Magic Puppet Theory

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Dorothea I thought the Church was the Pillar of the truth.

Oh you find fast that that is wrong and any tradition along with it is. Go figure Christians for eons have been wrong, who knew.

Inquiring minds want to know

http://www.christianforums.com/t4072606/
What is the pillar and foundation of truth?

What is the pillar and foundation of truth?

1 Timothy 3:15

if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

 

[Dorothea]

Oh you find fast that that is wrong and any tradition along with it is. Go figure Christians for eons have been wrong, who knew.

I personally think that just because we live in the "modern" world with supposedly more knowledge in all kinds of fields does not make one smarter than those before them.

 

[Dorothea]

I think that my position would be more accurately summed up by saying that the plan of salvation was articulated in Scripture as precisely as it needed to be at the time. But neither Paul, nor Peter, nor John had to use any language to combat Arianism or Nestorianism. Their issues were Paganism, Judaizing and, later, Gnosticism, and the language of Scripture (more accurately, the New Testament, as the Old Testament is written in a different context) reflects that. It's certainly summed up in today's Epistle reading, which is Eph 4:7-13:

9-10 (NKJV) (Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)

This is a pretty concise summary of the "plan of salvation" (other summaries are found elsewhere). Christ descended and then ascended that He might fill all things, and the ramifications of that could be expounded upon (which is beyond the scope of this thread... I'm just giving an example). We would have no problem calling that "the Gospel", although one could certainly say it differently. But as new heresies arose, we had to clarify what we meant when we said things.

Perhaps a different way to describe what we mean by "Tradition" might be something along the lines of: the heritage of the Church is not a body of beliefs, but the possession of Someone - it is the knowledge of God. The Church knows her Christ. That experience of the Church was the same in 33AD as it is now, and that is what is "handed down". When a wolf comes in proclaiming a different Christ, the Church can call his bluff. But, depending on the nature of the wolf, pulling out a Jn 3:16 or some other proof text won't suffice, as the language that the Apostles used was suited to the issues at their time. So the Church can use contemporary terminology to describe her experience with her Christ. And that contemporary terminology, although different from the language that the Apostles used, is still describing the same Christ/God.

So the plan of salvation is in Scripture. It's just that the words of Scripture in and of themselves are not meant to be a once-and-for-all text book to which we can refer someone when they are in error.

I hope that makes sense and that I didn't muddle that up too badly.

it made perfect sense and is an excellent explanation and post, knee.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I personally think that just because we live in the "modern" world with supposedly more knowledge in all kinds of fields does not make one smarter than those before them.

Yeah.....tis a shame indeed

Daniel 12:4 And thou Daniye'l, stop-up! the words, and seal! the Scroll till time of end.
Many ones shall go to and fro and the knowledge shall abound.

Young) Hebrews 8:11 and they shall not teach each his neighbour, and each his brother, saying, 'know thou the LORD',
Because they shall all know Me, from the small one of them, unto the great one of them,
[Jeremiah 31:34]

 

[Dorothea]

Yeah.....tis a shame indeed

Daniel 12:4 And thou Daniye'l, stop-up! the words, and seal! the Scroll till time of end.
Many ones shall go to and fro and the knowledge shall abound.

Young) Hebrews 8:11 and they shall not teach each his neighbour, and each his brother, saying, 'know thou the LORD',
Because they shall all know Me, from the small one of them, unto the great one of them,
[Jeremiah 31:34]

Something funny popped into my mind regarding those before us. It reminds me of when we were teens and in our 20s and thought we knew better than our parents or grandparents. Turned out they really did know things.

 

[Rick Otto]

Inquiring minds want to know
What is the pillar and foundation of truth?

Here's "Pope" John Gill's "encyclical" says on that:

the pillar and ground of the truth;
which holds forth the truth to be seen and read of all, as pillars that bear inscriptions; and which supports and maintains truth, as every true church of Christ does so long as it remains so; though truth is the pillar and ground of the church; for if once truth is gone, a church is no more so: rather therefore Timothy himself is here designed; and the sense is, that what was written to him was with this view, that he might the better know how to conduct himself in the church of God, as a pillar and ground of truth, to hold it forth and to secure it: ministers of the Gospel are called pillars, (Galatians 2:9) and that with greater propriety than the church itself, which is before called an house: though it may be best of all to understand it of Christ as incarnate, the great mystery of godliness; who as he is the ground and foundation of the church, and all believers, so he is the foundation of all true doctrine; and particularly the doctrine of his person, as truly God and truly man, is the pillar and ground which supports all other truths, and without which they fall to the ground: and so this clause may be read in connection with the following words, thus; "the pillar and ground of the truth, and without controversy, is the great mystery of godliness, &c". And this way of speaking is used by the Jews, both of persons and things; so Zebulun is said to be (hrwth dwme) , "the pillar of the law"; and it is said of

``the great sanhedrim in Jerusalem, they are the root of the oral law; and they are (harwhh ydwme) , "the pillars of doctrine"; and from them go forth the statutes and judgments unto Israel;''
​

and the same is said of things as of persons. Maimonides says,

``the foundation of foundations and the pillar of wisdom, is to know that there is a first Being, that gives being to all beings;''
​

and R. Sangari, another of their writers, says,

``there are two things which are (hrwth ydwme) , "the pillars of the law"; the one is, that the law is from God; the other is, that it is received with a faithful (or sincere) heart, from the congregation:''
​

to which may be added, that it is said that

``the mystery of faith is "(amwyqw arqe) , "the root and ground" of the world";''
​

all which may serve to illustrate this passage.

 

[Montalban]

If I may say it makes great sense

The context of that passage from Timothy which Protestants here wish to claim supports sola scriptura is in fact Paul instructing Timothy to check the OT, not the NT.

It doesn't say scripture is all sufficient, but only that it is profitable to consult it, which it is.

1 Thess. 3:10 Paul says that he will speak in person. His letter is not enough.

How could his letters be? He didn't write a letter to the Corinthians BEFORE he instructed them. Although it's of interest to note that he wrote to them other letters...1 Corinthians 5:9-11 - this verse shows that a prior letter written to Corinth is equally authoritative but not part of the New Testament canon. Paul is again appealing to a source outside of Scripture to teach the Corinthians. This disproves sola scriptura.

The example of sola scriptura is not evident by the Apostles

 

[Rick Otto]

NT Scripture won't vaidate funny clothes & elaborate rituals, or the orthodox preference for taking personal credit for salvation, but it does testify of it's own sufficiency in conveying salvific truth:
[15] And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
[17] That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works

Not some good works,... ALL of them.

 

[Montalban]

Something funny popped into my mind regarding those before us. It reminds me of when we were teens and in our 20s and thought we knew better than our parents or grandparents. Turned out they really did know things.

Some people I see who argue against an authority (such as the church) offer some of the most deliciously ironic argument; by arguing for their own faculty but in such illogical arguments.

The non-sequiturs, or the one-liner irrelevancies are actually a warning to others to look only to one's self as the ultimate arbiter of truth.

If there were at the very least a coherent argument for 'self' that would be a start.

 

[Dorothea]

Some people I see who argue against an authority (such as the church) offer some of the most deliciously ironic argument; by arguing for their own faculty but in such illogical arguments.

The non-sequiturs, or the one-liner irrelevancies are actually a warning to others to look only to one's self as the ultimate arbiter of truth.

If there were at the very least a coherent argument for 'self' that would be a start.

Well, this gal is all debated out. I'm tired of arguing with people. I need a respite for a while.

 

[Montalban]

Well, this gal is all debated out. I'm tired of arguing with people. I need a respite for a while.

Go Packers!

 

[Montalban]

BUMP

The magic puppet theory.

In talking about the formation of the Bible (which took place some 200 years or more after Jesus) I ask people how God worked with the church.

Some say that God can work with whomever he chooses.

I've heard it said that even by this time the church had already fallen into apostasy (some say it was changed by Constantine).

I believe this can be summed up in the 'Magic Puppet Theory'

It's a belief that God just worked these people and got them to compile a bible as a puppet-master manipulates his charges.

The church, if it was already apostate seems to just be manipulated into acting.

Of course, if it wasn't 'apostate' by this time then the theorists open themselves to me and others using evidence from writers of the church for those first centuries.

Did God just compel men to pick the books of the Bible?

 

[Knee V]

BUMP


Did God just compel men to pick the books of the Bible?

Were those men apostates?

 

[Montalban]

Were those men apostates?

That's another problem with Protestant rejection of 'the church' is that they can't agree when the church 'fell away'.

Some have suggested to me it happened under Constantine - yet many accept the Nicea Creed.

However none can tell me what new dogma was introduced, anyway.

 

[Sieben]

I don't have to agree with other protestants on this but...
They fell away in 313 ad

 

[Montalban]

I don't have to agree with other protestants on this but...
They fell away in 313 ad

Before the biblical canon was established?

 

[Sieben]

Before the biblical canon was established?

Oh, I was thinking whenever constantine was doing his thing

 

[Montalban]

Oh, I was thinking whenever constantine was doing his thing

What thing?

What made events do you think happened?

 

[razeontherock]

Magic puppets, or muppets?

The Muppets: Bohemian Rhapsody - YouTube

 

[Rick Otto]

I don't have to agree with other protestants on this but...
They fell away in 313 ad

Then, before, & after.
It is true Constantine's need was for order so it was a no-brainer to try & help this new religion get organized which meant getting it defined.