Who believes this to be true: The Torah is not for Gentiles

[jcpro]

Did Yeshua make a distinction when he walked this earth? I think not.

He did according to Matt 15:24, but that's not the point. The point is Jews were told to observe Torah forever. And Torah was given specifically to us(Jews). We were told by G-d Himself to obey and follow His Law. So, is the Torah for the Gentiles? Sure, if they follow it like we do.

 

[Avodat]

He did according to Matt 15:24, but that's not the point. The point is Jews were told to observe Torah forever. And Torah was given specifically to us(Jews). We were told by G-d Himself to obey and follow His Law. So, is the Torah for the Gentiles? Sure, if they follow it like we do.

I don't understand your response or your reference to Matt.15. I have not said anything that might imply that Jews were not expected to follow Torah - I've actually said precisely the opposite: that all have not understood his word on following his teaching (teachings). His clear teaching was that Torah should be in your heart and so you will always obey it (see what Moses says about this, and Ezekiel) and you will converse with each other on the life it brings, but it was turned into the means of death by a refusal to allow it to rule our lives, as he wanted it to be, and to make it a light to the gentiles in the same manner (Isaiah). Your reference to Matt 15 shows Yeshua making a play on how Gentiles were left out and treated as nothing, gathering what they could of salvation through Yeshua from the left overs, whilst the lost sheep of Israel ate freely of the banquet - a parable he used in other ways in other places.

 

[jcpro]

I don't understand your response or your reference to Matt.15. I have not said anything that might imply that Jews were not expected to follow Torah - I've actually said precisely the opposite: that all have not understood his word on following his teaching (teachings). His clear teaching was that Torah should be in your heart and so you will always obey it and you will converse with each other on the life it brings, but it was turned into the means of death by a refusal to allow it to rule our lives, as he wanted it to be, and to make it a light to the gentiles in the same manner. Your reference to Matt 15 shows Yeshua making a play on how Gentiles were left out and treated as nothing, gathering what they could of salvation through Yeshua from the left overs, whilst the lost sheep of Israel ate freely of the banquet - a parable he used in other ways in other places.

Just pointing out that Jesus the Jew made the same distinction I'm making between Torah observant people(Jews) and non observant(Gentiles). Of course I would not go with the dogs and crumbs thing

 

[rsduncan]

If the moral law is for all, but Torah is only for Jews, how would a non-Jew learn the moral law apart from Torah? Osmosis? From where do e.g. the Noachide Laws eminate if not Torah and Talmud???

 

[yedida]

Just pointing out that Jesus the Jew made the same distinction I'm making between Torah observant people(Jews) and non observant(Gentiles). Of course I would not go with the dogs and crumbs thing

We cannot help it if the Israelites didn't do what Hashem told them to do, i.e., bring the light of Torah to the nations. We had to wait till the Son came and opened the way for us, to know God, know His ways and His grace and salvation. Slowly but very surely God is leading more and more gentiles to the liberty that is Torah.

 

[Lulav]

We cannot help it if the Israelites didn't do what Hashem told them to do, i.e., bring the light of Torah to the nations. We had to wait till the Son came and opened the way for us, to know God, know His ways and His grace and salvation. Slowly but very surely God is leading more and more gentiles to the liberty that is Torah.

I'm sorry I can't agree with that completely. Sure much of our dirty laundry was written down for all the world to see, eventually. But if it's true that the light was not brought to the nations, then how is it that there are converts mentioned?

Such as Rahab, there are questions about Jethro and his family took as well, The Queen of Sheba, and a better example, of Ruth. There were also many in the diaspora, written about in Esther that converted.

As far as when Yeshua came, there were many proselytes at the time.

Sooooooooooooooo Gentiles did not 'have to wait' if this were true then this would make G-d unfair, to not allow you to know who he is, for 4,000 years or more.

 

[yedida]

I'm sorry I can't agree with that completely. Sure much of our dirty laundry was written down for all the world to see, eventually. But if it's true that the light was not brought to the nations, then how is it that there are converts mentioned?

Such as Rahab, there are questions about Jethro and his family took as well, The Queen of Sheba, and a better example, of Ruth. There were also many in the diaspora, written about in Esther that converted.

As far as when Yeshua came, there were many proselytes at the time.

Sooooooooooooooo Gentiles did not 'have to wait' if this were true then this would make G-d unfair, to not allow you to know who he is, for 4,000 years or more.

I will retract (right word?) and make it "many gentiles" but not all. Of course there were those along the route and people who would travel and see the Israelites and bring word back to their place of dwelling. But the words of Hashem were not spread abroad for the most part.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Just pointing out that Jesus the Jew made the same distinction I'm making between Torah observant people(Jews) and non observant(Gentiles).
Of course I would not go with the dogs and crumbs thing

Even tho it is mentioned in this covenantle parable of Luke 16?

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

Luke 16:21 and yearning to be satisfied from the crumbs/scraps falling from the table of the rich man,
but also the dogs coming licked upon the sores of him.

 

[ContraMundum]

If the moral law is for all, but Torah is only for Jews, how would a non-Jew learn the moral law apart from Torah? Osmosis? From where do e.g. the Noachide Laws eminate if not Torah and Talmud???

Good question. If I can just chip in here, I would say that the moral Law was written on the heart since creation, but lost in the fall. Thus, we see traces of the moral Law in all men and in all religions. However, it is given directly by God to all who would hear, through His prophets and finally through His Messiah. Hence, since the moral law was intended for all men since creation, it is gracefully written in our hearts again when we become new creations in Christ through the New Birth.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Good question. If I can just chip in here, I would say that the moral Law was written on the heart since creation, but lost in the fall. Thus, we see traces of the moral Law in all men and in all religions. However, it is given directly by God to all who would hear, through His prophets and finally through His Messiah. Hence, since the moral law was intended for all men since creation, it is gracefully written in our hearts again when we become new creations in Christ through the New Birth.

Thank Heaven for New hearts, Bro

There are many, of course, who take serious issue with what Paul noted on that in Romans 1-2 with the Laws being upon men's hearts and His saying that those who never had Mosiac Law became a Law unto themselves---with the Lord judging them based on how they lived up the little revelation that they did have rather than the revelation that they didn't.



#150



If believing that Yeshua came and opened up a new way for us, one can't make comments to others like "Is the OT Torah not GOOD enough for ya??!!" or "Did God make a mistake when he said Torah would continue??!" when it comes to disagreeing with those saying Torah wasn't enough for all the Lord desired.



As Dr. Michael Brown said best in his discussion on salvation/addressing those looking solely to the Mosaic Code:

Certainly, each individual, Jew and Gentile, will have to stand before God on his or her own, and we cannot claim to know the fate of every human being. But of this we can be sure: God has not made a special covenant with the Jewish people that allows them to be saved without Yeshua. The testimony of the Scriptures is clear.

Why then do some Christians teach that Jews can be saved without believing in Jesus? For some, it is primarily a sentimental issue. That is to say—in overly simplistic terms—they go to Israel, they see Jews praying at the Wailing Wall, they recognize that the Jews are the chosen people, they read about the church’s past persecution of the Jews—in the name of Jesus no less—and they simply cannot imagine them being lost. After all, at certain times in history, it appears that the Jews have been far more righteous than the Christians! Isn’t it arrogant, then, to think that believers in Jesus are saved while these righteous Jews are lost? The unspeakable tragedy of the Holocaust has also made it difficult for many Christians to believe that Jews who do not believe in Yeshua will not be saved.



Others, however, base their views on a number of scriptural arguments, most of which boil down to the claim that God gave Israel the Mosaic covenant, and Jews who adhere to that covenant remain in right standing with the Lord. This is allegedly reinforced by Paul, who taught that “those who obey the law who will be declared righteous” and that there will be “glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile” (Romans 2:13, 10), implying that Torah-keeping Jews will be accepted by the Lord as righteous.



These arguments, however, do not stand up to close scrutiny, and the overall message of the New Testament stands against this line of reasoning. Jesus told His fellow Jews that if they knew the Father, they would know Him also, and those who rejected Him rejected the Father as well (see Luke 10:16; John 5:36-47; cf. also 9:39-41). In keeping with this, John wrote that “he who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life,” and that “no one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also” (1 John 5:12; 2:23).




Repeatedly in the book of Acts, the Jewish apostles shared the Good News with their people, and repeatedly their message was rejected by many of their people. Did the apostles say, “Well, that’s not that big of a problem. You still have your own way to God.” No, Peter plainly stated to the Sanhedrin, the Jewish governing body, “Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12—yes, this verse was originally spoken by a Jewish man to a Jewish audience, not by a narrow-minded, fundamentalist preacher on TV).



Paul too made himself clear when his people rejected the message of the Messiah: “We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles” (Acts 13:46; this is basically how Acts ends; see Acts 28:16-31). That’s why Paul had “great sorrow and unceasing anguish” in his heart: so many of his people were not saved (see Romans 9:2), including those whom he said were “zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge” (Romans 10:2).

In fact, it was for those very people that he prayed (see Romans 10:1), “Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness” (Romans 10:3).


So, according to Paul, despite the religious zeal of the Jewish people, they failed to understand the gift of God’s righteousness and therefore “his heart’s desire and prayer to God for [them was] that they may be saved” (Romans 10:1). Let me repeat: Even Jewish people who are zealous for God (Romans 10:2) and are pursuing a law of righteousness (9:31; 10:3) are in need of salvation through Yeshua.

As for the notion that Jewish people can be saved by observing the Mosaic covenant, Paul wrote:

Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin (Romans 3:19-20).



I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing! (Galatians 2:20)


All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, “The righteous will live by faith.” (Galatians 3:10-11)


​

That is why, to the end of his life, Paul reached out to his people: He longed to see them saved. And that is why he was willing to suffer so much persecution from his own people, coming back again and again to share the Good News (see, e.g., 2 Corinthians 11:24; Acts 21-22).

It is also important to remember that, in Jesus, God made a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah (see Jeremiah 31:31-34; Luke 22:19-20; Hebrews 8:7-12), and, “By calling this covenant ‘new,’ he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear” (Hebrews 8:13).


So, Israel’s way to God is through the new covenant rather than the Mosaic covenant, a point made emphatically clear with the destruction of the Temple in A.D. 70, a destruction that has lasted to this day.


Jesus made it clear that He was the fulfillment of the Torah and Prophets (see Matthew 5:17-19), while the disciples recognized Him to be the one of whom Moses and the prophets spoke (see John 1:45; Acts 3:24-26).

After His resurrection, the Lord said to His disciples, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms” (Luke 24:44), commissioning them to preach “repentance and forgiveness of sins . . . in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem” (Luke 24:47).


All this means that Jesus is either the Messiah of the Jewish people or the Messiah of no people; He is either the Savior of everyone, Jew and Gentile alike, or the Savior of no one.

I personally agonize over these issues, wishing at times that somehow, almost everybody could just make it in, especially my own Jewish people.

But I know that all of us fall infinitely short of God’s standards and that, without His mercy displayed in the cross, there is no hope for any of us, Jew and Gentile alike. And it is significant that religious Jews who come into a life-transforming faith in Yeshua do not simply say, “I had the same relationship with God before I believed, but now I just understand things a little better.” To the contrary, their normal response is, “Now I’ve found the truth! Now I really know God! Now my sins are forgiven!” That’s what happens when we enter into the new covenant through Messiah’s blood.
​

 

[Avodat]

The point I was making is that we were only ever intended to learn G_d's law (Torah) so well that it would become a natural part of our lives and would bring life, not death as Scripture says. In time the written law would then not be needed as all would know it and, no longer, will one teach the other because it would known by all.

This we failed to do so Yeshua came to show us what life should be like with Torah engraved on our hearts. Paul is therefore correct, in a sense, that slavishly following the written law was not G_d's way for us. We are free because Yeshua set us free - showing us how it was intended that we should live in full compliance with G_d's law. The written law would fade away (in its use) because we should all have it on hearts - that is why we are given new hearts (Ezekiel) not our hearts of stone. We are saved by grace because when we then inadvertently break that law, grace is given to cover it so that our relationship with G_d is not inadvertently broken. On-tap grace where everyone is forgiven everything all the time is non-Biblical and the result of universalist theology.

Having it written on our hearts means that we should then take this life and light that the law brings, to the gentiles (a light to the gentiles - Isaiah). My full post is printed above.

 

[visionary]

The letter kills, the truth lies in living it via Holy Spirit

 

[Avodat]

The letter kills, the true lies in living it via Holy Spirit

Exactly - that is why Paul kept going on about being free in Yeshua. If the law was embedded in our hearts and lives we would not have to carry the burden of slavishly following the written word - we would be free from the death it brings as we enjoy the fact that it brings life in our hearts, the Temple of the H. Spirit.

This is all Paul was preaching (though he made a mess of it at times - we have 20/20 hindsite).

 

[jcpro]

Good question. If I can just chip in here, I would say that the moral Law was written on the heart since creation, but lost in the fall. Thus, we see traces of the moral Law in all men and in all religions. However, it is given directly by God to all who would hear, through His prophets and finally through His Messiah. Hence, since the moral law was intended for all men since creation, it is gracefully written in our hearts again when we become new creations in Christ through the New Birth.

we were created in the image of G-d with ability to tell right from wrong and a free will to make a decision. Righteous and evil men existed before the Mosaic revelation and certainly before Jesus. One does not need Torah to do the right thing.

 

[Lulav]

I will retract (right word?) and make it "many gentiles" but not all. Of course there were those along the route and people who would travel and see the Israelites and bring word back to their place of dwelling. But the words of Hashem were not spread abroad for the most part.

I'm not sure I understand yedida, i've heard something similar from other cChristian teachings but don't know where this is gotten from. Can you help me out?

What route are you speaking of?

The people traveling, where were they?

The words of HaShem not being spread abroad, where was this commanded?

Israel was not called to be missionary and that's what i think you are speaking of? Can you explain? Thanks sweetie.

 

[Lulav]

The point I was making is that we were only ever intended to learn G_d's law (Torah) so well that it would become a natural part of our lives and would bring life, not death as Scripture says. In time the written law would then not be needed as all would know it and, no longer, will one teach the other because it would known by all.

I don't understand this kind of reasoning. It doesn't match up with the definition of the new covenant if that is what you are speaking of and I think you must be. The written law will stand, just as Yeshua said it would until all things be fulfilled, which are far from done. We still don't understand all that the Torah contains, let alone having it done already. The New Covenant states:

“This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the LORD.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.


The same as when He took us out of Egypt, he promises what He will do. This is not something we do, but allow Him to do.

Also the Torah does not bring death, the disobedience to it does.

This we failed to do so Yeshua came to show us what life should be like with Torah engraved on our hearts. Paul is therefore correct, in a sense, that slavishly following the written law was not G_d's way for us. We are free because Yeshua set us free - showing us how it was intended that we should live in full compliance with G_d's law.

This conclusion makes G-d someone who can't get it right the first time, and one who changes his mind, as well as one who didn't know what would happen once he handed down his instructions. This belittles G-d. Following G-ds laws were to follow the right way to be his children. Nothing slavish about it, the problem came when it wasn't done out of love and that is why Yeshua said the greatest commandment was not one of the 10 but the Shema, To Love the L-RD with all your heart, strength and soul and then to love your neighbor as yourself. This is what it's all about, LOVE.

Yeshua did not set us free from being obedient, he came to show how to be obedient with love. His love for his father made him do what he did. He was here to serve, not to do his own thing, nor to teach others to be free and do their own thing. He put up with everything he did because that is what the Father wanted from him, that was his purpose.

The written law would fade away (in its use) because we should all have it on hearts - that is why we are given new hearts (Ezekiel) not our hearts of stone. We are saved by grace because when we then inadvertently break that law, grace is given to cover it so that our relationship with G_d is not inadvertently broken. On-tap grace where everyone is forgiven everything all the time is non-Biblical and the result of universalist theology.

Having it written on our hearts means that we should then take this life and light that the law brings, to the gentiles (a light to the gentiles - Isaiah). My full post is printed above.

Yet you mention nothing about what Yeshua preached most on, Repentance. Turning away from your own will and following that of the Father.

 

[Avodat]

I don't understand this kind of reasoning. It doesn't match up with the definition of the new covenant if that is what you are speaking of and I think you must be. The written law will stand, just as Yeshua said it would until all things be fulfilled, which are far from done. We still don't understand all that the Torah contains, let alone having it done already. The New Covenant states:

“This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the LORD.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.

Yes, I said that if you read my original post on this, and not just the summary (although it appears, there, too). As we study the law he will cause it to be written on our hearts, as he says in your quote, because we will be entirely open to it. Instead we have tried to ignore what he wishes us to study and, by extension, we have made his law a thing to be followed slavishly instead of willingly as our very lifeblood and joy.
Where did Yeshua say the written law would remain until everything is done? And I did not say it would cease to be, in any case.

The same as when He took us out of Egypt, he promises what He will do. This is not something we do, but allow Him to do.

Also the Torah does not bring death, the disobedience to it does.

Scripture does make this point





This conclusion makes G-d someone who can't get it right the first time, and one who changes his mind, as well as one who didn't know what would happen once he handed down his instructions. This belittles G-d. Following G-ds laws were to follow the right way to be his children. Nothing slavish about it, the problem came when it wasn't done out of love and that is why Yeshua said the greatest commandment was not one of the 10 but the Shema, To Love the L-RD with all your heart, strength and soul and then to love your neighbor as yourself. This is what it's all about, LOVE.

That is not what I said if you read it properly.
Sh'ma is the total aim of having the law engraved or embedded in our heart - we could do no other, as I have said already.
If you had his law in your heart and you allwed it to rule your life in all its fullness you would love him - don't see a problem with that.

Yeshua did not set us free from being obedient, he came to show how to be obedient with love. His love for his father made him do what he did. He was here to serve, not to do his own thing, nor to teach others to be free and do their own thing. He put up with everything he did because that is what the Father wanted from him, that was his purpose.

Neither did I say this if you read my whole argument and not just the brief summary



Yet you mention nothing about what Yeshua preached most on, Repentance. Turning away from your own will and following that of the Father.

Ah, we do have a role to play! Repentance was implied in the bit about grace; I was not writing a systematic theology paper! I was making the point that if the law is truly written on our hearts as being the way we live etc, as it was meant to be, then acts of repentance are going to be few and far between, as inferred in what I said when I wrote that the law will be life - we will know no other way of living.

Why have you twisted just about everything I have said? Can you not read plain English?

 

[visionary]

I'm not sure I understand yedida, i've heard something similar from other cChristian teachings but don't know where this is gotten from. Can you help me out?

What route are you speaking of?

The people traveling, where were they?

The words of HaShem not being spread abroad, where was this commanded?

Israel was not called to be missionary and that's what i think you are speaking of? Can you explain? Thanks sweetie.

I think of Jonah... I think of Solomon and the Queen of Sheba visit..

 

[Seeking Him]

There is a big problem here for us Gentiles.

Ok, those who say, the "law is written on our hearts", quoting out of Jeremiah 31, also seem to think that the new Covenant, has not began yet, and the New Covenant is only for Israel and Judah. So how can they use a verse, out of a Covenant, that they say is not for Gentiles, to uphold Mosaic law for Gentiles?

Then the other problem arises.

If the full Mosaic law is written on the heart of the Gentile, that would force him to have to comply externally with what is internally written because the two have to become one, whereby forcing Gentiles to become Jewish, which goes against new Testament theology.

Seems strange.

 

[Lulav]

If the New Covenant is stated to be for only Judah and Israel, then that means it is for those two. You have to be one or the other, else his laws will not be written upon you.

Simple.