A confused atheist.

[Foolish]

No, you expressed a clear understanding that since Jesus could have not only saved Himself, but overthrown Rome, that it was quite the sacrifice not to, but to suffer and die according to the will of the Father.

You cannot cite an individual sacrifice that great, and yet Jesus' sacrifice is far more than just this!

I Didn't express a clear understanding. I believe I said the belief that Christ could've defeated the roman empire was hilarious.

You suggested that one of the reasons that christ's sacrifice was the greatest ever was that he let himself be killed by people he could've defeated easily.

Even if that were true, that seems to be a sacrifice of pride and status.

And you still havent addressed my central point: Jesus knew he was going to heaven for eternity after what is an infinitesimal amount of time in pain for an immortal god. Humans that sacrifice themselves aren't assured that there's an afterlife at all let alone that they're going to paradise as opposed to hell.

The central meaning of sacrifice is that you must give something up. When a human gives his/her life they may be giving up litterally everything. Christ's sacrifice was just his mortal life, knowing that he was immortal. That's simply not a sacrifice in the same magnitude as a human.

 

[IndieVisible]

Yeah but that's the crux of my confusion.

I'm basically a Rational person and am really confused regarding christian thought processes in this relation: if one assumes that Jesus is god/son of god then he actually sacrificed a lot (and I mean A LOT) less than anyone who has sacrificed themselves for the greater good, as he

1 was absolutely, categorically, guaranteed that heaven existed/exists

2 that he would definitely be going to heaven when he died.

The soldiers in WWII or civil rights campaigners didn't have such guarantees in these regards.

How come jesus' sacrifice is worthy of religious worship when it seems to be less of a sacrifice than many humans have made in our history?

My you are confused. You can't name one person who endured more suffering, humiliation, pain, sorry sacrifice of self for the good of every one, even those who hated him.

What did the solders in WWII do that was so great other then what they were ordered and expected to do? How is what they did different then what our "enemies" did? Certainly acts of bravery were present on both sides, but their actions were for the most part following orders and defending what they each felt was right for their country.

Jesus Christ followed God's Will, not his own. He sacrificed his life not just for those who loved him, but for every one, good and evil. Name another person who did greater then this? Any one can do good, even any of us can be kind to those we like, it gets harder being kind and showing love towards those who are bad and evil.

There is no one you can compare Jesus to. He alone is worthy of worship and praise, every one else, even the Pope fail miserably and pale in comparison!

 

[chilehed]

Why do you believe he is god?...

Because the objective historical evidence supports that conclusion.

 

[Foolish]

My you are confused. You can't name one person who endured more suffering, humiliation, pain, sorry sacrifice of self for the good of every one, even those who hated him.

What did the solders in WWII do that was so great other then what they were ordered and expected to do? How is what they did different then what our "enemies" did? Certainly acts of bravery were present on both sides, but their actions were for the most part following orders and defending what they each felt was right for their country.

Jesus Christ followed God's Will, not his own. He sacrificed his life not just for those who loved him, but for every one, good and evil. Name another person who did greater then this? Any one can do good, even any of us can be kind to those we like, it gets harder being kind and showing love towards those who are bad and evil.

There is no one you can compare Jesus to. He alone is worthy of worship and praise, every one else, even the Pope fail miserably and pale in comparison!

Your first point is that the soldiers of WWII were merely following orders and yet you go on to say that Christ followed god's will. What's the difference?

And, in any case, you are missing my point. My point isn't centred on the magnitude of the good that Christ, soldiers, freedom fighters, human rights activists etc. actually achieved. Nor is my point about their motives.

Sacrifice is all about what you lose - not why you lose it

My point is that Christ lost very little in the grand scheme of things. Christ knew what would happen and was assured of paradise. A human doesn't know what would happen and isn't assured of paradise. Therefore, logically, the human makes the greater sacrifice.

 

[Foolish]

Because the objective historical evidence supports that conclusion.

What objective history is that?

 

[IndieVisible]

Your first point is that the soldiers of WWII were merely following orders and yet you go on to say that Christ followed god's will. What's the difference?

And, in any case, you are missing my point. My point isn't centred on the magnitude of the good that Christ, soldiers, freedom fighters, human rights activists etc. actually achieved. Nor is my point about their motives.

Sacrifice is all about what you lose - not why you lose it

My point is that Christ lost very little in the grand scheme of things. Christ knew what would happen and was assured of paradise. A human doesn't know what would happen and isn't assured of paradise. Therefore, logically, the human makes the greater sacrifice.

My point regarding the solders is it is all a perception of reality, who the good guys and bad guys are/were.

And yes they were following orders. They had no choice.

Jesus had a choice and he chose to follow God's Will.

Logically speaking, there is no reason why I should worship any solder. Where as for Jesus, I do since I received salvation thru him. Not to mention He is God. Where as solders are dead and gone or soon will be. What exactly did I receive from solders? All temporal benefits, verses everlasting benefit from Jesus.

It is your argument which is illogical in the face value. And I might add imho put forth to discredit Christians or attempt to distract from the Truth. Feeble attempt at that.

 

[chilehed]

What objective history is that?

That question has, for a long time, struck me as being as absurd as asking "what objective history is there that the current President of the United States is the latest in a line that extends back to George Washington?"

It's not that there's insufficient evidence, it's that there's so much evidence that it's difficult to know where to start with someone who denies that it exists.

 

[Foolish]

My point regarding the solders is it is all a perception of reality, who the good guys and bad guys are/were.

And yes they were following orders. They had no choice.

Jesus had a choice and he chose to follow God's Will.

Logically speaking, there is no reason why I should worship any solder. Where as for Jesus, I do since I received salvation thru him. Not to mention He is God. Where as solders are dead and gone or soon will be. What exactly did I receive from solders? All temporal benefits, verses everlasting benefit from Jesus.

It is your argument which is illogical in the face value. And I might add imho put forth to discredit Christians or attempt to distract from the Truth. Feeble attempt at that.

Jesus had a choice not to follow his own will?

How can you think my argument is illogical when you keep missing my point?

What did Jesus lose?

 

[IndieVisible]

Jesus had a choice not to follow his own will?

How can you think my argument is illogical when you keep missing my point?

What did Jesus lose?

Why did he have to lose some thing?

 

[Foolish]

That question has, for a long time, struck me as being as absurd as asking "what objective history is there that the current President of the United States is the latest in a line that extends back to George Washington?"

It's not that there's insufficient evidence, it's that there's so much evidence that it's difficult to know where to start with someone who denies that it exists.

I know that there's a plethora of evidence that Christ exists/ed and that he is the son of the one true god. It was the use of the word "objective" that interested me.

What are you defining as objective?

 

[Foolish]

Why did he have to lose some thing?

Loss is central to sacrifice.

If he didn't lose something, then he didn't sacrifice himself for us.

 

[razeontherock]

You suggested that one of the reasons that christ's sacrifice was the greatest ever was that he let himself be killed by people he could've defeated easily.

Even if that were true, that seems to be a sacrifice of pride and status.

Yes, for G-d Himself, losing the status of respect, from His own chosen people no less, and submitting to the harshest possible humiliation is *quite* something. Sorry you can't see that.

That's simply not a sacrifice in the same magnitude as a human.

This is indeed a foolish statement, as Jesus is 100% human.

 

[razeontherock]

As for the doctrine being decided in 50 days after christ's death: how come there were so many competing gospels if the doctrine had already been settled? The last estimate I read was at least a dozen gospels were expunged from history (many years after christ's death) due to political whims. One such gospel was that of judas. What an interesting read that would've been.

You can read the Gospel of Judas today. And you can easily see that it is false, and why it was rejected. What you're failing to recognize, is that the criteria for "assembling the Bible" as you put it, was if it was used in Church, being read aloud. Judas and the rest of the false, gnostic gospels, never were. The others were, DAILY, long before they were written down. Writing them down was insignificant, and an afterthought, for entirely separate purposes. Neither is it reasonable to inflict our standards (valuing what is written over what is spoken by those who are known and trusted) upon their time.

My point on the last quote was that the bible you place so much faith in was assembled by men with their own political agendas. This makes me suspicious that the truth of the bible is based on a popularist agenda designed to lure believers from other religions as opposed to being the chronicle of the son of god.

The only thing this "assembling" process did, was spread the wealth of Scripture in the form of Liturgical worship, from one Church to another. Each had their own, but very little access to anything any other used. Nothing changed before and after this process; it's just that seeing the same Truths from another's POV can be a benefit. You level the accusation that doctrine changed because of this, which it did not. This is very basic stuff, that if you're going to form any opinion at all, you should be aware of.

 

[razeontherock]

My point is that Christ lost very little in the grand scheme of things. Christ knew what would happen and was assured of paradise. A human doesn't know what would happen and isn't assured of paradise. Therefore, logically, the human makes the greater sacrifice.

Again, Jesus is fully human so your concept is off from the start.

Next, any good sacrifice play, be it chess, baseball, or the more relevant comparison to war, results in a net GAIN. A commander who calls a sacrifice play resulting in a net loss, is a poor commander who should be overthrown, by force if necessary.

So congratulations on taking your first step in learning how to praise Jesus!

 

[Foolish]

Yes, for G-d Himself, losing the status of respect, from His own chosen people no less, and submitting to the harshest possible humiliation is *quite* something. Sorry you can't see that.



This is indeed a foolish statement, as Jesus is 100% human.

He is supposed to be omnipotent. Don't you think that worrying about his status is a bit childish? He's god, he's supposed to be on a higher plane of wisdom - to be worried about humiliation just smacks of insecurity.

So if he was 100% human, how could he defeat Rome, on his own no less, as you suggested earlier?

 

[IndieVisible]

Loss is central to sacrifice.

If he didn't lose something, then he didn't sacrifice himself for us.

He sacrificed his human life, that's not loss?

 

[Foolish]

You can read the Gospel of Judas today. And you can easily see that it is false, and why it was rejected. What you're failing to recognize, is that the criteria for "assembling the Bible" as you put it, was if it was used in Church, being read aloud. Judas and the rest of the false, gnostic gospels, never were. The others were, DAILY, long before they were written down. Writing them down was insignificant, and an afterthought, for entirely separate purposes. Neither is it reasonable to inflict our standards (valuing what is written over what is spoken by those who are known and trusted) upon their time.



The only thing this "assembling" process did, was spread the wealth of Scripture in the form of Liturgical worship, from one Church to another. Each had their own, but very little access to anything any other used. Nothing changed before and after this process; it's just that seeing the same Truths from another's POV can be a benefit. You level the accusation that doctrine changed because of this, which it did not. This is very basic stuff, that if you're going to form any opinion at all, you should be aware of.

How long were the gospels spoken before they were written down?

So Christianity's doctrine hasn't changed since 50 days after Christ died?

 

[razeontherock]

to be worried about humiliation just smacks of insecurity.

Ok, let's see your BIRTH be announced for 1,000's of years, with you being heralded as "the desire of all Nations," and everyone expecting certain things from you - and you then disappoint them all, to stick to a higher plan.

Then you will be in a position to make your comment.

So if he was 100% human, how could he defeat Rome, on his own no less, as you suggested earlier?

You inquire into a great mystery! The hypostatic union is broken down for us to understand, in the most basic and essential of all human experiences; the act leading to reproduction. Seems rather simple, doesn't it?

Yet how can one who is fully human, also be fully G-d? Or even Divine in any part, or any way?!? Yet this is what the Incarnation declares to US, that this state of existence is to be OUR existence

Recall that all Jesus had to do was make reference to the unspeakable Name of G-d when the Roman guard asked Him if He was the one they were looking for, and they all were physically bowled over. A contingent of at least 12 muscle-bound and heavily armed men who had been born and bred to be fighting machines. No contest whatsoever! Rome had nothing with which to resist then, and everything she represents will be in the same position before the Lord when He does arrive to do what was expected of Him then.

In the meantime, He has sacrificed 1,000's of years with His Bride. Again, let's see you make such a sacrifice, before you go making such judgments as you so freely assert here.

 

[Foolish]

Again, Jesus is fully human so your concept is off from the start.

Next, any good sacrifice play, be it chess, baseball, or the more relevant comparison to war, results in a net GAIN. A commander who calls a sacrifice play resulting in a net loss, is a poor commander who should be overthrown, by force if necessary.

So congratulations on taking your first step in learning how to praise Jesus!

So Christ didn't know that heaven existed and he wasn't sure he was going there? As that is the position a real 100% human would be in.

 

[razeontherock]

How long were the gospels spoken before they were written down?

From their first worship services, (approx 54 days after Jesus' death) to various Churches springing up and asking for the Liturgy to be written down, so they wouldn't mess it all up. (Certainly by 70AD, perhaps a bit sooner. Many good sources indicate 64) Compared to most works of antiquity, this is being written closer to the actual occurrenece by 100's of years!

So Christianity's doctrine hasn't changed since 50 days after Christ died?

Are you asking about some organization's policies? Because those do indeed shift far too much, despite their claims to the contrary. But the foundation of
Christianity was established long before Jesus' birth, and none of that has ever changed.