I've got a couple of questions

[Ken-1122]

Question #1
Why the Trinity? Why Jesus and the Holy Ghost; why not just God? Are there some things God the father is not capable of which requires the assistance of the Holy Ghost, or Jesus?
Question #2
Did those who were closest to Jesus; Mary, his parents, his disciples, etc. pray to him and worship him as God? Or did they simply follow and learn from him as a leader.

Ken

 

[jehoiakim]

1. Maybe these will be helpful, they aren't perfect but they might give you and idea

I always liked the analogy that God is like states of matter, solid, gas and liquid. It is not totally accurate. They are all the same matter but they have different functions or characteristics.

This is of course flawed too, but You could also think of it this way God the Father is like the world, The Holy Spirit is like South America, and Jesus is like Argentina.... The Holy Spirit is part of God, Jesus is Part of God, but the Father Addresses the whole thing. I put Jesus as the most specific thing because while fully God he is also fully human, and therefore he embraced human limitations, he had to learn to speak, he could only be in once place at a time, etc.

2. No they did not pray to Jesus, nor did Jesus Pray to himself, but he taught us to pray specifically to the father... if we pray to Jesus I don't believe that means God doesn't here us, but is isn't really correct. If you are using this question as possible evidence that Jesus did not see himself as God then you have other scriptures that will present a challenge to you, for instance when he calls himself "The I AM" which the pharisees understood him to be proclaiming himself God in reference to how God identified himself at the burning bush, which is why they wanted to stone him in John 8, you also would have to wonder why he would remain silent at his trial when he could have just right out said he was not God nor did he think he was, he could have said we are all God's children and that's what he meant, but he did not say that

I hope this is helpful. I think we had a discussion before and I got upset with you, I thought I apologized, but I am apologizing again. I misunderstood your tone because you restated something I said and ended with a K for Ken and I thought it was a sarcastic k as in ok... so again I am sorry for that.

 

[Ken-1122]

1. Maybe these will be helpful, they aren't perfect but they might give you and idea

I always liked the analogy that God is like states of matter, solid, gas and liquid. It is not totally accurate. They are all the same matter but they have different functions or characteristics.

Why different functions and characters? Isn’t God the father enough?

This is of course flawed too, but You could also think of it this way God the Father is like the world, The Holy Spirit is like South America, and Jesus is like Argentina.... The Holy Spirit is part of God, Jesus is Part of God, but the Father Addresses the whole thing. I put Jesus as the most specific thing because while fully God he is also fully human, and therefore he embraced human limitations, he had to learn to speak, he could only be in once place at a time, etc.

Isn’t God the father capable of embracing human limitations? Can’t God speak? Why can’t God the father do whatever needs to be done himself?

2. No they did not pray to Jesus, nor did Jesus Pray to himself, but he taught us to pray specifically to the father... if we pray to Jesus I don't believe that means God doesn't here us, but is isn't really correct. If you are using this question as possible evidence that Jesus did not see himself as God then you have other scriptures that will present a challenge to you,

Atually I’m asking if whether or not those closest to him and who followed him saw him as God.

I hope this is helpful. I think we had a discussion before and I got upset with you, I thought I apologized, but I am apologizing again. I misunderstood your tone because you restated something I said and ended with a K for Ken and I thought it was a sarcastic k as in ok... so again I am sorry for that.

No problem; no offence taken my friend!

Ken

 

[razeontherock]

Question #1
Why the Trinity? Why Jesus and the Holy Ghost; why not just God? Are there some things God the father is not capable of which requires the assistance of the Holy Ghost, or Jesus?

I think this question is a lot better than the many threads we've seen on this topic lately. I won't say that this representation is purely for our sake, to be able to relate better; but I will say that perspective is a key element of "our reality." So it's maybe not so hard to fathom G-d in a far away, unreachable state. What about Him , in our midst? Operating within us, communing with us, implanting thoughts and desires? So we have this "Person of the Holy Ghost." Still every bit G-d, but maybe we can relate better.

Then Jesus. Yeah, that sorta puts a snafu on everything, doesn't it? I mean, who really wants to be held accountable for everything we do, think, say, or even just want? And yet we can't think of G-d the Father as being this human Person, because Jesus' human existence in no way minimized any aspect of G-d.

So 3 different ways of knowing Him. Make any sense to you?

Question #2
Did those who were closest to Jesus; Mary, his parents, his disciples, etc. pray to him and worship him as God? Or did they simply follow and learn from him as a leader.

Ken

Nobody really understood what was going on til after the day of Pentecost, 50 days after the crucifixion. How did Mary go from seeing Angels announce His birth, to acting like a normal Mom? Well, she gave birth, and raised a child. That can change things! I'm sure there were LOTS of times Jesus wasn't a leader to anyone. Picture growing up in a poor carpenter's family, in a land where you can't even grow a tree and it never rains! How did His Dad react the first time he scrapped a piece of wood (due to a mistake) that had been worked on quite a bit already? How old was Jesus when He raised His first blister? Pretty young, I bet.

 

[leftrightleftrightleft]

Question #1
Why the Trinity? Why Jesus and the Holy Ghost; why not just God? Are there some things God the father is not capable of which requires the assistance of the Holy Ghost, or Jesus?

I don't think the Trinity exists for God's benefit but for ours. I think the Trinity exists because God is unfathomable and infinite and so he gets broken down into three "parts" so that we are better able to understand his nature.

I like the analogy of the ocean in which God the Father is the deep water, the Holy Spirit is the currents and Jesus is the waves. You must go through the waves and be moved by the currents before you can get to the deep water.

But the ocean itself is all three wrapped into one: God.

Question #2
Did those who were closest to Jesus; Mary, his parents, his disciples, etc. pray to him and worship him as God? Or did they simply follow and learn from him as a leader.

Ken

I think they saw him as a leader. To be honest, if you read the Gospels, it doesn't seem like anyone had much idea what he was going on about. The disciples were endlessly confused, stuff went over people's heads, and the Pharisees just got turned around in circles. I think that is one of Jesus' purposes: to turn our assumptions and preconceived notions on their heads and leave us confused and wondering and seeking more.

 

[Ken-1122]

I think this question is a lot better than the many threads we've seen on this topic lately. I won't say that this representation is purely for our sake, to be able to relate better; but I will say that perspective is a key element of "our reality." So it's maybe not so hard to fathom G-d in a far away, unreachable state. What about Him , in our midst? Operating within us, communing with us, implanting thoughts and desires? So we have this "Person of the Holy Ghost." Still every bit G-d, but maybe we can relate better.

Isn't God capable of relating to us as well as the Holy Ghost?

Nobody really understood what was going on til after the day of Pentecost, 50 days after the crucifixion. How did Mary go from seeing Angels announce His birth, to acting like a normal Mom? Well, she gave birth, and raised a child. That can change things! I'm sure there were LOTS of times Jesus wasn't a leader to anyone. Picture growing up in a poor carpenter's family, in a land where you can't even grow a tree and it never rains! How did His Dad react the first time he scrapped a piece of wood (due to a mistake) that had been worked on quite a bit already? How old was Jesus when He raised His first blister? Pretty young, I bet.

Yeah I bet he was quite young. Too bad we don't have any records of him at that age huh?

K

 

[Ken-1122]

I don't think the Trinity exists for God's benefit but for ours. I think the Trinity exists because God is unfathomable and infinite and so he gets broken down into three "parts" so that we are better able to understand his nature.

I like the analogy of the ocean in which God the Father is the deep water, the Holy Spirit is the currents and Jesus is the waves. You must go through the waves and be moved by the currents before you can get to the deep water.

Can't God the father be it all? Can't he be the deep waters, the waves, the current, and anything else the ocean consists of?

I think they saw him as a leader. To be honest, if you read the Gospels, it doesn't seem like anyone had much idea what he was going on about. The disciples were endlessly confused, stuff went over people's heads, and the Pharisees just got turned around in circles. I think that is one of Jesus' purposes: to turn our assumptions and preconceived notions on their heads and leave us confused and wondering and seeking more.

So are you saying Jesus brought the Gospel in a way that confused everybody?

K

 

[drich0150]

Question #1
Why the Trinity? Why Jesus and the Holy Ghost; why not just God? Are there some things God the father is not capable of which requires the assistance of the Holy Ghost, or Jesus?

The titles in the trinity describe a role that incarnation of God has taken. As in Father, Son, and Spirit. The roles or these understandings of the different aspects of God, would inherently limit each incarnation to a specific job. Not that a specific incarnation of God could Not cross the specific lines of a job, but rather has accepted a specific Role in the trinity.

Question #2
Did those who were closest to Jesus; Mary, his parents, his disciples, etc. pray to him and worship him as God?

Christ did not advertise Himself as God till much later on. as He knew this would cause the religious leaders to call for His Death.

Or did they simply follow and learn from him as a leader.

Most thought him a Prophet, but the whole resurrection thing changed all of that.

 

[razeontherock]

Isn't God capable of relating to us as well as the Holy Ghost?

Yup The Holy Ghost IS G-d

 

[razeontherock]

Here's a thread a started some time ago on Trinity:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7532669/

 

[Ken-1122]

The titles in the trinity describe a role that incarnation of God has taken. As in Father, Son, and Spirit. The roles or these understandings of the different aspects of God, would inherently limit each incarnation to a specific job. Not that a specific incarnation of God could Not cross the specific lines of a job, but rather has accepted a specific Role in the trinity.

But why divide himself into separate people, then assign specific tasks for each part of him? Why not just be God and do everything?

Christ did not advertise Himself as God till much later on. as He knew this would cause the religious leaders to call for His Death.

But they called for his death anyway; and eventually killed him.
Later on when he did advertise himself as God, did his followers worship him? Or did they continue to see him as a leader.

K

 

[Ken-1122]

Yup The Holy Ghost IS G-d

When I said "God" I meant the fraction of the trinity known as "God the father".

K

 

[drich0150]

But why divide himself into separate people, then assign specific tasks for each part of him? Why not just be God and do everything?

The roles of God are for our comperhension. Haven't you asked if Jesus was God then How is it recorded that He prayed to Himself? The trinity is to help us understand the roles of God.

But they called for his death anyway; and eventually killed him.

At the time of his choosing.

Later on when he did advertise himself as God, did his followers worship him? Or did they continue to see him as a leader.

They approached Him with this revelation and He confirmed. When they tried to worship as a deity, He often told them to get up and complete their tasks.

 

[razeontherock]

But why divide himself into separate people, then assign specific tasks for each part of him? Why not just be God and do everything?

He IS! Same difference.

But they called for his death anyway; and eventually killed him.
Later on when he did advertise himself as God, did his followers worship him? Or did they continue to see him as a leader.

K

One He revealed Himself to His Disciples, they certainly did worship Him as G-d, yes. Part of the complexity of this is if He had revealed Himself to everyone, they wouldn't have killed Him.

 

[razeontherock]

When I said "God" I meant the fraction of the trinity known as "God the father".

K

No, you don't get to do that. Each "fraction" (WRONG concept!) IS G-d. Understanding this makes all your stated problems with this whole thing go away.

 

[leftrightleftrightleft]

Can't God the father be it all? Can't he be the deep waters, the waves, the current, and anything else the ocean consists of?

God is all that. The three parts give us a better understanding of his nature and how to have relationship with him.

God the Father is a part of the whole entity which is God. God the Father can't just "be it all" because then you're just redefining God the Father to be God and you still need the other parts.

Its like asking me to define a tree as a tree and just forget that it consists of bark, leaves and roots. If it consists of parts, then those parts are given names. Trying to ignore the parts by redefining terms does not get rid of the parts.

So are you saying Jesus brought the Gospel in a way that confused everybody?

I think this is taking my quote a bit too far out of context. Jesus did confuse a lot of people which is why you're here on this forum, exploring and seeking and wondering. A universal quality of nearly all religions is the notion that wisdom cannot be taught, it must be learned. Jesus poses questions that make us think and question our assumptions. He doesn't tell it to us like a science textbook because being told something often does not give us true understanding.

"Unfortunately, no one can be told what the Matrix is. You have to see it for yourself" --Morpheus. (Sorry for the corny quote, I just watched this movie yesterday after not watching it for about 10 years. Haha )

 

[Ken-1122]

The roles of God are for our comperhension. Haven't you asked if Jesus was God then How is it recorded that He prayed to Himself? The trinity is to help us understand the roles of God.

Why must God be restricted to "roles"? Why can't 1 God, 1 person, etc just do what is necessary when he feels necessary?
Also, in a previous thread titled "Please explain the Trinity" there was almost a consensus among many of the replies that the trinity was so far above our heads that us humans will never be able to fully understand it. So how can you claim the trinity helps us understand God? It seems to cause more confusion than anything else don't cha think?

They approached Him with this revelation and He confirmed. When they tried to worship as a deity, He often told them to get up and complete their tasks.

So would you agree that Jesus did not want to be worshipped? Also would you mind providing the scripture that supports this?

Ken

 

[Ken-1122]

He IS! Same difference.

No, I'm not talking about several people doing different roles, I'm talking about 1 God, being, person, etc. doing everything as he feels necessary.

One He revealed Himself to His Disciples, they certainly did worship Him as G-d, yes. Part of the complexity of this is if He had revealed Himself to everyone, they wouldn't have killed Him.

So it is your position that had Jesus revealed himself as God to everyone, the Jewish Leaders would not have conspired to have him killed?
I am always amased by the diversity of opinions by those who respond.

Ken
PS would you mind providing the scripture where Jesus revealed himself as God to be worshipped and prayed to?

 

[Ken-1122]

God is all that. The three parts give us a better understanding of his nature and how to have relationship with him.

Are you suggesting the trinity helps us understand God? On a previous thread titled “please explain the trinity” there was almost a consensus among many repliers that the trinity was so far above our heads that we will never fully understand it. So how can you say it helps us understand God? Seems to cause more confusion than anything else!

God the Father is a part of the whole entity which is God. God the Father can't just "be it all" because then you're just redefining God the Father to be God and you still need the other parts.

So is God the father a fraction/part of the whole entity which is God?

Its like asking me to define a tree as a tree and just forget that it consists of bark, leaves and roots. If it consists of parts, then those parts are given names. Trying to ignore the parts by redefining terms does not get rid of the parts.

Bark, leaves, roots, (and other things) are only a fraction/part of a tree and only when together can they make up a complete tree. Thus far nobody wants’ to claim the Father, son and HS are only a fraction/part of God and only a complete God when together; do you?

K

 

[Ken-1122]

No, you don't get to do that. Each "fraction" (WRONG concept!) IS G-d. Understanding this makes all your stated problems with this whole thing go away.

Maybe our problem is semantics. as you know "part" and "fraction" mean the same thing, so I ask you; is "God the father" a part of the trinity? if so, is the Trinity God?

Ken