Who did Moses chat with?

[YosemiteSam]

Can be and will or done are very different things. If you believe in annihiliation you may take comfort. I personally think that doctrine if believed in reality encourages the wicked to party hearty because it will really be over. So where is the motivation to do different?

I have no clue as to why eternal life means unending bliss while eternal punishment is for a period of time. Can you explaing the difference in the word eternal?

You might want to go back and re read 1 Cor 15 then...

 

[YosemiteSam]

John,,
Looks like the Crimson Tide got hold of a tiger they just couldn't tame...LOL

 

[JohnRabbit]

And last time I checked man is also a soul which is housed in the flesh and blood mud hut.The soul is the only part of man that won't be destroyed.

that's not what the bible says:

Matthew 10:28(NKJV)
28... But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

the word "destroy" in this verse is :

G622 (from strong's)

ἀπόλλυμι

apollumi

ap-ol'-loo-mee

From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively:—destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

so, once again, are we to believe from scratch or the bible?

 

[JohnRabbit]

'Splain it please.

john 1:14!

 

[from scratch]

that's not what the bible says:

Matthew 10:28(NKJV)
28... But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

the word "destroy" in this verse is :

G622 (from strong's)

ἀπόλλυμι

apollumi

ap-ol'-loo-mee

From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively:—destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

so, once again, are we to believe from scratch or the bible?

Did you read the part I changed to black and enlarged? So do you believe the Bible? It is your quote, not one from me. It mentions nothing about destrroying the soul. Just says it is possible.

 

[JohnRabbit]

Did you read the part I changed to black and enlarged? So do you believe the Bible? It is your quote, not one from me. It mentions nothing about destrroying the soul. Just says it is possible.

i know that some are going to burn up and be destroyed in the fire, however, you said that the soul is the only part of man that won't be destroyed.

in other words, you say it's possible, but the bible says this is going to happen.

help me to understand what you mean.

 

[from scratch]

been trying to have one with you, but you won't answer 98% of my questions so i can better understand where you are coming from.

i've asked you repeatedly "Who declared Whom?" and haven't heard from you yet.

John 1:18(NKJV)
18No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

John 17:25-26(NKJV)
25O righteous Father! The world has not known You, but I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me.
26And I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it, that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them.”

why would Jesus have to declare the Father?

Beats me. you have an answer?

I suppose you think this means that it was Jesus that Moses spoke to. If that is so then what does Moses mean in Ex 33:20? If you're following the discussion you will read this - OK so it appears to me that if Moses is addressing God the Father and you say that someone elses answers then Moses again addresses God the Father. Who is this personality that Moses can't see which addresses him in the first person and only shows Moses His back or Glory in Ex 22:20. Who ever it was refused Moses to see His face saying no one can and live. How can it be Jesus? I remember Mal 3:6. How can God say no one can see Him and live then show His face to thousands at a time? Of course I'm talking about Jesus here and not God the Father. Wouldn't that make God a liar? - post 498

And this in 545 by Dorthea - I decided to look it up in my Orthodox Study Bible, and in the footnotes for Exodus 33:23, it says:

My back refers to the glory of God, for man can see His glory if his heart is pure. For Moses saw His glory to the extent he was capable, as is the case with any man. This glory is also called His energy. Man can know God in His energy, but not in His essence.

That's how the EO see that passage.

You might be interested in following my exchange with Dorthea from 498 through 550. Very pleasant exchange.

 

[from scratch]

i know that some are going to burn up and be destroyed in the fire, however, you said that the soul is the only part of man that won't be destroyed.

in other words, you say it's possible, but the bible says this is going to happen.

help me to understand what you mean.

Do you have a verse that states or implies they will be consumed by fire?

Did you read the verse you quioted in which I highlighted a phrase? If so why no comment?

 

[David64]

Do you have a verse that states or implies they will be consumed by fire?

Ezk.18:4 “ Behold, all souls are Mine; The soul of the father As well as the soul of the son is Mine; The soul who sins shall die. And again in verse 20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

Malachi 4 speaks to the time when the wicked shall be destroyed.
1“For behold, the day is coming, Burning like an oven, And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up,” “That will leave them neither root nor branch. [That is total annihilation] Now read verse 3.
“You shall trample the wicked, For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet
On the day that I do this,” Says the LORD of hosts.

Jesus speaks of this event in Mat.25:32-33,41 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Verse 41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire ...We just read what happens when these wicked souls/people end up in this fire Mal.4

In Revelation 20:6 we read that “Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. For them the second death holds no power... So the second death does have power over some. That second death is forever, eternal, ETERNAL DEATH, eternal punish-MENT; NOT eternal punish-ING.

There is only one being that would perpetuate the lie that God would torment people forever for one short life time of sin. That may be the way Satan would do things if he was in charge, but thank God Satan is not in charge, God is. Eternal punishing is Satan’s fate and he would like us to think it is our fate too.

 

[JohnRabbit]

Ezk.18:4 “ Behold, all souls are Mine; The soul of the father As well as the soul of the son is Mine; The soul who sins shall die. And again in verse 20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

Malachi 4 speaks to the time when the wicked shall be destroyed.
1“For behold, the day is coming, Burning like an oven, And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up,” “That will leave them neither root nor branch. [That is total annihilation] Now read verse 3.
“You shall trample the wicked, For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet
On the day that I do this,” Says the LORD of hosts.

Jesus speaks of this event in Mat.25:32-33,41 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Verse 41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire ...We just read what happens when these wicked souls/people end up in this fire Mal.4

In Revelation 20:6 we read that “Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. For them the second death holds no power... So the second death does have power over some. That second death is forever, eternal, ETERNAL DEATH, eternal punish-MENT; NOT eternal punish-ING.

There is only one being that would perpetuate the lie that God would torment people forever for one short life time of sin. That may be the way Satan would do things if he was in charge, but thank God Satan is not in charge, God is. Eternal punishing is Satan’s fate and he would like us to think it is our fate too.

thanks for answering that for me.

mal 4:3 is the kicker for me!

well said!

i'd add:

Genesis 3:4(NKJV)
4Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die.

 

[JohnRabbit]

Beats me. you have an answer?

I suppose you think this means that it was Jesus that Moses spoke to. If that is so then what does Moses mean in Ex 33:20? If you're following the discussion you will read this - OK so it appears to me that if Moses is addressing God the Father and you say that someone elses answers then Moses again addresses God the Father. Who is this personality that Moses can't see which addresses him in the first person and only shows Moses His back or Glory in Ex 22:20. Who ever it was refused Moses to see His face saying no one can and live. How can it be Jesus? I remember Mal 3:6. How can God say no one can see Him and live then show His face to thousands at a time? Of course I'm talking about Jesus here and not God the Father. Wouldn't that make God a liar? - post 498

And this in 545 by Dorthea - I decided to look it up in my Orthodox Study Bible, and in the footnotes for Exodus 33:23, it says:

My back refers to the glory of God, for man can see His glory if his heart is pure. For Moses saw His glory to the extent he was capable, as is the case with any man. This glory is also called His energy. Man can know God in His energy, but not in His essence.

That's how the EO see that passage.

You might be interested in following my exchange with Dorthea from 498 through 550. Very pleasant exchange.

"beats me"!? (this is going to be some discussion, alright)

ok.

my answer would be in the six point type i highlighted in each verse i submitted.

it's nice to know that you take time out to think for me, that's mighty nice of you. can you tell me some more things i'm thinking or need to think (you know i need help )?

will get back with you on post 498 and i read the exchange between you and Dorthea, of whom i'm waiting for a response to "Our" of gen 1:26.

 

[from scratch]

Ezk.18:4 “ Behold, all souls are Mine; The soul of the father As well as the soul of the son is Mine; The soul who sins shall die. And again in verse 20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

Malachi 4 speaks to the time when the wicked shall be destroyed.
1“For behold, the day is coming, Burning like an oven, And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up,” “That will leave them neither root nor branch. [That is total annihilation] Now read verse 3.
“You shall trample the wicked, For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet
On the day that I do this,” Says the LORD of hosts.

I'm a little curious here. If they're annihilated how is anybody or thing going to tread them down in verse 3?

Jesus speaks of this event in Mat.25:32-33,41 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Verse 41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire ...We just read what happens when these wicked souls/people end up in this fire Mal.4

In Revelation 20:6 we read that “Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. For them the second death holds no power... So the second death does have power over some. That second death is forever, eternal, ETERNAL DEATH, eternal punish-MENT; NOT eternal punish-ING.

There is only one being that would perpetuate the lie that God would torment people forever for one short life time of sin. That may be the way Satan would do things if he was in charge, but thank God Satan is not in charge, God is. Eternal punishing is Satan’s fate and he would like us to think it is our fate too.

Can you explain the difference in the word everlasting in say John 3:16 and contrast it to Mat 25:41. I just can't seem to understand the difference.

I would love to hear what you think the second death is, more specifically death? Bet we have a disagreement there.

It may be more appropiate to discuss this in a thread about hell. There is one in the UT section.

 

[from scratch]

"beats me"!? (this is going to be some discussion, alright)

ok.

my answer would be in the six point type i highlighted in each verse i submitted.

it's nice to know that you take time out to think for me, that's mighty nice of you. can you tell me some more things i'm thinking or need to think (you know i need help )?

OK tell me flat out Who Moses talked to especially since you suggest I'm doing your thinking. And don't give me this run aroud stuff using the word God. Was it Jesus or God the Father?

will get back with you on post 498 and i read the exchange between you and Dorthea, of whom i'm waiting for a response to "Our" of gen 1:26.

 

[from scratch]

john 1:14!

That doesn't splain Who the Speaker was in Gen 3:15. Do you need some illustrative help?

 

[JohnRabbit]

OK tell me flat out Who Moses talked to especially since you suggest I'm doing your thinking. And don't give me this run aroud stuff using the word God. Was it Jesus or God the Father?

the One we now know as Jesus, of Whom, i believe is the Christ.

Blessed be His Name and He Who sent Him!

 

[JohnRabbit]

That doesn't splain Who the Speaker was in Gen 3:15. Do you need some illustrative help?

then go back to jn 1:1!

 

[from scratch]

please elaborate.

Sure the wicked are going to get a short whippin and cease to be. So its over for ever. Big deal a short whippin for years of pleasure - not a bad trade off. At least they had fun - you? My guess is that is zactly why my SDA neighbor smiles like a cheshire cat about all those phony hot dogs and talks about sinning while eating Churches chicken. He never seems to tire of lying to himslef about the phony stuff he endures for salvation. One can't purposefully sin as a life style and have salvation at the same time, can they? Sure sounds like pleasure to me - you?

 

[JohnRabbit]

Sure the wicked are going to get a short whippin and cease to be. So its over for ever. Big deal a short whippin for years of pleasure - not a bad trade off. At least they had fun - you? My guess is that is zactly why my SDA neighbor smiles like a cheshire cat about all those phony hot dogs and talks about sinning while eating Churches chicken. He never seems to tire of lying to himslef about the phony stuff he endures for salvation. One can't purposefully sin as a life style and have salvation at the same time, can they? Sure sounds like pleasure to me - you?

Matthew 20:1-15(NKJV)
1“For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard.
2Now when he had agreed with the laborers for a denarius a day, he sent them into his vineyard.
3And he went out about the third hour and saw others standing idle in the marketplace,
4and said to them, ‘You also go into the vineyard, and whatever is right I will give you.’ So they went.
5Again he went out about the sixth and the ninth hour, and did likewise.
6And about the eleventh hour he went out and found others standing idle, and said to them, ‘Why have you been standing here idle all day?’
7They said to him, ‘Because no one hired us.’ He said to them, ‘You also go into the vineyard, and whatever is right you will receive.’
8“So when evening had come, the owner of the vineyard said to his steward, ‘Call the laborers and give them their wages, beginning with the last to the first.’
9And when those came who were hired about the eleventh hour, they each received a denarius.
10But when the first came, they supposed that they would receive more; and they likewise received each a denarius.
11And when they had received it, they complained against the landowner,
12saying, ‘These last men have worked only one hour, and you made them equal to us who have borne the burden and the heat of the day.’
13But he answered one of them and said, ‘Friend, I am doing you no wrong. Did you not agree with me for a denarius?
14Take what is yours and go your way. I wish to give to this last man the same as to you.
15Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with my own things? Or is your eye evil because I am good?’

God is love, even in the punishment of the wicked.

merciful.

 

[from scratch]

"beats me"!? (this is going to be some discussion, alright)

ok.

my answer would be in the six point type i highlighted in each verse i submitted.

it's nice to know that you take time out to think for me, that's mighty nice of you. can you tell me some more things i'm thinking or need to think (you know i need help )?

will get back with you on post 498 and i read the exchange between you and Dorthea, of whom i'm waiting for a response to "Our" of gen 1:26.

OK maybe I see what you're saying.

It seems to me that you claim Moses saw the back of Jesus. So my question is Who was Moses speaking to? Who ever that was said you can't see My face and live. Why? Thousands have seen the face of Jesus Whom you claim Moses was only permitted to see the back of. Does God change? Not according to Mal 3:6 - remember.

This then brings up another point. Did Moses see the back of Someone he wasn't talking with? Must be to fit you senario. Then say it was the glorified state of Jesus that Moses was forbidden to see and explain the form of the post resurrection Jesus appearing to the disciples that can access a secured room without coming thru a door. Wouldn't that be a glorified state?

 

[from scratch]

the One we now know as Jesus, of Whom, i believe is the Christ.

Blessed be His Name and He Who sent Him!

Please go through this Scripture I'm posting in nausating detail. I think you know exactly what I'm looking for or at. I want to know exactly Who each party and pronoun is referring to.

12And Moses said unto the LORD, See, thou sayest unto me, Bring up this people: and thou hast not let me know whom thou wilt send with me. Yet thou hast said, I know thee by name, and thou hast also found grace in my sight.

13Now therefore, I pray thee, if I have found grace in thy sight, shew me now thy way, that I may know thee, that I may find grace in thy sight: and consider that this nation is thy people.
14And he said, My presence shall go with thee, and I will give thee rest.
15And he said unto him, If thy presence go not with me, carry us not up hence.
16For wherein shall it be known here that I and thy people have found grace in thy sight? is it not in that thou goest with us? so shall we be separated, I and thy people, from all the people that are upon the face of the earth.
17And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name.
18And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.
19And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.
20And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
21And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
22And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by: 23And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.