Who believes this to be true: The Torah is not for Gentiles

[dodari]

There is a big problem here for us Gentiles.

Ok, those who say, the "law is written on our hearts", quoting out of Jeremiah 31, also seem to think that the new Covenant, has not began yet, and the New Covenant is only for Israel and Judah. So how can they use a verse, out of a Covenant, that they say is not for Gentiles, to uphold Mosaic law for Gentiles?

Then the other problem arises.

If the full Mosaic law is written on the heart of the Gentile, that would force him to have to comply externally with what is internally written because the two have to become one, whereby forcing Gentiles to become Jewish, which goes against new Testament theology.

Seems strange.

Many gentile MJs here are not the slightest bit confused about the Renewed Covenant coming into completion having already been commenced but not yet fully consumated into concretion, as far as we mere humans are concerned.

I'm sure someone will be along soon to help dispel your confusion.

 

[Jerushabelle]

We are all one in Messiah.

Therefore, we should all follow one law.



This is shown in Torah:

How are we going to try and emulate Yeshuah, if we don't follow Torah?

That is just ludicrous.

Did He not say " . . . Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven?"

I will choose to follow what YHWH says over what man says.

YUPPERS!!!

 

[rsduncan]

Here is an interesting opinion:

Teaching Torah to Non Jews! - YouTube

...

 

[Seeking Him]

If the New Covenant is stated to be for only Judah and Israel, then that means it is for those two. You have to be one or the other, else his laws will not be written upon you.

Simple.

But that's what I mean. Those who say it is for Judah and Israel, also quote the "written on the hearts" verse to Gentiles, all the while they say the New Covenant is not for Gentiles, and the cov has not begun yet. Everyone does not do this, but a fair amount do. SH.

 

[Seeking Him]

Many gentile MJs here are not the slightest bit confused about the Renewed Covenant coming into completion having already been commenced but not yet fully consumated into concretion, as far as we mere humans are concerned.

I'm sure someone will be along soon to help dispel your confusion.

Hi, I'm not confused, I'm just showing an issue here. If it were a renewed covenant, then all the exact same rules would be renewed, which would bind all the Mosaic laws on Gentiles, and that would go against the council of Acts 15, and NT theology. SH.

 

[visionary]

Bottom line is.. does Jews have exclusivity or is the truth inclusive for all nations?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Bottom line is.. does Jews have exclusivity or is the truth inclusive for all nations?

Isn't that why our brother Paul was sent by Jesus?

Acts 9:15 Said yet the Lord toward him, "be thou going! that a vessel of-choice is to Me this one, of the to bear the Name of Me before nations and kings, and sons of Israel".

Acts 13:46 Being bold yet Paul and Barnabas said "to ye it was necessary first to be spoken the Word of the God.
Since ye are thrusting away it and not worthy judging yeselves of the age-abiding life, behold! we are turning into the Nations".

 

[Lulav]

Originally Posted by Lulav

I don't understand this kind of reasoning. It doesn't match up with the definition of the new covenant if that is what you are speaking of and I think you must be. The written law will stand, just as Yeshua said it would until all things be fulfilled, which are far from done. We still don't understand all that the Torah contains, let alone having it done already. The New Covenant states:

“This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the LORD.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.

Yes, I said that if you read my original post on this, and not just the summary (although it appears, there, too). As we study the law he will cause it to be written on our hearts, as he says in your quote, because we will be entirely open to it. Instead we have tried to ignore what he wishes us to study and, by extension, we have made his law a thing to be followed slavishly instead of willingly as our very lifeblood and joy.
Where did Yeshua say the written law would remain until everything is done? And I did not say it would cease to be, in any case.

The same as when He took us out of Egypt, he promises what He will do. This is not something we do, but allow Him to do.

Also the Torah does not bring death, the disobedience to it does.

Scripture does make this point





This conclusion makes G-d someone who can't get it right the first time, and one who changes his mind, as well as one who didn't know what would happen once he handed down his instructions. This belittles G-d. Following G-ds laws were to follow the right way to be his children. Nothing slavish about it, the problem came when it wasn't done out of love and that is why Yeshua said the greatest commandment was not one of the 10 but the Shema, To Love the L-RD with all your heart, strength and soul and then to love your neighbor as yourself. This is what it's all about, LOVE.

That is not what I said if you read it properly.
Sh'ma is the total aim of having the law engraved or embedded in our heart - we could do no other, as I have said already.
If you had his law in your heart and you allwed it to rule your life in all its fullness you would love him - don't see a problem with that.

Yeshua did not set us free from being obedient, he came to show how to be obedient with love. His love for his father made him do what he did. He was here to serve, not to do his own thing, nor to teach others to be free and do their own thing. He put up with everything he did because that is what the Father wanted from him, that was his purpose.

Neither did I say this if you read my whole argument and not just the brief summary



Yet you mention nothing about what Yeshua preached most on, Repentance. Turning away from your own will and following that of the Father.
​

Ah, we do have a role to play! Repentance was implied in the bit about grace; I was not writing a systematic theology paper! I was making the point that if the law is truly written on our hearts as being the way we live etc, as it was meant to be, then acts of repentance are going to be few and far between, as inferred in what I said when I wrote that the law will be life - we will know no other way of living.

Why have you twisted just about everything I have said? Can you not read plain English? Last edited by Avodat; 9th December 2011 at 04:12 PM.

My reading skills are quite advanced, though on occasion due to age I may mis-read something, but I think I read what you posted just fine. And you proved it by repeating exactly what I thought you said.

Yes, I said that if you read my original post on this, and not just the summary (although it appears, there, too). As we study the law he will cause it to be written on our hearts, as he says in your quote, because we will be entirely open to it.

There is nothing in the scripture I posted or anywhere else I am aware of that says this. He never said that through study he will cause it to be written on our hearts, that is something that only someone with a new acquaintance with Torah would think. When the Torah was given it was spoken to the people. It was Oral. There was no studying, the tablets were put inside the Ark and the rest was put on the outside of the ark. The people did not have a copy to read and study.

This went on for hundreds of years to the point where it was lost to Israel. Only when rebuilding the Temple was the Torah found again. It was then read in the hearing of the people and they realized how far from Torah they were and they mourned for this.

This is what HaShem means when he says:

Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt

That was the word given to be heard and obeyed, but it could be forgotten. This new covenant is one where it is not external but internal, not by us doing it by the written word, but by his gift alone. It is there so we can't go the wrong way. That is why he says:

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying , Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

No more teaching, no more learning, it is hard wired.

Yeshua saidMatt 5:18)

For verily I say unto you, Until the heaven and the earth pass away, one iota or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law till all come to pass.

and

Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my word shall not pass away.

The law will not pass away until the heaven and earth pass away, and even when the heaven and earth pass away, his words live on.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I think of Jonah... I think of Solomon and the Queen of Sheba visit..

Me too

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Matt 12:41 `Men, Ninevites shall be resurrecting/ana-sthsontai <450> (5698) in the judging with the generation, this, and they shall be condemning it
That they reform into the proclamation of Jonah and behold! more of Jonah here.

Matt 12:42 `A Queen of the south shall be being aroused/egerqhsetai <1453> (5701) in the judging with the generation, this, and shall be condemning it
That she came out of the ends of the land to hear the wisdom of Solomon and behold! more of Solomon here!

http://www.christianforums.com/t5617198/
She who sits as queen, not widow, never mourns

 

[Lulav]

I think this thread was made for the MJ's and regulars to whom this question matters based on the restructuring of the forums. This is because some Messianics believe the Torah to be only for Jews, and other Messianics believe it to be for all.

 

[Lulav]

But that's what I mean. Those who say it is for Judah and Israel, also quote the "written on the hearts" verse to Gentiles, all the while they say the New Covenant is not for Gentiles, and the cov has not begun yet. Everyone does not do this, but a fair amount do. SH.

Yes the New Covenant G-d is making is, as He himself stated, for Judah and Israel. If anyone writes contrary to this they are changing his word, this is the basis of what we need to review the newer material. The only New Covenant mentioned was for Judah and Israel and these laws will be written by G-d upon those hearts. This cannot be changed, therefore those who are part of this covenant must be either Jews or Israel.

As we see in Revelation, the foundations of the temple are named for the twelve tribes of Israel. There is nothing named for the nations.

Some people had/have different ideas about what and who the New Covenant was for but that doesn't make them all correct.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I think this thread was made for the MJ's and regulars to whom this question matters based on the restructuring of the forums.
This is because some Messianics believe the Torah to be only for Jews, and other Messianics believe it to be for all.

I noticed that.

 

[Avodat]

My reading skills are quite advanced, though on occasion due to age I may mis-read something, but I think I read what you posted just fine. And you proved it by repeating exactly what I thought you said.



There is nothing in the scripture I posted or anywhere else I am aware of that says this. He never said that through study he will cause it to be written on our hearts, that is something that only someone with a new acquaintance with Torah would think. When the Torah was given it was spoken to the people. It was Oral. There was no studying, the tablets were put inside the Ark and the rest was put on the outside of the ark. The people did not have a copy to read and study.

Have you read Psalm 119? 'Teach me your laws...it is my study all day long...I have gained more insight than my teachers...I ponder your precepts...etc etc. Torah being learned and studied, taught to the people.

This went on for hundreds of years to the point where it was lost to Israel. Only when rebuilding the Temple was the Torah found again. It was then read in the hearing of the people and they realized how far from Torah they were and they mourned for this.

I could have sworn Moses said that all he taught was not in the heavens, nor in the seas etc,. but it was in their mouths and hearts. This was, almost certainly, before the Temple was built! I was equally sure Ezekiel was given a scroll to eat to ensure that the message he gave was exactly what G_d said.

This is what HaShem means when he says:


That was the word given to be heard and obeyed, but it could be forgotten. This new covenant is one where it is not external but internal, not by us doing it by the written word, but by his gift alone. It is there so we can't go the wrong way. That is why he says:



No more teaching, no more learning, it is hard wired.

Are you really saying G_d said the above 6 or so lines? Where?

Yep, just what I said, except I was thinking more of Jeremiah 31

Yeshua saidMatt 5:18)



and



The law will not pass away until the heaven and earth pass away, and even when the heaven and earth pass away, his words live on.

Yep, just what I said (but you said it was the written word that that he spoke about - you haven't clarified where he says that). The passage you quote does not refer to the written word specifically - in other words G_d will not vary the letter in what He has said, not just in what man has written. What is written on our hearts will not change.

 

[Avodat]

Yes the New Covenant G-d is making is, as He himself stated, for Judah and Israel. If anyone writes contrary to this they are changing his word, this is the basis of what we need to review the newer material. The only New Covenant mentioned was for Judah and Israel and these laws will be written by G-d upon those hearts. This cannot be changed, therefore those who are part of this covenant must be either Jews or Israel.

I agree, I have said for years that his birth was meant for the Jews, not the gentiles; it was hi-jacked by 'the Church' of the time. The gentiles have Epiphany (the presentation of The Word - Yeshua - to the Gentiles). Apart from, possibly, the 'inn-keeper', all those involved in Yeshua's birth were Jews, or angels. Romans 1 & 2 remind us that G_d's way of doing things is first for the Jew, then for the gentile, so it was with his birth.

As we see in Revelation, the foundations of the temple are named for the twelve tribes of Israel. There is nothing named for the nations.

No, but many will come from the nations to worship G_d. Gentiles are not excluded in Scripture - why/how should Jews be light and salt to the world if not to teach them G_d's word?

Some people had/have different ideas about what and who the New Covenant was for but that doesn't make them all correct.

..

 

[GuardianShua]

God's [Torah] teaching us through His Laws, so therfore it is for everyone.

 

[visionary]

The Kingdom of God comes about when we dedicate ourselves to the dominion and will of God. What does God ask of us [humans]? He has set for us a high standard that we may be brought to perfection in the Messiah. Yeshua did not come to weaken the Torah: for me this is a major facet of the Good News. If we have in front of ourselves a primary objective to meet the standards for being in communion with [you name it], then we are aiming in the wrong direction.

 

[Avodat]

The Kingdom of God comes about when we dedicate ourselves to the dominion and will of God. What does God ask of us [humans]? He has set for us a high standard that we may be brought to perfection in the Messiah. Yeshua did not come to weaken the Torah: for me this is a major facet of the Good News. If we have in front of ourselves a primary objective to meet the standards for being in communion with, then we are aiming in the wrong direction.

I don't think anyone is saying that - quite the opposite, in fact.

 

[visionary]

I'm saying that the MJ movement is incompatible with the traditions stemming from paganism in which [you name it] is steeped. This is one of the main objectives of the MJ movement: stripping back erroneous/unscriptural traditions. If that requires us to be incompatible with a great majority, then so be it... Yeahhhh Torah.. May it continue to be our primary book of instruction.

 

[Seeking Him]

Yes the New Covenant G-d is making is, as He himself stated, for Judah and Israel. If anyone writes contrary to this they are changing his word, this is the basis of what we need to review the newer material. The only New Covenant mentioned was for Judah and Israel and these laws will be written by G-d upon those hearts. This cannot be changed, therefore those who are part of this covenant must be either Jews or Israel.

As we see in Revelation, the foundations of the temple are named for the twelve tribes of Israel. There is nothing named for the nations.

Some people had/have different ideas about what and who the New Covenant was for but that doesn't make them all correct.

Ok, what I mean is this. Would you quote the part about God writing the law on human hearts, to Gentiles, using that New Covenant verse? SH.

 

[yedida]

Ok, what I mean is this. Would you quote the part about God writing the law on human hearts, to Gentiles, using that New Covenant verse? SH.

Not as a stand alone. But as a continuation of God's promises, indeed, I would. For without it you can't really move forward in God's plan for mankind.