Miracle of Fatima

[whitetiger1]

Actually it was documented that even unbelievers and other non-Catholics seen the vision of the Sun dancing or at least changing colors. It was not an exclusive thing and not all people there in Fatima lay claim they saw anything and then there were many people miles away from Fatima that claim they seen the Sun do some crazy things. There is a reason why there has been groups of scientists that have worked on provided a reasonable explanation of what occurred in Fatima. If something was not seen that was extraordinary there then why spend the time trying to come up with a natural explanation?

I think that you have to look at the history of God's people. During that history they also claimed (as documented in various places in Scripture) of seeing miraculous things. Why would on assume that miracles ceased to exist after Christ's resurrection or the death of His last Apostle? Throughout Church history there have been claims of miraculous events and the Church has a division in the Vatican that deals exclusively with determining the validity of proposed miracles. From what I understand that if there is any doubt whatsoever that the miracle could have been a natural event then it is a natural event. There must be no doubt on the part of the investigators that what really happen was a miracle.

What Fatima proves IMHO is that Christ hasn't left us. That He is still with us and is still working in us and in the World to strengthen His kingdom. He is still on occasion when He deems it necessary to actively warn us that we are going too far away from Him as He did to the Jews.

I would recommend reading up on it just a little. Wiki has an ok article on Our Lady of Fatima.

That is one thing I don't understand people act like God said "Well I'll just stop doing miracles because it's the modern age"

 

[simonpeter]

Few Christians DO think that miracles have ceased. The question is why would visions of Mary accompanied by little else but encouragement to say the rosary be the heavy-hitter of modern miracles? I'd be much more impressed by something useful.

Who would need an apparition to prove that?

What it more likely proves, if real, is that backsliding Catholic nations need to turn back to Christ. That's the Catholic interpretation most often heard, not that I have a favorite theory and this is it. It does make sense, tho.

The miracle of the sun was witnessed by many, including scientists. That's surely a 'heavy-hitter' of modern miracles, right?

 

[Albion]

The miracle of the sun was witnessed by many, including scientists. That's surely a 'heavy-hitter' of modern miracles, right?

Well, that's not what I asked. It was about Mary supposedly appearing. Why should that be more miraculous than, say disease being eradicated or the world's Muslims being converted to Christ en masse. No, some people see a vision of Mary and she tells children to pray, etc.

As for the sun, the people probably did see some celestial optical illusion, but other than for the dazzling sight, is that really a life-changing event??

 

[Erose]

Well, that's not what I asked. It was about Mary supposedly appearing. Why should that be more miraculous than, say disease being eradicated or the world's Muslims being converted to Christ en masse. No, some people see a vision of Mary and she tells children to pray, etc.

As for the sun, the people probably did see some celestial optical illusion, but other than for the dazzling sight, is that really a life-changing event??

Evidently it was for a great number of people who either had their faith boosted by the event or converted to Christianity because of the events they saw or experienced. But I guess that is the work of the devil.

 

[Albion]

Evidently it was for a great number of people who either had their faith boosted by the event or converted to Christianity because of the events they saw or experienced. But I guess that is the work of the devil.

I never have said anything about the devil like that. Nice try, but if you would read what I said in the post you supposedly are responding to, I called it probably an optical phenomenon that is unexplained.

That it might have boosted some onlookers' devotion--well, sure. There are many Catholics who have been raised to expect such things, so whenever there is such a strange event, or even the suggestion of one, mass emotions kick in. You are aware, I suppose, that there have been many so-called apparitions of the Virgin Mary which the RCC has NOT declared to be genuine, right? Are you insisting that they are real anyway...or only that since superstitious people want to think them real that it serves a good purpose?

If so, is that your conclusion about the stain on the concrete bridge that is supposed to be of Mary, or the potato that looks like Mary or Jesus, or the reflection in the bank window that is supposed to be Mary. All of them have produced numbers of devotees bringing flowers and candles whose faith has been "boosted." And BTW, how does such devotion to a stain or reflection "boost" anyone's faith?

 

[Erose]

I never have said anything about the devil like that. Nice try, but if you would read what I said in the post you supposedly are responding to, I called it probably an optical phenomenon that is unexplained.

I didn't mean to direct it straight to you but to alot of individuals on this thread who have made such a claim and I shouldn't have did it in a response to you. For that I apologize.

Anyway the theory you have proposed has been offered as a possibility of explaining the event, but had been questioned because there has been differences in observations by the on lookers. Also there hasn't been recorded before or after a similar phenomenon. There is much on this event that is beyond the scope of this thread. But there were more than one miracle and this event has been vetted intensely by Church officials.

That is something that alot of people probably don't understand well when it comes to the cases of possible miraculous events that the Church always vets these occurances for more than one would expect. I think the reason for this is that fraud is just as damaging as miracles are uplifting.

That it might have boosted some onlookers' devotion--well, sure. There are many Catholics who have been raised to expect such things, so whenever there is such a strange event, or even the suggestion of one, mass emotions kick in. You are aware, I suppose, that there have been many so-called apparitions of the Virgin Mary which the RCC has NOT declared to be genuine, right? Are you insisting that they are real anyway...or only that since superstitious people want to think them real that it serves a good purpose?

To be honest I can't say that they are genuine or not. In all honesty, the Church doesn't mandate Catholics to believe in the events that have received the Church's vote of approval. Do I believe that Mary has appeared to certain people in the history of the Church? Yes, yes I do. Do I believe that every apparition that is claimed was truly an apparition? No I don't. I like the Church believes they need to be vetted and the fruits from these apparitions have to evaluated.

But to me there is no doubt that Mary has appeared at Fatima, Loudes, and Guadalupe. For the evidence proposed has been significant and the fruits from these appearances by Mary have been significantly positive.

Something else that is not well known is that Mary is not the only one that has appeared in history. Other saints and even Jesus Christ Himself have made appearances in the past as well.

Another point is I guess you are right that Catholics have an understanding that miracles still happen in this World and that God has not left us here alone. We do have throughout our history events and people where miracles have happened and they will continue to do so. Whether it is someone receiving a miraculous healing, or seeing someone from heaven, or a saint that God does incredible things through, or locations such as streams that have been blessed and miraculous healings have happened there, etc.

I think that this is a sad point that so many Christians don't have a sense for the miraculous. I remember when I was a Pentecostal back almost 20 years ago how much apprehension non-Pentecostals Protestants had for Pentecostals. And that what was occurring in these Pentecostal churches had to be of the devil for God just didn't work that way any longer. Personnally I think that this is one of the fruits of the Pentecostal movement in that it is opening the eyes of many Protestants that miraculous still happens. They are learning what Catholics have known for 2000 years and that is God is with us and He still does miracles for our benefit.

If so, is that your conclusion about the stain on the concrete bridge that is supposed to be of Mary, or the potato that looks like Mary or Jesus, or the reflection in the bank window that is supposed to be Mary. All of them have produced numbers of devotees bringing flowers and candles whose faith has been "boosted." And BTW, how does such devotion to a stain or reflection "boost" anyone's faith?

Fruits must be evaluated. But no I don't believe that every event is miraculous and I lean on the Church's vetting process to help me determine the validity of a miracle.

What many people who have made pilgrimages to Loudes or Fatima or the Holy Land have claimed is the incredible peace that they experience. As if they have experienced God. But that is for them to proclaim and not me. One day I hope I can make a pilgrimage or a series of pilgrimages to the Holy Land and a few of these places in Europe. Afterwards I can tell you first hand one way or another.

Anyway my opinion is if something (anything) that brings someone closer to God and/or brings one's attention towards God and the faith has some merit and shouldn't be discarded.

 

[Albion]

I didn't mean to direct it straight to you but to alot of individuals on this thread who have made such a claim and I shouldn't have did it in a response to you. For that I apologize.

Thanks.

Anyway the theory you have proposed has been offered as a possibility of explaining the event, but had been questioned because there has been differences in observations by the on lookers. Also there hasn't been recorded before or after a similar phenomenon. There is much on this event that is beyond the scope of this thread. But there were more than one miracle and this event has been vetted intensely by Church officials.

That's all true, but IMO it doesn't establish anything conclusively. It is common for different witnesses to any unusual event to describe what they saw in quite different ways.

But to me there is no doubt that Mary has appeared at Fatima, Loudes, and Guadalupe. For the evidence proposed has been significant and the fruits from these appearances by Mary have been significantly positive.

Let's say that these are genuine. Then there are many more that are believed in by the more devout (or superstitious) among us which are not genuine. That aside, we started this by inquiring into the importance of the "miracle." I asked what exactly was that miracle? To me, the consequences of Fatima or Lourdes is negligible. There haven't even been many healings at Lourdes--as the RCC itself has certified. Probablyh no more than mere faith would bring. Certainly not necessarily a miracle and nothing that has particularly moved the rest of Christendom.

Another point is I guess you are right that Catholics have an understanding that miracles still happen in this World and that God has not left us here alone. We do have throughout our history events and people where miracles have happened and they will continue to do so. Whether it is someone receiving a miraculous healing, or seeing someone from heaven, or a saint that God does incredible things through, or locations such as streams that have been blessed and miraculous healings have happened there, etc.

It's been theorized that such miracles, assuming them to be real, occur to Catholics and not the rest of us because Catholics need them in order to believe.

What many people who have made pilgrimages to Loudes or Fatima or the Holy Land have claimed is the incredible peace that they experience. As if they have experienced God.

Those same people feel that way when visiting the Vatican or any great shrine, even without any apparitions or miracles.

Anyway my opinion is if something (anything) that brings someone closer to God and/or brings one's attention towards God and the faith has some merit and shouldn't be discarded.

Why would you think that a flashy public miracle is the only kind of miracle? I believe that God cures cancer, restores marriages, and brings people back from addiction--all of which are miracles.

 

[Dorothea]

What Fatima proves IMHO is that Christ hasn't left us. That He is still with us and is still working in us and in the World to strengthen His kingdom.

Do you mean God's miracles still happen (and daily really)? I'd agree with you. Are you using Fatima as just an example of one of His miracles that the RCC believe happened?

 

[lindart]

I believe that Mary, chosen to be the mother of our Lord and Savior, has in many times past revealed herself to the innocents and faithful.

 

[Erose]

Do you mean God's miracles still happen (and daily really)? I'd agree with you. Are you using Fatima as just an example of one of His miracles that the RCC believe happened?

Yes I do believe God's miracles still happen and daily. Fatima is "an" example of God's work and not "the" example of God's work.

In all reality I have believed and teach my kids that every time we go to mass we see a miracle happen. Every time we go to mass on Easter Vigil and see those men and women getting baptized and confirmed we see miracles. Every time a Sacrament occurs there is a miracle happening. Greater miracles happen that we cannot see than those that we see. For example the poor man in the gospels that was sick with palsy. Which miracle was the greater: the miracle of God forgiving this man his sins or the miracle of God healing that man of Palsy? I say it is the forgiveness of his sins. I would take that miracle every day over being healed of one of my physical afflictions.

But don't forget dear sister that every time you celebrate the Divine Liturgy and Confession or any other of the 7 Sacraments you experience an even greater miracle than what was seen at Fatima, Loudes, or even the physical miracles wrought by Christ while He was here on Earth.

 

[Albion]

Yes I do believe God's miracles still happen and daily. Fatima is "an" example of God's work and not "the" example of God's work.

So what's so special about it? What changed because of it?

 

[Dorothea]

Yes I do believe God's miracles still happen and daily. Fatima is "an" example of God's work and not "the" example of God's work.

In all reality I have believed and teach my kids that every time we go to mass we see a miracle happen. Every time we go to mass on Easter Vigil and see those men and women getting baptized and confirmed we see miracles. Every time a Sacrament occurs there is a miracle happening. Greater miracles happen that we cannot see than those that we see. For example the poor man in the gospels that was sick with palsy. Which miracle was the greater: the miracle of God forgiving this man his sins or the miracle of God healing that man of Palsy? I say it is the forgiveness of his sins. I would take that miracle every day over being healed of one of my physical afflictions.

But don't forget dear sister that every time you celebrate the Divine Liturgy and Confession or any other of the 7 Sacraments you experience an even greater miracle than what was seen at Fatima, Loudes, or even the physical miracles wrought by Christ while He was here on Earth.

 

[Erose]

That's all true, but IMO it doesn't establish anything conclusively. It is common for different witnesses to any unusual event to describe what they saw in quite different ways.

Nothing is ever established without a doubt, especially something like miracles. You will never have a miracle that cannot be doubted by someone. The Pharisees seen the miracles of Jesus Christ and either doubted them or accused that Jesus was working them through the devil. All I can go off of myself is evidence and fruits.

For me if there is enough evidence that a rational person can conclude that something unique happened and that much positive fruit comes then I can safely say that something unique did happen whether it was miraculous or not.

For example, if someone dies and is brought back to life through even normal means and that person believes he had an afterlife vision and that vision leads that person to have a greater relationship with Jesus Christ than what he had before, then something special happened and fruit came from it. That is just the way I see it.

I was not at Fatima or at Loudes. I did not have a personal vision of Mary or Jesus or whoever else that lives in heaven. I did not see the miracle of the sun. But I do see that it has positively effected other peoples lives. It has given some people a greater impression of the divine working in this world. I know that there are people that either converted to Christianity or returned to Christianity from these appearances and I know that some miracles have occurred that have boosted other Christian's faith. From this data and other information I have received, why should I worry about doubting that something miraculous did happen? But on the flip side I also know that one isn't ignorant or blind or whatever else you want to add here for not believing that something miraculous did happen and neither does the Church. That is the reason why the Church does not mandate that Catholics in good standing must believe in these appearances.

Let's say that these are genuine. Then there are many more that are believed in by the more devout (or superstitious) among us which are not genuine. That aside, we started this by inquiring into the importance of the "miracle." I asked what exactly was that miracle? To me, the consequences of Fatima or Lourdes is negligible. There haven't even been many healings at Lourdes--as the RCC itself has certified. Probablyh no more than mere faith would bring. Certainly not necessarily a miracle and nothing that has particularly moved the rest of Christendom.

From the Wiki article it is documented that at least 68 occurances of healing have occured at Loudes that cannot be explained off by science. 68 is a pretty good number in my opinion of miracles occurring in one place within a timespan of 150 years. And these are just the ones that Science cannot effectively explain. I still find that pretty impressive.

It's been theorized that such miracles, assuming them to be real, occur to Catholics and not the rest of us because Catholics need them in order to believe.

If I could be insulted I may find this to be so. Have you ever thought that miracles occur to Catholics because they believe that God still does miracles in this world? If you live in the supernatural, you should expect that every once in a while you would experience a supernatural event or experience.

I also think that it would be a stretch and to a certain point possibly even insulting to claim that Christians that are not Catholic do not experience miraculous events. I know that when I was a Pentecostal we where very cognizant of the supernatural.

Those same people feel that way when visiting the Vatican or any great shrine, even without any apparitions or miracles.

Yes you are correct, but that just supports the point that God can be experienced in more than one place and that there are many places like Fatima, where one with an open heart can experience God.

Why would you think that a flashy public miracle is the only kind of miracle? I believe that God cures cancer, restores marriages, and brings people back from addiction--all of which are miracles.

Never claimed what you have said that I claim. In reality the greatest of all miracles can be found within the 7 Sacraments. These are the true miracles and greatest of all miracles. I would take the healing of confession over being physically healed, or the Holy Eucharist than the multiplication of loaves, or washing in the lavers of Baptism over the miraculous waters of Loudes.

 

[Erose]

So what's so special about it? What changed because of it?

For you nothing. But for those who were there possibly everything about it.

 

[Albion]

For me if there is enough evidence that a rational person can conclude that something unique happened and that much positive fruit comes

I've already agree with that. Those things are not the issue. Whether or not these were miracles is. And, BTW, do you really want to say that the fruits prove a miracle? If so, get ready for all the other events in history that don't involve Catholics but did inspire and motivate the Christians who were caught up in them.

From the Wiki article it is documented that at least 68 occurances of healing have occured at Loudes that cannot be explained off by science. 68 is a pretty good number in my opinion of miracles occurring in one place within a timespan of 150 years.

You really, really think so, considering that MILLIONS of people have gone there for the water, hoping for a miracle? 68?

Have you ever thought that miracles occur to Catholics because they believe that God still does miracles in this world?

No because all Christians believe in miracles; it's just that most don't look for the big light shows and roses blooming in the snow.

 

[Albion]

For you nothing.

By saying this, you mean that the only miracle was something working in the heart and soul of the one who believed it was a real apparition? Not a miracle in an objective sense. I can accept that.

 

[Erose]

I've already agree with that. Those things are not the issue. Whether or not these were miracles is. And, BTW, do you really want to say that the fruits prove a miracle? If so, get ready for all the other events in history that don't involve Catholics but did inspire and motivate the Christians who were caught up in them.

I'm not saying the fruits prove the miracle. What I am using is the method of discernment that Christ left us and that is the fruit tells us from whom the miracle came from. Is it the work of God or Satan? The fruits tell us from where.

You really, really think so, considering that MILLIONS of people have gone there for the water, hoping for a miracle? 68?

68 that were proven without a doubt something unexplainable happened. This 68 does not include all the other "miracles" that may have happened that an explanation can be provided no matter how far fetch it is. For example a person that was ate up with cancer going to the pool and afterwards the cancer went into remission. That person would view this as a miracle and so would most other people. But science would say that it is a possibility that there is a perfectly natural answer why that cancer went into remission. 68 of those scrutinized were found to have absolutely no natural explanation.

No because all Christians believe in miracles; it's just that most don't look for the big light shows and roses blooming in the snow.

Now you are just belittling the faith of those that were at Fatima.

 

[Albion]

I'm not saying the fruits prove the miracle. What I am using is the method of discernment that Christ left us and that is the fruit tells us from whom the miracle came from. Is it the work of God or Satan? The fruits tell us from where.

Sounds like the same thing. What else are the fruits supposed to prove except the legitimacy of the alleged miracle?

68 that were proven without a doubt something unexplainable happened.

So they aren't even necessarily miracles, just that there is no explanation.

This 68 does not include all the other "miracles" that may have happened that an explanation can be provided no matter how far fetch it is. For example a person that was ate up with cancer going to the pool and afterwards the cancer went into remission. That person would view this as a miracle and so would most other people. But science would say that it is a possibility that there is a perfectly natural answer why that cancer went into remission. 68 of those scrutinized were found to have absolutely no natural explanation.

OK, 68 at best. i really don't consider that astounding (or proof of anything) out of a total of millions who wanted a healing. I'm back again wondering what's the big deal. Why, IOW, would the Virgin appear (that's impressive in itself, if true) to accomplish almost nothing?

Now you are just belittling the faith of those that were at Fatima.

I don't think so. Are you unable to discuss this with someone who has doubts? Those were legitimate examples, by the way, not something pulled out of my imagination.

 

[Erose]

By saying this, you mean that the only miracle was something working in the heart and soul of the one who believed it was a real apparition? Not a miracle in an objective sense. I can accept that.

I think that either we are speaking different languages or the point of views we are coming from are just too different.

No what I was saying is that since you (and I) were not there and have never been to Fatima (making an assumption about where you have been). So for us nothing special happened for we didn't experience anything because we were not there. If we would have been there and experienced something then the event would have been special to us possibly.

Look Albion you can doubt what happened there that is your prerogative. Like I said even Catholics are not mandated to believe in the events of Fatima. But I would like to point out that all of the arguments you have proposed can be said about the miracles of Christ. It is for you to decide from the information about the event to determine whether or not something happened at Fatima that was miraculous.

You ask can I prove something miraculous happened at Fatima? No, I can't. But the truth of the matter is I can't prove to you that the Red Sea parted or that Jesus healed people or walked on water. I can't prove any of these things to you. For proof of these latter events all I have is the Bible, which was written by believers and I have no other proof than that. With Fatima in all honesty we have more evidence for than the miracles found in the Bible for not just believers seen the miracle of the dancing sun, but non-believers as well.

 

[Albion]

I think that either we are speaking different languages or the point of views we are coming from are just too different.

No what I was saying is that since you (and I) were not there and have never been to Fatima (making an assumption about where you have been). So for us nothing special happened for we didn't experience anything because we were not there. If we would have been there and experienced something then the event would have been special to us possibly.

That's a curious approach IMO. I am more than willing to accept all the hard evidence that exists about these supposed apparitions. It's not that I reject the events out of hand and certainly not because I wasn't an eyewitness.

Look Albion you can doubt what happened there that is your prerogative. Like I said even Catholics are not mandated to believe in the events of Fatima. But I would like to point out that all of the arguments you have proposed can be said about the miracles of Christ.

Not really. If you consider the evidence for the Bible, it swamps the almost non-existent evidence that these Marian events were more than some optical oddity. Of course, there is the possibility that the Bible accounts about Jesus' miracles are apocryphal, but the matter has been studied so much that there is a very high probability that they are genuine, even if one is not a Christian himself.

And that brings me back to a basic question here--what did the miracles of Fatima accomplish? We normally think that if a miracle happens, it's for a purpose since God has suspended the natural laws of the universe. In the case of Jesus' miracles, of course, we know their importance.