Are Allah and Yaweh the same God?

[Montalban]

We can see that the RCC in Vatican II makes the error that Moslems worship the same God as God

It would be surprising for a Christian church to encourage people to go out to non-Christian churches to study them in order to gain further insights into the truth of God.

I am not aware of this being taught in the RCC, but it may be the case.

I always thought that the RCC claimed to teach the full repository of the faith. For one here it's like there's fullness, but Islam provides fullness+

 

[JacktheCatholic]

We can see that the RCC in Vatican II makes the error that Moslems worship the same God as God

It would be surprising for a Christian church to encourage people to go out to non-Christian churches to study them in order to gain further insights into the truth of God.

I am not aware of this being taught in the RCC, but it may be the case.

I always thought that the RCC claimed to teach the full repository of the faith. For one here it's like there's fullness, but Islam provides fullness+

Yes, that is a fair statement IMO.

In answer to you and in response to the OP let me quote something I posted in OBOB earlier this week:

I know there is a long history of violence with Islam. The Crusades started out for a reason.

But, it seems that we should not lump all into one group. I base this on a few things; personal experience, the Pope's speach, and the CCC.

For instance:

The Church regards with esteem also the Muslims. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in himself; merciful and all-powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth, who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even his inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, his virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting. (Nostra Aetate 3; cf. Lumen Gentium 16)

But I am also not naive to current and past violent issues (remember Adam in Baghdad last year on this day?).

But the Pope even stated:

Christians and Muslims, following their respective religions, point to the truth of the sacred character and dignity of the person. This is the basis of our mutual respect and esteem; this is the basis for cooperation in the service of peace between nations and peoples, the dearest wish of all believers and all people of good will.

And yes that ended with more Muslim violence: Pope’s remarks enrage Muslims - World news - Europe - msnbc.com

But we need to remember to do all things with Love. 1 Corinthians 13

1 If I speak in human and angelic tongues 2 but do not have love, I am a resounding gong or a clashing cymbal. 2 And if I have the gift of prophecy and comprehend all mysteries and all knowledge; if I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give away everything I own, and if I hand my body over so that I may boast but do not have love, I gain nothing. 4 Love is patient, love is kind. It is not jealous, (love) is not pompous, it is not inflated, 5 it is not rude, it does not seek its own interests, it is not quick-tempered, it does not brood over injury, 6 it does not rejoice over wrongdoing but rejoices with the truth. 7 It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. 8 Love never fails. If there are prophecies, they will be brought to nothing; if tongues, they will cease; if knowledge, it will be brought to nothing. 9 For we know partially and we prophesy partially, 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. 11 When I was a child, I used to talk as a child, think as a child, reason as a child; when I became a man, I put aside childish things. 12 At present we see indistinctly, as in a mirror, but then face to face. At present I know partially; then I shall know fully, as I am fully known. 13 So faith, hope, love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

It is through Love that we will win converts from Islam to Catholicism. It is through Love that our works are not as nothing.

But, if ever the time came to defend my brethren or the Body of Christ, I pray I am steadfast in courage and strength to give all I have for Him.

I have highlighted a portion that deals directly with this thread.

 

[steve_bakr]

Thank you, JacktheCatholic, for your post in this thread.

To Montalban, while I said that I learned things from Islam, I never said that the teaching of the Church lacked the fullness of truth. On the contrary, the Roman Catholic Church embodies all the teachings necessary--moreover, it possesses the depth and resources--for Salvation and Christian perfection.

Peace of the Lord be with you.

 

[Montalban]

To Montalban, while I said that I learned things from Islam, I never said that the teaching of the Church lacked the fullness of truth. On the contrary, the Roman Catholic Church embodies all the teachings necessary--moreover, it possesses the depth and resources--for Salvation and Christian perfection.

Why are you searching for religious truths elsewhere then?

 

[steve_bakr]

Why are you searching for religious truths elsewhere then?

World Religions have been an interest of mine for many years, particularly what is common to them. Such study is not frowned upon in the Catholic Church as it is in Protestant evangelical churches.

Peace of the Lord be with you.

 

[gideon army]

World Religions have been an interest of mine for many years, particularly what is common to them. Such study is not frowned upon in the Catholic Church as it is in Protestant evangelical churches.

I totally agree with you wholeheartely your above statement! However since you're so skilled in so many 'religions' & am sure you pride yourself as an excellent expositor of the Scriptures (you have to be or else am sure you know of the saying: jack of all trades but MASTER of None? )

My Invitation Especially to you:-

Gentlemen,

Kindly stay the course & do not deviate from TS original post. If you guys wanna DEBATE about scriptures, then may i suggest you start a thread in

(1) Covenant Theology - Christian Forums

or in:-

(2) Christian Scriptures - Christian Forums

If you guys decides to start a thread there, kindly notify me via PM for i'll love & breath to DEBATE Scriptures ESPECIALLY with catholics

Steve_bakr, may i bring to your remembrence the u/m post dedicated to you?

Please read slowly & carefully, tried my best to not mince my words

Have still to be answered

You might wanna start with those scriptures which i've used in this thread as starters since you claim them used by me out of context?

Actually i beg you to quickly start a new thread in those sub forums that i've attached above

 

[Montalban]

World Religions have been an interest of mine for many years, particularly what is common to them. Such study is not frowned upon in the Catholic Church as it is in Protestant evangelical churches.

My apologies, I poorly phrased my question

I wasn't asking about 'why are you studying other religions' per se

I have asked in the past why are you looking for truth in those. How is Islam helping you be a better Christian? And that does, I believe go against the notion of your own church re: the full respository of truth.

 

[steve_bakr]

My apologies, I poorly phrased my question

I wasn't asking about 'why are you studying other religions' per se

I have asked in the past why are you looking for truth in those. How is Islam helping you be a better Christian? And that does, I believe go against the notion of your own church re: the full respository of truth.

My Church (with "C" in Caps).

It sounds like a question with an accusation attached to it. May I see my lawyer.

My study of the Quran is connected to the language it is written in.

Peace of the Lord be with you.

 

[Montalban]

My Church (with "C" in Caps).

Caps isn't in caps!

It sounds like a question with an accusation attached to it. May I see my lawyer.

My study of the Quran is connected to the language it is written in.

Peace of the Lord be with you.

You can see whomever you like. The benefits of looking for truths in Islam when you yourself admit that the RCC has all the truths.

I can understand if you're looking into Islam and going "Oh wow, they believe that too" and thus finding a 'truth' in Islam - although it's probably tempered by their own distortion(s)*.

However you seem to be saying you're looking into Islam to finding ways to better your practice and/or understanding of Christianity - you talked earlier of the benefits, such as how Moslems prostate themselves.

How does that make you a better Christian? Given that Christians prostate themselves anyway. Is there a particular Islamic way of doing it? And, how does it help you in your Christianity?

There you are promoting going into Islam and looking for truth but are as yet to write how it's helped you! Not a good sales pitch


*-I've already mentioned some, such as al-Lah's deception relating to the crucifixion of Jesus

 

[steve_bakr]

Caps isn't in caps!

You can see whomever you like. The benefits of looking for truths in Islam when you yourself admit that the RCC has all the truths.

I can understand if you're looking into Islam and going "Oh wow, they believe that too" and thus finding a 'truth' in Islam - although it's probably tempered by their own distortion(s)*.

However you seem to be saying you're looking into Islam to finding ways to better your practice and/or understanding of Christianity - you talked earlier of the benefits, such as how Moslems prostate themselves.

How does that make you a better Christian? Given that Christians prostate themselves anyway. Is there a particular Islamic way of doing it? And, how does it help you in your Christianity?

There you are promoting going into Islam and looking for truth but are as yet to write how it's helped you! Not a good sales pitch

*-I've already mentioned some, such as al-Lah's deception relating to the crucifixion of Jesus

For you to ascribe motives to me and then judge them is not appropriate here, neither is accusing me of not complying with the Church, whose teachings you don't even profess. I would hope that this is beneath you, after all we've been through.

I am not trying to sell Islam, nor am I an apologist of its teachings. When I hear those who are polemically biased against it, I try to offer a more Catholic ecumenical approach.

I have received numerous accusations to the effect of questioning my Christian faith, to which I have repeatedly responded with the confirmation of my Christian faith, even to the point of typing out the Apostles' Creed.

The Catholic Church does not condemn nor discourage the study of other faiths. She recognizes that truth is contained in them. The Church recognizes that Muslims acknowledge the same God as Christians, which provides a basis for positive engagement.

I think this is a good time to end our dialogue.



Peace of the Lord be with you.

 

[Montalban]

For you to ascribe motives to me and then judge them is not appropriate here, neither is accusing me of not complying with the Church, whose teachings you don't even profess. I would hope that this is beneath you, after all we've been through.

I don't ascribe motives to you. I suggest that you can go see whomever you want.

As to what your church teaches, you yourself agreed that it claims that it is the fullness of truth.

If something is the fullness of truth, I don't get how you have truth+ because your truth is already full.

I am not trying to sell Islam, nor am I an apologist of its teachings.

I'm merely describing your position of being something you've not shown any benefit for.

When I hear those who are polemically biased against it, I try to offer a more Catholic ecumenical approach.

Based on what, though? That's what I don't get. What are you gaining by it in your catholicism?

I have received numerous accusations to the effect of questioning my Christian faith, to which I have repeatedly responded with the confirmation of my Christian faith, even to the point of typing out the Apostles' Creed.

I'm not questioning you as a Christian. There's many Christians here who don't follow things I believe in. I don't say that they aren't Christian. But I do like to know the reasons for things

The Catholic Church does not condemn nor discourage the study of other faiths. She recognizes that truth is contained in them.

I already noted I understand this POV. What I don't get is you're not saying you're there to find skericks of truth in Islam, but means to learn from. What is it you're learning?

The Church recognizes that Muslims acknowledge the same God as Christians, which provides a basis for positive engagement.

Yes, I accept that your church believes that. I think it's wrong, but I accept that

I think this is a good time to end our dialogue.

I am sad having not once learnt what are the benefits of Islamic praying techniques

 

[steve_bakr]

For those inquiring into the subject, please refer to the post by JacktheCatholic, which is really the most thorough answer to the question posed by th OP.

Peace of the Lord be with you.

 

[gideon army]

For those inquiring into the subject, please refer to the post by JacktheCatholic, which is really the most thorough answer to the question posed by th OP.
.

When discussing 'Faiths' , shouldn't one uses ONLY scriptures Why? Scriptures is THE only Authority in Interpreting Scriptures or in this case- quran versus BIBLE

However coming from you, i now understand the full reasoning behind; BalloonS

 

[Montalban]

When discussing 'Faiths' , shouldn't one uses ONLY scriptures Why? Scriptures is THE only Authority in Interpreting Scriptures or in this case- quran versus BIBLE

However coming from you, i now understand the full reasoning behind; BalloonS

That wouldn't explain how scripture became scripture.

The bible didn't fall out of heaven fully compiled.

 

[Montalban]

For those inquiring into the subject, please refer to the post by JacktheCatholic, which is really the most thorough answer to the question posed by th OP.

Peace of the Lord be with you.

He doesn't say to study Islam to discover truths to help with your Christian faith!

 

[steve_bakr]

He doesn't say to study Islam to discover truths to help with your Christian faith!

The thread is about whether Yahweh and Allah can be considered the same God, and I said that JacktheCatholic's post was the best answer.

For the sake of those interested, I have also said that Muslims acknowledge the same God as Christians and ought to be respected for their reverence of God. This and the parallels between the Quran and Bible provide a good basis for positive engagement. I have also said that polemics against Islam is the lower road to take.

I have also suggested that we Christians should not only show love and respect for Muslims, but also for our fellow Christians in this forum; this means we ought not to engage in badgering, goading, or cyberbullying. The hymn says, "They will know we are Christians by our love."

Let us make ourselves known to our Muslim friends by our love for each other and for them.

Peace of the Lord be with you.

 

[gideon army]

(1) That wouldn't explain how scripture became scripture.

(2) The bible didn't fall out of heaven fully compiled.

(1)

You sure? Actually Scriptures is basically & intrinsically GOD love letters to us. The whole Book speaks primary of GOD the father & Jesus love for us.

Shall show you an example that Scriptures is about Jesus Himself from Jesus Himself

Luke 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself

Wow that is literally all the OT & NT also How might above applies to OT on things pertaining/ concerning Jesus one might ask.

You will find in Lev burnt offering, the sin offering, and the trespass Offering/ Peace offering- all of these are shadow of Jesus Himself.

Shall show you an 2 example of Scriptures Interpreting Scriptures

Burnt Offering

Lev 1:8 'Then the priests, Aaron's sons, shall lay the parts, the head, and the fat in order on the wood that [is] on the fire upon the altar;

Lev 1:9 'but he shall wash its entrails and its legs with water. And the priest shall burn all on the altar as a burnt sacrifice, an offering made by fire, a sweet aroma to the LORD.

Now compare & contrast the above with the following u/m:-

John 10:17 "Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again.

Whatever Jesus does, He does it in equal measure. His very being/ thought/ words/ action is pure delight to the Father hence Jesus gives off sweet aroma to the Father

If the above isn't conculsive for readers, then how about apostle paul who incidentally wrote 70% of the NT :-

Eph 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma

Sin Offering

Lev 4:3'Now if the whole congregation of Israel sins unintentionally, and the thing is hidden from the eyes of the assembly, and they have done [something against] any of the commandments of the LORD [in anything] which should not be done, and are guilty;

Most will know of the Sinaitic Covenant & the New Covenant cut by Christ & GOD right? However wonder how many knows of the 1st Covenant? Which is known as the Abrahamic Covenant

You will read Gen 15:9-18, GOD 'cut' a covenant with abraham. Ahem, actually it was GOD the Father who cut with God the Son (Jesus) on abraham behalf. (Gen 15:17)

You will also read that in Gen 15:9-10, GOD asks abraham to prepare heifer, female goat, ram, a turtledove, and a young pigeon & then cut the animals in two (Halfs). Why/ So that is any breaks the covenant, it shall be done to the covenant breaker like the animals

Now, you understand why Christ have to come & Die on the Cross? Suspended Between Heaven & earth- Literally cut in 2!

GOD was dealing with abraham purely / strictly on GRACE (Unearned/ Undeserved/ Unmerited Free favors from GOD). Why? GOD cause abraham to sleep Gen 15:12, why? Can a corruptible human be expected to honor a covenant with a perfectly Perfect GOD? Doubt so

Hence when the Children of Israel boasted of their ability to keep all of GOD commands at Mount Sinai & hence the Sinaitic Covenant (men centered-men's ability to keep His command hence blessings & inability- cursings) replaced the abraham covenant (God's centered- His Goodness)

Now, for nearly 1400-1500 years during the Sinaitic Covenant, most ended up on the cursed side of the covenant instead of blessings which GOD wants believers to have hence Jesus have to come to fulfill all Righteousness (God's prophecies in the garden of eden to have the devil head crushed hence giving satan PHD/ Jesus also needs to fulfill the broken covenant - the Abrahamic Covenant & lastly, to clense all believers from adam to the last men, eternally of all their sins with His Blood for if there's no shedding of blood, no remission of sins Hebrews 9:22

Jesus's blood is eternal for Jesus is outside time as He is GOD & eternally efficacious. If GOD is restricted by Time then time is GOD right?

However, i'll like to bring readers to the beauty of the Scriptures, see how careful The Holy Spirit Guards Jesus divinity.

Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God [did] by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh

2 Cr 5:21 For He made Him who knew no sin [to be] sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

1 John 3:5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin

(2)

Actually ? Theoretically? Yes Scriptures did indeed came from the heaven/sky

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.

and

John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

If anyone thinks that it's referring just to the NT, then you'll be shocked:-

2 Ti 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed

 

[gideon army]

I have also suggested that we Christians should not only show love and respect for Muslims, but also for our fellow Christians in this forum; this means we ought not to engage in badgering, goading, or cyberbullying. The hymn says, "They will know we are Christians by our love."

Let us make ourselves known to our Muslim friends by our love for each other and for them.

Yo mate, Scriptures does not agree with you

Don't talk about showing 'respect' & ' love' for muslim, paul really kick the living daylights (figuratively) out of apostle peter & james

Shall show you again now to decipher / unearth hidden treasures from Scriptures:-

2 Cr 12:17 And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure.

Now, many have been using the above verse in asking believers to be 'humble' out of context without full revelation knowledge.

Galatians was written in the year of 57 AD & 2nd Corinthians was written shortly after Romans in 58 AD Please kindly keep in mind these dates for they are of high importance for one to understand circumstances surrounding Paul's thorn in the flesh & who he terms messangers from SATAN

Why am i showing you this - you might ask. The thorn In Paul's flesh comes from Judaizers & Self Righteous Jerks in those Pharisees after Paul wrote in Romans 2 about the difference in keeping the LAW & those justified by GOD & hence in:-

Rom 3:8 And [why] not [say], "Let us do evil that good may come"?--as we are slanderously reported and as some affirm that we say. Their condemnation is just.

Then paul wrote again in:-

Romans 5:20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more,

After writing the above, Paul was accuse of preaching Grace to a point that he was misunderstood hence in :-

Rom 6:15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!

Can you see the conflicting messages paul was presenting & having constantly to justfy himself?

Can anyone not know from reading the furnished scriptures above CRYSTAL Clear that there were countless early Church ppl coming against Paul?

If above isn't conclusive that the early church were coming agaainst paul then how about:-

Gal 2:11 Now when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed;

Gal 2:12 for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision.

Gal 2:13 And the rest of the Jews also played the hypocrite with him, so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy.


Wow, imagine paul who was present when stephen was stoned rebuking peter Btw, this is the same peter that walk/sleep & witness Jesus's miracles+ walk on water

James was the chief man in the Jerusalem church & those guys were from James Oh this is the same james that is part of the original 12

Now, did paul compromise on the Gospel of Jesus Christ?

Now, hope you got the THORN part in paul's epistle but let's see SATAN messanger part shall we?

Eph 6:12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual [hosts] of wickedness in the heavenly [places].

Happy? satisfied & Conculsive enough for you?

Revelations Paul spoke about are the revelations in all his epistle that goes against SELF works/ Self Righteousness. Trannslated- paul could have & would have expounded much more scriptures revelations without constant need to justify his revelations if it's not those THORNS from MESSANGERS of SATAN

Now you undestand that it's NOT about the difference of Doctrines & such. Apostle pauls calls 2 of Jesus's Original 12 as messanger of satan for some slight difference in doctrine

 

[gideon army]

The hymn says, "They will know we are Christians by our love."

This is akin to the Law of Moses mate, it hinges on Self. I rather you listen to songs like these which is JESUS Centered :-

Jesus at the Centre of it All Israel Houghton & Micah Massey - Hillsong Conference *New Song* - YouTube


To know Your Name - hillsong ( with lyrics, video from the passion)) - YouTube

I See Grace - Worship Video - YouTube

 

[ViaCrucis]

(2)

Actually ? Theoretically? Yes Scriptures did indeed came from the heaven/sky

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.

and

John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

If anyone thinks that it's referring just to the NT, then you'll be shocked:-

2 Ti 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed

John chapter 1 isn't about Scripture, it's about Christ. The Logos who became flesh is Jesus Christ. It's not about the Bible at all, unless you're ready to call a collection of texts God. Which, by the way, is nothing short of idolatry.

The Bible didn't fall out from the sky. It was written and assembled by human beings (the Christian Church) over the course of hundreds of years. In fact, Christians have been discussing and debating the exact constituent books of the Biblical Canon right up to this present day; just consider the differences of opinion and position between Catholics, Protestants, and Orthodox over the Deuterocanonicals.

-CryptoLutheran