Something in the Bible that is actually supported by evidence

[Phred]

How is the written report of the history of 32AD and carved stones any more supportive of the people you mentioned than the jewish history in the New Testament?

Because texts can be altered. I know you believe the Bible is something that cannot ever be changed... but texts can be and always have been changed. Also, when they are written they are biased. For example... Pilate washing his hands of Jesus' execution. Did he do this or was this the authors attempt to lay the blame on the Jews and reconcile with the Roman Empire?

We seek corroboration when we try to verify historical happenings.

If we want to doubt everything as evidence, why not assume that the carved rocks and such were merely concurrent aids and appendages to the lies being fabriacted back then?

Because there is no reason to falsify the dedication of a theater.

We can discredit and deny anything for that matter.

We can. But it's healthy to doubt and verify.

But what about Big Bang which agrees that once there was an in the beginning.

The "Big Bang" simply says that at some point in the past there was an expansion that was the beginning of the universe as we currently know it. We have no idea if this is just one of many in a multiverse or ... well, or what? We don't know. To pretend the authors of the Bible knew is just silly.

Does not that speak for itself?

No.

 

[Phred]

Looking at the rock, I can make out:
...TIBERIEVM...
...VSPILATV...
...ISNO...
The second line is probably 'PONTVSPILATVS' or something, but do you know how did they deduced the third line?

I believe it's assumed because it's a standard building dedication.

[DIS AUGUSTI]S TIBERIÉUM
[...PO]NTIUS PILATUS
[...PRAEF]ECTUS IUDA[EA]E
[...FECIT D]E[DICAVIT]

If I recall correctly (which I probably don't), didn't Herod die before Jesus was born? I remember there being something iffy about the dates.

Actually, this theater was built by decree of Herod the Great. So the two coincide. Not sure how they came upon that tidbit.

 

[Phred]

lame.

Every reputable science sources states unequivically that time began ticking 13.5 billion years ago

No. Every reputable source says that time began with the expansion we call the Big Bang. It is thought that the Big Bang happened 13.75 billion years ago. This is based upon measurements of temperature fluctuations of the cosmic background radiation and the correlation function of the galaxies. If our measurements become more precise this could change somewhat.

This is the same science you try to use ellsewhere to show genesis is wrong.

I don't need science to show that Genesis is wrong. In the very first sentence is says that the earth and the heavens were created at the same time. This is false.

Apparently, your kind of science can be iffy and vague when it suits your argument.

As has been said over and over and over. Scientific answer are conditional. Unlike the rabid certainty of religion.

 

[Phred]

Accurate and factual has never been a problem. The problem seems to be in the ability people have to be able to understand the Bible. Now we have a better understanding then ever before, but people want to hold onto their traditions. Eden was all about biodiversity. Evolution teaches us a lot about biodiversity. But people still do not get it. They still do not understand what Eden was all about.

No. You wish to believe that Eden is the place all this happened. It's you that's having trouble understanding.

 

[AV1611VET]

I'm sorry, I was referring to Herod the Great. Although there is evidence for Herod Antipas both 1 and 2 as well.

Here's the 411 on the Herods of the Bible:

1. Herod the Great, reigned 37 BC - 4 BC as King of the Jews. His rule was marked by intrigue and bloodshed, including the incident recorded in Matthew 2, called "the slaughter of the infants."
2. Herod Antipas, reigned 4 BC - AD 39 as Tetrarch of Galilee and Perea. It was this Herod who John the Baptist accused of wrongfully marrying Herodias, which accusation cost John his life. Jesus called Herod "that fox" (Luke 13:32) and it was he who was involved in the trial of Christ in Jerusalem (Luke 23:7-12).
3. Herod Agrippa I, reigned AD 37-44 over Galilee, Samaria, and Judea. His reign was cut short by his sudden death. Acts 12 records his murder of James the son of Zebedee and the imprisonment of Peter together with the account of Herod's death.
4. Herod Agrippa II, reigned AD 50 - 100. He appears in Acts 25 and 26 in conjunction with the trial of Paul before Festus in Caesarea. He, along with Festus, rendered a verdict of acquittal (Acts 26:31-32).

 

[Phred]

Here's the 411 on the Herods of the Bible

Ok, let's talk Herods.

Herod Antipas, the one that is mentioned in the Jesus mythology, is given verification outside the Bible by being mentioned by Josephus, Dio, Suetonius, Philo and on several archaeological findings in Judea. He was responsible for building Tiberias, his capital in Galilee. He minted coins, built walls and fortified towns. Through these things we know he existed separate from the Bible.

Herod the Great was his father who also minted coins and built the second temple in Jerusalem. The Wailing Wall is part of this project that remains standing. His tomb was discovered as well as a quarry that he was responsible for. He is documented by Josephus. **Note, it is Herod the Great who, in the Bible, would have been responsible for killing all the first born in a hunt for Jesus after his birth. There is no record of such a thing ever taking place outside of the Bible.

Then there are the two Herod Agrippas...

Herod Agrippa I was the grandson of Herod the Great. He was sent to Rome and educated alongside Tiberius' son Drusus and the future emperor Claudius. His life is documented by Josephus, Cassius Dio and Eusebius of Caesarea. He minted coins and was known as Agrippa the Great.

Herod Agrippa II was another and the last of the Herods. He is preserved for us by Josephus. Also by Photius. He too was educated in Rome.

We know of these men by the things they built, the coins they minted, the marks they made upon history in the writings of historians and the physical evidence left behind. None of them claimed miracles. None of them had biased followers writing mystical books about them claiming they were gods.

 

[Huram Abi]

Herod the Great was his father who also minted coins and built the second temple in Jerusalem. The Wailing Wall is part of this project that remains standing. His tomb was discovered as well as a quarry that he was responsible for. He is documented by Josephus. **Note, it is Herod the Great who, in the Bible, would have been responsible for killing all the first born in a hunt for Jesus after his birth. There is no record of such a thing ever taking place outside of the Bible.

.

His paranioa and concern for his throne showed him to be the type of person that may have ordered the exectution of children.

But, as you said, there is no evidence of this actually happening and such an atrocity would have been recorded by Josephus, among others.

There is specualtion that the story is rooted in the killing of his own children as he often changed his will concerning the successor to his throne, ignoring firstborn rights or circumventing the order of succession by simply murdering the next in line.

This is an oversimplification of the facts, but you get the idea.

 

[AV1611VET]

We know of these men by the things they built, the coins they minted, the marks they made upon history in the writings of historians and the physical evidence left behind.

So? what's your point? that Jesus should have constructed a building or something?

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

None of them claimed miracles.

They knew better.

None of them had biased followers writing mystical books about them claiming they were gods.

Feel better now?

 

[AV1611VET]

But, as you said, there is no evidence of this actually happening and such an atrocity would have been recorded by Josephus, among others.

How do you know they didn't?

And speaking of recording, what does C stand for in B.C.?

 

[Huram Abi]

So? what's your point? that Jesus should have constructed a building or something?

Well, he was a carpenter.

 

[Huram Abi]

How do you know they didn't?

And speaking of recording, what does C stand for in B.C.?

I don't. But there isn't any reason to assume the did until those recordings surface.

And Bede (presuppositionally nontheless) was the first to use "B.C." so I am not certain what the point of the question is.

 

[AV1611VET]

Well, he was a carpenter.

He was the stepson of a carpenter as well; what did his stepfather build?

And for the record, do you believe Nimrod was real?

 

[AV1611VET]

I don't. But there isn't any reason to assume the did until those recordings surface.

Ever heard of entropy?

 

[Phred]

How do you know they didn't?

And speaking of recording, what does C stand for in B.C.?

It stands for Christ. I'm sorry, can you show me how an arbitrary point in time as decided by the people in charge of the calendar at the time, priests, means that Jesus walked on water? Or even actually existed? There are things named after Big Foot and the Loch Ness Monster... are you suggesting they exist because things were named after them?

BTW... I use BCE which stands for Before Common Era. No religious nonsense attached.

 

[Phred]

Ever heard of entropy?

Every heard of the Beatles?

 

[AV1611VET]

It stands for Christ. I'm sorry, can you show me how an arbitrary point in time as decided by the people in charge of the calendar at the time, priests, means that Jesus walked on water?

As far as I'm concerned, my obligation to the discussion ended when I showed Christ in secular writings -- as in the calendar.

Even you guys use Him in science; ever heard of El Niño?

BTW... I use BCE which stands for Before Common Era.

That's your problem, not mine.

 

[AV1611VET]

Every heard of the Beatles?

Now we're going to clown around, aren't we?

 

[Huram Abi]

As far as I'm concerned, my obligation to the discussion ended when I showed Christ in secular writings -- as in the calendar.

Bede's writings weren't secular.

And the calendar, itself, isn't a writng or a document. It is a system that uses symbolism to keep track of time. The secular symbolism that represents the time frame under discussion is denoted as B.C.E.

 

[Huram Abi]

He was the stepson of a carpenter as well; what did his stepfather build?

And for the record, do you believe Nimrod was real?

Considering that Jesus is the alleged son of God and savior of mankind who not only had a significant life, but the most significant life imaginable, I think we are comparing apples to aardvarks here.


I imagine they both built a number of things, but the preservation of the things Jesus built by his disciples and followers or written account of any intentional destruction of such artifacts is to be expected.


For the record, I believe the Nimrod character represents a person who was likely real, though may have not gone by that name. Of course, it helps that some towns he supposedly built are archeologically verified as real places.

 

[mark kennedy]

I thought that, rather than just ripping all the foolish attempts to say, "The Bible is supported by science" because of misunderstanding what that means, I'd offer an example.

The Bible mentions that the Roman who sent Jesus to his death was Pontius Pilate. It was thought for a time that this man might have been fictional. However, putting together the EVIDENCE leads us to learn that Pilate was indeed a real person. Wikipedia tells us that he was Prefect of Judea from 26 -36 CE. His name appears on a stone engraving found in a theater.

[snip the interesting but redundant image]

This reads:

This building - Tiberium
By Pontius Pilatus
Prefect of Judea
Has been built

There are also mentions of him by Tacitus, Philo and Josephus. We know he was corrupt, feared being reported to the Emperor and finally was sent back to the Emperor however by the time he arrived in Rome Tiberius had died.

This tells us that Pilate was a real person.

Herod was also real. We have found his tomb and several of the grand building projects he was responsible for.

We know that two of the people in the Gospels were real. We know that the lived and breathed in the right place at the right time.

So does this mean that science, specifically archaeology, supports the Bible?

No, it just means that these two men were real people. It doesn't mean that the Biblical accounts are accurate or factual.

First of all there are three basic methods for determining the validity of validity of historical documents like the Gospels and Acts.

There are three basic tests for the validity of an historical document, Internal, External and Bibliographical.

Internal Evidence: The proof of matters of fact rests upon moral evidence alone; by which is meant not merely that species of evidence which we do not obtain either from our own senses, from intuition, or from demonstration. (The Testimony of the Evangilists, by Simon Greenleaf)

External Evidence: Archeologist examines Acts as an historicial document, comparing it to what is known about the places and culture of the time. (St. Paul the Traveler and the Roman Citizen, by William Ramsey)

Bibliographical Testing

1. How much time between the original and the oldest copies, and
2. How many copies there are. (The Bibliographic Test)

Finding a rock with Pilate's name on it while wonderful for an archeologist but it comes as little more then a curiousity for a Bible scholar. The Bible itself has withstood far more serious critical examination then anyone on these forums can possibly manage. The Bible has stood the test of time and weathered the many attacks on it's historical veracity better then any from antiquity.

If you are ever seriously interested in learning what an actual examination of the Bible as history includes let me know. Until then have fun with these fallacious rhetorical ploys, I don't know why but it seems to please your secular masters.

Have a nice day
Mark