Why could not we cast him out? [19] Jesus said to them: Because of your unbelief. For, amen I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you shall say to this mountain, Remove from hence hither, and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible to you. [20] But this kind is not cast out but by prayer and fasting.


Eph 3: [11] According to the eternal purpose, which he made, in Christ Jesus our Lord: [12] In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him. [13] Wherefore I pray you not to faint at my tribulations for you, which is your glory. [14] For this cause I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, [15] Of whom all paternity in heaven and earth is named, [16] That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened by his Spirit with might unto the inward man, [17] That Christ may dwell by faith in your hearts; that being rooted and founded in charity, [18] You may be able to comprehend, with all the saints, what is the breadth, and length, and height, and depth: [19] To know also the charity of Christ, which surpasseth all knowledge, that you may be filled unto all the fulness of God. [20] Now to him who is able to do all things more abundantly than we desire or understand, according to the power that worketh in us;

1 Cor 7: [13] And if any woman hath a husband that believeth not, and he consent to dwell with her, let her not put away her husband. [14] For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the believing wife; and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the believing husband: otherwise your children should be unclean; but now they are holy. [15] But if the unbeliever depart, let him depart. For a brother or sister is not under servitude in such cases. But God hath called us in peace. [16] For how knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? Or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?

 

[bbbbbbb]

Matt 17: [16] Then Jesus answered and said: O unbelieving and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me. [17] And Jesus rebuked him, and the devil went out of him, and the child was cured from that hour. [18] Then came the disciples to Jesus secretly, and said: Why could not we cast him out? [19] Jesus said to them: Because of your unbelief. For, amen I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you shall say to this mountain, Remove from hence hither, and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible to you. [20] But this kind is not cast out but by prayer and fasting.


Eph 3: [11] According to the eternal purpose, which he made, in Christ Jesus our Lord: [12] In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him. [13] Wherefore I pray you not to faint at my tribulations for you, which is your glory. [14] For this cause I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, [15] Of whom all paternity in heaven and earth is named, [16] That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened by his Spirit with might unto the inward man, [17] That Christ may dwell by faith in your hearts; that being rooted and founded in charity, [18] You may be able to comprehend, with all the saints, what is the breadth, and length, and height, and depth: [19] To know also the charity of Christ, which surpasseth all knowledge, that you may be filled unto all the fulness of God. [20] Now to him who is able to do all things more abundantly than we desire or understand, according to the power that worketh in us;

1 Cor 7: [13] And if any woman hath a husband that believeth not, and he consent to dwell with her, let her not put away her husband. [14] For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the believing wife; and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the believing husband: otherwise your children should be unclean; but now they are holy. [15] But if the unbeliever depart, let him depart. For a brother or sister is not under servitude in such cases. But God hath called us in peace. [16] For how knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? Or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?

It is one thing to actively seek the salvation of living members of our families and quite another thing to seek their salvation after their death. It is absurd for a Christian to believe that our actions can affect God's judgment of an individual following his demise.

 

[Erose]

It is one thing to actively seek the salvation of living members of our families and quite another thing to seek their salvation after their death. It is absurd for a Christian to believe that our actions can affect God's judgment of an individual following his demise.

Is that what Albion is referring to 7bs? If so then she completely missed the understanding of that quote she gave. Here is Albion's quote: "I read one of those that had one of the children saying that the woman told her that many souls go to hell because there is no one to pray for them." Is it innappropiate to pray for our fellow human beings who are not saved that they may become saved. It has nothing to do with those already in hell. If someone is in hell that is the place that they are at.

For Catholics the "dead" that are edified by prayers are those in the state of purgation and those alone. Those that are in this state are already "saved", and are awaiting to see God face to face.

Also I think we can also pray for those who have passed that we know were not living a Christian life, in the hope that before they died they did as the thief on the cross did and come to Jesus with a repentant heart. I see nothing wrong with this either since our God does not exist in time and as such our prayers can be retroactive in a sense.

I pray daily for all of my relatives and friends that have fallen asleep and pray for their souls. I don't know what state they are in whether heaven, hell or purgatory, so I pray in faith that if they are in heaven they are interceding for me and my faimily, if in purgatory that they will finally be allowed to see God face to face, and in hell, well there is nothing I can do for them.

But the fact of the matter is I can't tell you one way or another what state any of my family and friends are in for I am not the Judge. The person that l would assume is hell-bound may have repented before his death. The person I would assume is heaven-bound may not be as well. So all I can do is pray for them all.

 

[Albion]

Matt 17: [16] Then Jesus answered and said: O unbelieving and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me. [17] And Jesus rebuked him, and the devil went out of him, and the child was cured from that hour. [18] Then came the disciples to Jesus secretly, and said: Why could not we cast him out? [19] Jesus said to them: Because of your unbelief. For, amen I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you shall say to this mountain, Remove from hence hither, and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible to you. [20] But this kind is not cast out but by prayer and fasting.


Eph 3: [11] According to the eternal purpose, which he made, in Christ Jesus our Lord: [12] In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him. [13] Wherefore I pray you not to faint at my tribulations for you, which is your glory. [14] For this cause I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, [15] Of whom all paternity in heaven and earth is named, [16] That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened by his Spirit with might unto the inward man, [17] That Christ may dwell by faith in your hearts; that being rooted and founded in charity, [18] You may be able to comprehend, with all the saints, what is the breadth, and length, and height, and depth: [19] To know also the charity of Christ, which surpasseth all knowledge, that you may be filled unto all the fulness of God. [20] Now to him who is able to do all things more abundantly than we desire or understand, according to the power that worketh in us;

1 Cor 7: [13] And if any woman hath a husband that believeth not, and he consent to dwell with her, let her not put away her husband. [14] For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the believing wife; and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the believing husband: otherwise your children should be unclean; but now they are holy. [15] But if the unbeliever depart, let him depart. For a brother or sister is not under servitude in such cases. But God hath called us in peace. [16] For how knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? Or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?

Point out for me the part that describes or recommends a novena (what you asked me about).

 

[Erose]

Point out for me the part that describes or recommends a novena (what you asked me about).

A novena is prayer Albion.

 

[Albion]

Is that what Albion is referring to 7bs? If so then she completely missed the understanding of that quote she gave. Here is Albion's quote: "I read one of those that had one of the children saying that the woman told her that many souls go to hell because there is no one to pray for them." Is it innappropiate to pray for our fellow human beings who are not saved that they may become saved. It has nothing to do with those already in hell. If someone is in hell that is the place that they are at.

I guess you missed the point. It happens. I'm not a "she," so misunderstanding what I was talking about may just follow naturally.

Also I think we can also pray for those who have passed that we know were not living a Christian life, in the hope that before they died they did as the thief on the cross did and come to Jesus with a repentant heart.

You think that praying for someone who is deceased that he may HAVE ALREADY repented before his death?? That really doesn't make any sense.

 

[Albion]

A novena is prayer Albion.

I know what it is Erose.

I said to point it out to me in your lengthy cut and paste. Oh, it's not there. And a Novena is not just 'prayer,' Erose. It is a special series of prayers that are supposed to have special powers if prayed in the specified way.

 

[Erose]

I know what it is Erose.

I said to point it out to me in your lengthy cut and paste. Oh, it's not there. And a Novena is not just 'prayer,' Erose. It is a special series of prayers that are supposed to have special powers if prayed in the specified way.

Is it prayer or not Albion? There are many types of prayer and does these passages say that one type of prayer is excluded?

 

[bbbbbbb]

Here is a good explanation of what a novena is - Novena - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It is the repetition of specific rote prayers over a period of nine days. One can easily argue that repeating prayers and other words is not prayer, even as our Lord instructed His disciples not to engage in repetitious prayers. (Matthew 6:1-8)

 

[Erose]

I guess you missed the point. It happens. I'm not a "she," so misunderstanding what I was talking about may just follow naturally.

Sorry about the she thing. It happens to me all the time as well.

I do feel though that at times we are writing around each other and maybe not understanding each other's thoughts. I am not sure how to correct this though.

You think that praying for someone who is deceased that he may HAVE ALREADY repented before his death?? That really doesn't make any sense.

In 2 Maccabees (which I know you guys no longer have in your Bible) teaches us that it is good to pray and offer sacrifices for our deceased Brethren and as such that is what we do. Again, I don't know what their final stop is, so I pray for all no matter who.

I understand why this may be a difficult thing to understand for you guys for 2 Mac is really the only book that has an explicit teaching on this. It if found in other places mind you but only implicitly and as such it is easy for that understanding to be missed.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Is that what Albion is referring to 7bs? If so then she completely missed the understanding of that quote she gave. Here is Albion's quote: "I read one of those that had one of the children saying that the woman told her that many souls go to hell because there is no one to pray for them." Is it innappropiate to pray for our fellow human beings who are not saved that they may become saved. It has nothing to do with those already in hell. If someone is in hell that is the place that they are at.

For Catholics the "dead" that are edified by prayers are those in the state of purgation and those alone. Those that are in this state are already "saved", and are awaiting to see God face to face.

Also I think we can also pray for those who have passed that we know were not living a Christian life, in the hope that before they died they did as the thief on the cross did and come to Jesus with a repentant heart. I see nothing wrong with this either since our God does not exist in time and as such our prayers can be retroactive in a sense.

I pray daily for all of my relatives and friends that have fallen asleep and pray for their souls. I don't know what state they are in whether heaven, hell or purgatory, so I pray in faith that if they are in heaven they are interceding for me and my faimily, if in purgatory that they will finally be allowed to see God face to face, and in hell, well there is nothing I can do for them.

But the fact of the matter is I can't tell you one way or another what state any of my family and friends are in for I am not the Judge. The person that l would assume is hell-bound may have repented before his death. The person I would assume is heaven-bound may not be as well. So all I can do is pray for them all.

If you believe in the Traditional Catholic Purgatory, then you might have a reason to find ways to shorten the torture of the soul there. However, if you hold to the contempory Catholic view of purgation (as you seem to) which is a refreshing, cleansing shower prior to entering heaven, then prayers for those souls are unnecessary, at best.

As Albion (a man) pointed out, it is absurd to pray for an event (repentance and faith prior to death) to happen which already is past.

 

[Albion]

Sorry about the she thing. It happens to me all the time as well.

I do feel though that at times we are writing around each other and maybe not understanding each other's thoughts. I am not sure how to correct this though.

I've been feeling the same way.

In 2 Maccabees (which I know you guys no longer have in your Bible)

We read the Apocrypha, but it's just not inspired.

teaches us that it is good to pray and offer sacrifices for our deceased Brethren and as such that is what we do. Again, I don't know what their final stop is, so I pray for all no matter who.

Perhaps but that doesn't cover that rather strange idea of praying for someone who has already died that he might have repented before he actually died. What is that supposed to accomplish? You wouldn't be praying for someone to be released from Purgatory and of course praying for those in Hell is usually considered too late. Then again, if the person had repented at the last minute, he wouldn't be in Hell, would he?

I understand why this may be a difficult thing to understand for you guys

Here's a hint I hope you take to heart, considering that you started this on a conciliatory note. DON'T KEEP TALKING DOWN TO US, saying that we don't know or understand what a novena is, what's in Maccabees, or etc. The idea that only Catholics know such things is ridiculous, and besides, many of us were Roman Catholics for longer than most of the RCs here on CF and, in many cases, know their church better than they do.

2 Mac is really the only book that has an explicit teaching on this. It if found in other places mind you but only implicitly and as such it is easy for that understanding to be missed.

Really? You don't say? Let me write that down.

 

[Erose]

Here is a good explanation of what a novena is - Novena - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It is the repetition of specific rote prayers over a period of nine days. One can easily argue that repeating prayers and other words is not prayer, even as our Lord instructed His disciples not to engage in repetitious prayers. (Matthew 6:1-8)

I think the key is intent. Liturgical prayer is important for it is the act of the whole community. I pray the Divine Office daily and there is repetition there, even though I do it privately I know I am offering it up in communion with all those that are also praying the office.

It does get boring at times and I need to keep my focus but I have learned that when I get away from this discipline my spiritual life suffers and suffers greatly.

Also let us not forget that God gave us the Our Father to pray along with the Psalms and other prayers and canticles found throughout Scripture.

Novena is not just a prayer but also a discipline in that I am going to offer this prayer no matter what for 9 days or however long for the sake of my intention.

 

[Erose]

If you believe in the Traditional Catholic Purgatory, then you might have a reason to find ways to shorten the torture of the soul there. However, if you hold to the contempory Catholic view of purgation (as you seem to) which is a refreshing, cleansing shower prior to entering heaven, then prayers for those souls are unnecessary, at best.

I don't see how you can equate that. We do not know how long the purging process lasts. So we pray for them. The ancient Jews and even modern Jews pray for their dead for one year. But no one can know what length is required. We just know that it is good for us to pray for them.

As Abion (a man) pointed out, it is absurd to pray for an event (repentance and faith prior to death) to happen which already is past.

So God isn't eternal?

 

[Erose]

Perhaps but that doesn't cover that rather strange idea of praying for someone who has already died that he might have repented before he actually died. What is that supposed to accomplish? You wouldn't be praying for someone to be released from Purgatory and of course praying for those in Hell is usually considered too late. Then again, if the person had repented at the last minute, he wouldn't be in Hell, would he?

And there is the key to why it is good to pray for all dead for we just do not know what the state of their soul was at their death.

Here's a hint I hope you take to heart, considering that you started this on a conciliatory note. DON'T KEEP TALKING DOWN TO US, saying that we don't know or understand what a novena is, what's in Maccabees, or etc. The idea that only Catholics know such things is ridiculous, and besides, many of us were Roman Catholics for longer than most of the RCs here on CF and, in many cases, know their church better than they do.

So you are saying not to defend our faith? For example when I used the word "novena" the response you gave me was one that sounded as if you did not know that a "novena" was a form of prayer. So I explained that it is. I don't feel like I am talking down to anyone, but just trying to answer the questions proposed in a matter that hopefully will convey my thoughts. But the problem is I don't know what you know. I only know what you wrote. As far as I know you didn't know what a novena is or that in 2 Mac has the only explicit teaching on praying for the dead. I would assume that most non-Catholic/Orthodox would not know. So I provide information. It may be a good thing at times for you guys to provide a little more information where you are coming from on some matter. Because it sure can get confusing at times.

Really? You don't say? Let me write that down.

So I am the only one talking down or being insulting???