Genesis 1 Again

SkyWriting

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... So one can't fly into the middle of one of these days, and start gluing millions of years in there, just so it jives with so called science....

There are no biblical passages suggesting that observers to any of Gods actions in our world have a clue as to what had transpired. Everyone is baffled and most cannot believe what they see.

I don't know why anyone would expect conditions to be anything different today.
 
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SkyWriting

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Every single piece of physical evidence leads to the conclusion that the universe is old, the earth is old, that the big bang most probably happened, that evolution definitely did, and that there is nothing in the Genesis account that is in the least bit supported by physical science......

That's to be expected. When Jesus healed people, it had no support from science either. If you wish to call Jesus and those who believes He is the Son of God liars, you may. But don't be so outraged that People who DO believe Jesus was who He said He was, also believe the same things we think He believed.

I'm not even saying that a 6 day Creation is a hard fact. But Jesus NEVER even hinted that "Natural Selection" was a viable concept. So if God want's us to believe that 6-day Creation is a good idea.....I think it's best we go with it. I'll not run MY house in a survival of the fittest mode. You "Natural Selection" guys can take a hike. Walk the wide path if you choose. Kill the weakest among you.
 
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dad

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There are no biblical passages suggesting that observers to any of Gods actions in our world have a clue as to what had transpired. Everyone is baffled and most cannot believe what they see.

I don't know why anyone would expect conditions to be anything different today.
Well, do you expect to live forever today, as Adam could have? Something must have changed. Remember something changes in the future for the universe in the time when we live forever. So changes are biblical and irrefutable. Now, could the flood happen now, or people live 1000 years with our nature? Could spirit being dwell with men, indeed marry them and have kids? Could plants grow super fast?

What Noah and others did and said is a matter of record, and that record is as a matter of fact quite different than the world we know and live in today.
 
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Doveaman

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Heavens!! So all that just to have God not make the sun and moon, and stars on the day of creation they are said to be made on!? Wow. That is mental gymnastics at work.
There is no "making" of the stars in the original Hebrew text. That idea was added during the English translations. Some English translations do not include the stars being “made”, such as Young’s Literal Translation:

“And God maketh the two great luminaries, the great luminary for the rule of the day, and the small luminary — and the stars — for the rule of the night” (Gen 1:16).

The stars are simply described as ruling the night along with the moon. Not made.
Well, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. If we can wave that magic interpretation wand over one day, one could wave it everywhere I guess. So Adam wasn't really made the same day as animals? Poof...Adam was what, transported into the future, and saw himself being formed of the dust, but it was really long after the animals were made? Heck, one could run amok with that sort of willi nilly speculation, and really make the bible fit their pet theories. One problem, it is crazy talk.
Adam was created in the later part of day six. He could not have witnessed the creation events that occurred before, other than by divinely inspired visions.

Listen to My words: "When a prophet of the LORD is among you, I reveal Myself to him in visions, I speak to him in dreams." (Num 12:6).
But the account that God gave us is composed of six days. The creation order is given, day by day. So one can't fly into the middle of one of these days, and start gluing millions of years in there
I am not flying into the middle of any day. The record of Genesis 1 allows for an interpretation of millions of years to have occurred before day one of creation week. The Bible does not mention millions of years, but it is also not opposed to a millions of years interpretation.

The stars described on day four were not described in the original Hebrew text as being “made” during the six day creation events, and the earth in its “formless and empty” state was not described as being "created" during the six day creation events.

The earth in its formless and empty state and the stars were simply mentioned as being present during those creation events. They were not described as being “created” or “made”. So the six day creation events in Genesis 1 are not necessarily the original creation of the universe, but may simply be a re-creation of the earth’s biosphere following a global catastrophe. Hence, “formless and empty”.
just so it jives with so called science.
There are reasons to ignore some of the science, but there is no reason to ignore all of it.
The apostles and Jesus and others in the New Testament refer to the time of creation, and old Testament prophets as well. They didn't say 'Lord of all the earth, and heavens, which were here before the earth was'! You couldn't find a crowbar big enough to pry the creation of the stars and heavens away from creation week.
If Genesis 1 is describing a six day re-creation of the earth’s biosphere following a global catastrophe, then the prophets and apostles and Jesus would simply be referring to that new earth created to be inhabited by new lifeforms, including Man (Adam), after the global catastrophe had left the earth in a “formless and empty” state (a different state past).

"When You send Your Spirit, they are created, and You renew the face of the earth." (Ps 104:30).
 
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dad

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There is no "making" of the stars in the original Hebrew text. That idea was added during the English translations. Some English translations do not include the stars being “made”, such as Young’s Literal Translation:

“And God maketh the two great luminaries, the great luminary for the rule of the day, and the small luminary — and the stars — for the rule of the night” (Gen 1:16).

The stars are simply described as ruling the night along with the moon. Not made.
Adam was created in the later part of day six. He could not have witnessed the creation events that occurred before, other than by divinely inspired visions.
There is no doubt God created the heavens including the stars. The fact that they are included clearly in the creation week, as well as the way creation is spoken of in the rest of the bible does not support cutting them out.

Listen to My words: "When a prophet of the LORD is among you, I reveal Myself to him in visions, I speak to him in dreams." (Num 12:6).
I am not flying into the middle of any day. The record of Genesis 1 allows for an interpretation of millions of years to have occurred before day one of creation week. The Bible does not mention millions of years, but it is also not opposed to a millions of years interpretation.
What does that verse have to do with not knowing what a day is?

The stars described on day four were not described in the original Hebrew text as being “made” during the six day creation events, and the earth in its “formless and empty” state was not described as being "created" during the six day creation events.

The earth in its formless and empty state and the stars were simply mentioned as being present during those creation events. They were not described as being “created” or “made”. So the six day creation events in Genesis 1 are not necessarily the original creation of the universe, but may simply be a re-creation of the earth’s biosphere following a global catastrophe. Hence, “formless and empty”.
There are reasons to ignore some of the science, but there is no reason to ignore all of it.
Support for this claim?

If Genesis 1 is describing a six day re-creation of the earth’s biosphere following a global catastrophe, then the prophets and apostles and Jesus would simply be referring to that new earth created to be inhabited by new lifeforms, including Man (Adam), after the global catastrophe had left the earth in a “formless and empty” state (a different state past).

"When You send Your Spirit, they are created, and You renew the face of the earth." (Ps 104:30).
ps 136: 7 To him that made great lights: for his mercy endureth for ever: 8 The sun to rule by day: for his mercy endureth for ever: 9 The moon and stars to rule by night: for his mercy endureth for ever.


So they were made to do stuff for us, it is logical we were not arriving millions of years later after the fact.
 
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artybloke

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That's to be expected. When Jesus healed people, it had no support from science either. If you wish to call Jesus and those who believes He is the Son of God liars, you may. But don't be so outraged that People who DO believe Jesus was who He said He was, also believe the same things we think He believed.

I'm not even saying that a 6 day Creation is a hard fact. But Jesus NEVER even hinted that "Natural Selection" was a viable concept. So if God want's us to believe that 6-day Creation is a good idea.....I think it's best we go with it. I'll not run MY house in a survival of the fittest mode. You "Natural Selection" guys can take a hike. Walk the wide path if you choose. Kill the weakest among you.


There was no science around when Jesus was alive anyway; but if there were a blind man around who could now see, that would be pretty good evidence. And the problem with creationism is not the lack of evidence for it but the masses of positive evidence against it. So I'd rather live in the real world.

I can't see anywhere in Jesus' ministry where he would have had occasion to talk about natural selection; and by the way, your idea of 'survival of the fittest' has no resemblance to the theory of evolution. 'Survival of the fittest' is about the species surviving because it is the best 'fit' for that particular evolutionary niche. It has nothing to do with 'killing the weakest among you'. Evolution in any case is not something that individuals do; it's something that species do.

And God can choose to tell truth through stories if he wishes to: that's what the parables are.
 
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artybloke

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Babylon had science, the Egyptians had science.
No - they had some maths and some technology. They had a bit of astronomy (really astrology) The Greek had 'natural philosophy' - which was speculation about the natural world and maths (eg Euclid).

The wheel is technology/invention rather than science as such.

There was no culture of experimental science until the Renaisance and after, and it didn't really take off until the Enlightenment. Until the invention of lead crystal glass, there was no science of optics, no telescopes, no microscopy, no true chemistry, no physics, and most of the sciences that we now take for granted did not exist.

And the kind of people who were likely to hear Jesus were unlikely to have come across Greek natural philosophy. Most of them were probably illiterate. Why would Jesus have any interest in engaging in erudite discussions of natural philosophy and mathematics?
 
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SkyWriting

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There was no science around when Jesus was alive anyway; but if there were a blind man around who could now see, that would be pretty good evidence.....<snip>

Right. Science is a new thing. Enough arty comment on history for me.

I can't see anywhere in Jesus' ministry where he would have had occasion to talk about natural selection...

I agree it's not relevant to people's lives and how we should live and conduct ourselves.
 
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SkyWriting

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No - they had some maths and some technology. They had a bit of astronomy (really astrology) The Greek had 'natural philosophy' - which was speculation about the natural world and maths (eg Euclid).

The wheel is technology/invention rather than science as such.

There was no culture of experimental science until the Renaisance and after, and it didn't really take off until the Enlightenment. Until the invention of lead crystal glass, there was no science of optics, no telescopes, no microscopy, no true chemistry, no physics, and most of the sciences that we now take for granted did not exist....

That's not what "most" of science is. gday.
 
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SkyWriting

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Well, do you expect to live forever today, as Adam could have? Something must have changed. Remember something changes in the future for the universe in the time when we live forever. So changes are biblical and irrefutable. Now, could the flood happen now, or people live 1000 years with our nature? Could spirit being dwell with men, indeed marry them and have kids? Could plants grow super fast?

What Noah and others did and said is a matter of record, and that record is as a matter of fact quite different than the world we know and live in today.

I see it as the exact same world. Unless you mean before Adam was banished from paradise. Indeed, those were the good old days. But after that event, the dirt is the same soil we see today. In fact, the soil may be partly the people we read about.
 
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SkyWriting

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There was a lot of science around from the very beginning. Babylon had science, the Egyptians had science. The Greeks and Romans before Jesus had science. Even the Assyrians invented the wheel 4,000 years ago and that is considered to be science.

Understanding of nature has deteriorated from the day that Adam named each of the animals. Technology may have grown, but understanding of it is nill. It's like a Sci-Fi book I read in junior high. We don't understand why quantum physics works, but we use it to make our cell phones function.
 
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SkyWriting

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.....and that there is nothing in the Genesis account that is in the least bit supported by physical science.
And every single so-called creation scientist I've ever come across is a liar, a dissembler, a fraud or a self-decieved fantasist: take your pick. Even the average ufologist occassionally gets something right; but I've never seen a creationist ever get science right.Sorry to disappoint you. Meanwhile, in the real rather than the solipsistic fantasy world of creationism...

Genesis says that God created the Cosmos from nothing.

Science says this is not possible.

The First Law basically says that energy or matter can neither be created nor destroyed.

(In the Second Law), energy or heat cannot flow form a colder body to a hotter body.

The Third Law explains this further. It says that all processes cease as temperature approaches absolute zero. This is the temperature at which molecules cease movement, cease producing kinetic energy.

So Science says that all heat and energy will approach zero (Law 3)
Universe to end as &#8220;cold, dead wasteland&#8221; | The Cinch Review
and that it never could have been created in the first place. (Law 1)

So science says that only a Super-Natural source can operate outside the laws of natural science.

That is the Genesis story. Science confirms it.
 
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Originally Posted by SkyWriting Genesis says that God created the Cosmos from nothing.Science says this is not possible.

Actually "from nothing" is a Greek concept that goes back to Aristotle who lived before Christ.
I am trying to trace the Hebrew Concept that goes back to Moses

but have not been able to yet.

That is just so amusing to me. ^_^ I'm weird.
 
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dad

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I see it as the exact same world.

Oh? So who lives 1000 years now? Could a world of water fall from the sky without generating life killing heat from friction for a flood? Could the animals in the ark speciate rapidly today into hundreds of thousands of types? Could angels marry women and have babies and live here now? Can serpents chat it up with us now? Can the waters of the planet and land be separated in a week without killing heat produced? Can a garden be planted and the trees have fruit the same week? etc etc... No. in no way was it the same world in the sense of nature and laws.
Indeed, those were the good old days. But after that event, the dirt is the same soil we see today. In fact, the soil may be partly the people we read about.

Proof? Can water come up from the deep in today's rock and dirt?
 
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USincognito

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Hey I didn't invent the term. I just read it from a peer reviewed source.

If people complain that the Bible says that the earth is supported by "pillers" I respond that "columns" is the current terminology.

Wow, just wow. You're doubling down and sticking with the "pillars" is the same as the geological column? Wow...:o
 
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artybloke

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Genesis says that God created the Cosmos from nothing.

Science says this is not possible.

The 3 laws of thermodynamics came about as a result of the big bang. What laws may have operated before the big bang, or whether there was something rather tha nothing before the big bang, are currently the subject of much speculation and complicated mathematical modelling.

And as has been stated, it's a moot point about whether or not the writers of Genesis were actually teaching creatio ex nihilo, or whether that's just something imported from Greek philosophy, like so much in early Christian doctrine.
 
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Doveaman

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The 3 laws of thermodynamics came about as a result of the big bang.
There was no big bang. It's a modern myth. Get over it.
What laws may have operated before the big bang, or whether there was something rather tha nothing before the big bang,
False premise. Get over it.
are currently the subject of much speculation and complicated mathematical modelling.
It's speculative and complicated because it's false. Get over it
 
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