She lied about her virginity,he's devasted

[NoodlesNoodlesNoodles]

Look, sorry Shari, I don't have anything against people here personally, but its the conclusions I have more a problem with and how people came up with that. Noodles, it isn't personal man., sorry, but I don't think that God okays vows built on fraud/misrepresentation.

Woops, I just posted my big response and then saw this. I didn't take it personally at all. Not to worry.

 

[Stravinsk]

They would say yes take him back, lol. That's because some people here are so overspiritualized that they believe God wants them to check their brain at the door.

About that post you quoted - notice how no one who isn't defending Tim is willing to answer the question?

 

[Tamara224]

There's no difference that is relevant to the question, because my question doesn't pertain to either's past.

Yes, the difference is entirely relevant. That you gloss over my explanation as to how and why only to reiterate your first point is telling.

It pertains to the lie in the present. You stuck up for her in her lying, because you believe she was afraid he would reject her, and the problem isn't that she lied, but that his attitude was such that she felt she had to.

No, I didn't say she "had" to. I said that her lie was understandable because it's what HUMANS do in such situations.

I'm just turning the tables here.

No, you're not. Turning the tables would be the exact same situation with the genders reversed.

You've created a different situation, falsely equated the two, and then pretended like all you've done is "turned the tables."

In fact, the motivation for lying about actions in one's past (i.e. is not a virgin) is not the same as the motivation for lying about one's ongoing behavior problems (i.e. is an abuser). One lies about things that are over and done with - forgiven - out of fear of (unjust) condemnation. One lies about things that are ongoing sins in one's present out of a knowledge that the behavior is wrong and an unwillingness to stop or be held accountable for the behavior.

If a man lied to you about berating his mother (or anything else which he would be pretty sure you would reject him for), is he the bad guy for lying, or are you the bad girl for your attitude which would make him afraid that you would reject him, thus motivating his lie?

He wouldn't be a bad guy for lying about his past. He'd be a bad guy for being a misogynistic a-hat in the present. I wouldn't leave such a jerk because he lied about it! I'd leave him because he abused me.

This is not difficult to understand.

The difference between the two scenarios is so ridiculously obvious that, IMHO, one would have to be deliberately obtuse not to get it.

I mean, for crying out loud, can you imagine a scenario in which an abusive, misogynist says to his wife on their honeymoon "Darling, I know that before we were married I told you I was always nice to my mother, but the truth is that I berate her and yell at her all the time. And, furthermore, I'm going to commence berating and yelling at you now, too. I didn't tell you because I was afraid you wouldn't marry me if you knew."

Darn right she wouldn't have married you if you had told her what a jerk-weed you are.


But that's not even close to the same thing as finding out your wife wasn't actually a virgin on your wedding night.

Unless, of course, you think that the sexual 'sins' of your wife's past are tainting her in the present.

 

[Hadassah_]

Unless, of course, you think that the sexual 'sins' of your wife's past are tainting her in the present.

And that my dear, is the crux of the discussion.

 

[r035198x]

Do we know if the girl is going to lie again about other things?
For me an honest person who was into, say, prostitution is better than a presently lying virgin.

 

[MissElizabeth]

WOW, that is totally wrong!!! how could he ever trust her again?? it would take a life time. but he married her for a reason..... he loved her. i dunno, very complicated, but i really hope they can figure it out!

 

[Stravinsk]

And that my dear, is the crux of the discussion.

Really - it isn't - not for me. Keri, Miles, GQ, myself and a few others have said it's a trust issue.

The person I married (I am a widower) was not a virgin, and neither was I. She had had more partners than me and this was not a problem to me.

If, however - she had lied about it because she thought that a virgin is what I wanted - then that would be important to me. It's a *character* issue, not a sexual one.

Now I understand that when you are getting to know someone trust is earned and it's not wise to spill your deep dark secrets to just anyone lest they betray that trust. However - there comes a point when that step has to be taken - because your marriage partner is the person that will be closest to you, the person who accepts you for who you are - past and all - and the person who, to a large extent, you put the trust of your life into - as they do you.

This again is a character issue - not a sexual one. It's the lie and pretense that makes it bad from my perspective.

 

[Tamara224]

And that my dear, is the crux of the discussion.

Exactly.

 

[Tamara224]

Really - it isn't - not for me. Keri, Miles, GQ, myself and a few others have said it's a trust issue.

The person I married (I am a widower) was not a virgin, and neither was I. She had had more partners than me and this was not a problem to me.

If, however - she had lied about it because she thought that a virgin is what I wanted - then that would be important to me. It's a *character* issue, not a sexual one.

Yeah, but she would feel no desire to lie to you about it if you don't think it's a big deal.

Now I understand that when you are getting to know someone trust is earned and it's not wise to spill your deep dark secrets to just anyone lest they betray that trust. However - there comes a point when that step has to be taken - because your marriage partner is the person that will be closest to you, the person who accepts you for who you are - past and all - and the person who, to a large extent, you put the trust of your life into - as they do you.

This again is a character issue - not a sexual one. It's the lie and pretense that makes it bad from my perspective.

Doesn't all this depend on that crucial bit of info that the OP has yet to provide, despite several requests?

I mean, if wife is the one who confessed it - a week or so into the marriage - doesn't that imply that she was trying to open up about it?

And we can all see how well that worked for her. Now that she confessed to lying about this one thing she is accused of being completely untrustworthy in all things and for all times, manipulative, promiscuous, damaged goods, a used car, etc, etc, etc.

For this woman that point came - that point when she had to choose to trust her man to stand by her side, forgive her and keep loving her after she revealed her dirty little secret. She probably thought that now that he had promised to love and cleave to her and stick with her "for better or for worse" that it was safe to trust him and tell him.


And he betrayed that trust the moment she extended it to him.

 

[Blank123]

Look, sorry Shari, I don't have anything against people here personally, but its the conclusions I have more a problem with and how people came up with that.

Fair enough, its just the way you raised your objections that bothered me. talking out why you disagreed is a much more fruitful way to discuss it

 

[Stravinsk]

Yeah, but she would feel no desire to lie to you about it if you don't think it's a big deal.

And you're assuming she knew ahead of time what my reaction would be. She didn't. I was, in fact, a little taken aback at some things she told me - but I did respect her for that courage, trusting me and being honest about it. It showed a lot of character.

Doesn't all this depend on that crucial bit of info that the OP has yet to provide, despite several requests?

I mean, if wife is the one who confessed it - a week or so into the marriage - doesn't that imply that she was trying to open up about it?

And we can all see how well that worked for her. Now that she confessed to lying about this one thing she is accused of being completely untrustworthy in all things and for all times, manipulative, promiscuous, damaged goods, a used car, etc, etc, etc.

For this woman that point came - that point when she had to choose to trust her man to stand by her side, forgive her and keep loving her after she revealed her dirty little secret. She probably thought that now that he had promised to love and cleave to her and stick with her "for better or for worse" that it was safe to trust him and tell him.


And he betrayed that trust the moment she extended it to him.

The point is, Tamara - that if she *knew* already that this was important to him - she should have come clean before taking steps towards marriage.

In the end, that would have saved both of them a lot of pain and wasted time.

And guess what - had she been honest and open and had the courage to tell him - even if it was important to him - instead of LYING about it until after wedding vows - then he might well have married her anyway. Instead what does he feel? Betrayed and trapped by someone with questionable character.

 

[LadyOfMystery]

Mod Hat On

Okay guys, I've posted two mod hats here reminding you of the rules. The next time there is a flame in this thread I'm closing it permanently. Remain on topic of the thread. I know you guys get passionate about your opinions but there is no excuse to flame someone else for having a different opinion no matter how you feel about it.
Last warning.

Mod Hat Off

 

[ldove789]

Remember Who we serve guys. Even if you feel like you have to reprimand someone, do it in love and gentleness.

 

[barefeetonholyground]

Isn't it valid because they pledged to be together "'till death do we part" ?

It's a horrible situation that he's in, yes, but that's his wife.
His wife!

"I hate divorce," says the LORD God of Israel (Malachi 2:16).

What God has joined together, let man not separate . . . I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery (Matthew 19:6, 9).

Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her. And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery (Mark 10:11-12).

This right here.
What Sue did was horrible but Tim has two options: kill the marriage or put that sin on the cross where Jesus died for that sin. Punishing Sue when Jesus already was punished for that sin would be unjust.
Remember: Jesus died to restore our relationships with the Father by killing sin. We don't only sin against God but against one another as well.
The same principle should apply here. Jesus also died to restore our relationships with one another when we sin against one another.

 

[Hadassah_]

Really - it isn't - not for me. Keri, Miles, GQ, myself and a few others have said it's a trust issue.

The person I married (I am a widower) was not a virgin, and neither was I. She had had more partners than me and this was not a problem to me.

If, however - she had lied about it because she thought that a virgin is what I wanted - then that would be important to me. It's a *character* issue, not a sexual one.

Now I understand that when you are getting to know someone trust is earned and it's not wise to spill your deep dark secrets to just anyone lest they betray that trust. However - there comes a point when that step has to be taken - because your marriage partner is the person that will be closest to you, the person who accepts you for who you are - past and all - and the person who, to a large extent, you put the trust of your life into - as they do you.

This again is a character issue - not a sexual one. It's the lie and pretense that makes it bad from my perspective.

It may not be for you or most of us here, but it is for Tim and that is what I was getting at.

I just can't imagine wanting to marry someone who disapproved of a part of my life so vehemently that I felt I had to lie to him to get his acceptance. My next husband is going to accept everything about me or else I won't marry him.

 

[GQ Chris]

About that post you quoted - notice how no one who isn't defending Tim is willing to answer the question?

Yeah. Well its obvious that some people are biased because it is the woman who lied, I wonder if it were the other way around would they still give the person a pass.

My issue is with the lie, not the mileage, lol. And if it were reversed, and it was the guy who lied, I would feel exactly the same way, she's not obligated biblically to stay with him. She misrepresented, nulled her contract, its like an underage person trying to get the loan to buy a house, it would render the contract void.

 

[MacFall]

Now they won't be able to trust each other.

What you are saying here is that neither of them will follow Christ in forgiving the other. Christ allowed Himself to be tortured and murdered for us - and people are defending a man's decision to abandon a woman who hurt him in a way that doesn't even come close to that!

 

[MacFall]

I assume that you're also perfectly happy for someone to do this to you.

Happy? No. Understanding? Yes.

And when they do - you'll just 'forgive' them too.

Of course I would. I can do no other than to forgive as Christ has forgiven me. He does not cast me out despite my constant failures, including dishonesty. Apparently, you would have me spit in His face and violate His commandment to do likewise.

And everything will be alright.

By God's grace, yes it will.

 

[Blank123]

What you are saying here is that neither of them will follow Christ in forgiving the other. Christ allowed Himself to be tortured and murdered for us - and people are defending a man's decision to abandon a woman who hurt him in a way that doesn't even come close to that!

Marriages have broken up over much more serious matters and God worked powerfully to restore those relationships, leading both people to reconciliation and forgiveness. Nothing is impossible for God.

If there is any chance at all for reconciliation, they need to put aside pride and be willing to work towards earning trust and learning to trust. They would need all the support in the world. Not encouragement to end it. If God hates divorce, I believe we must share His heart on the matter.

 

[MacFall]

We can argue all day long about whether it's right for Tim to want to marry a fellow virgin, but at least he was honest.

That's not the question. Nor is the question whether he had a right to leave. Even if he did, he has a clear obligation to forgive which frankly trumps every last one of his rights. God has the right to damn every one of us. But He does not. He forgives us. Christ had the right to rise up and destroy His murderers. But He did not - He forgave them. Are we or are we not followers of Christ?

I agree that forgiveness does not necessarily preclude discontinuing a relationship. But a relationship should never be ended over an offense, no matter how grievous the offense. It should only be ended when it is clearly better for the spiritual welfare of both parties that it should end, as in cases wherein one party is an unrepentant abuser. But repentance changes everything. Therefore I repeat my original post: if she was repentant, then he has an obligation as a follower of Christ to forgive her and to work with her towards the restoration of trust, regardless of whether or not he has the "right" to divorce her.

And I hope nobody here will pretend that they have not had to be confronted with sin about which they had lied, in order to be led into repentance in their own lives. We all do that. Even if we never speak the lie out loud. We lie to ourselves and from God, even though He already knows about our sin, rather than face it. So the woman in this scenario lied about her sin. Conclusion: she is human. Tim should forgive his fellow fallen creature as his Most High God has forgiven him.