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A confused atheist.

Foolish

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1) This man you speak of is by no means "average!"

2) He did not bear the sins of the entirety of our species, having been completely sinless. You underestimate the depth and totality of this sacrifice of Jesus,' and I excuse you for doing so by assuming you understand neither the beauty of Holiness, nor the horror of sin. Neither of those concepts mean much until you've encountered God's Presence!

3) You also seem to not appreciate the fact that Jesus could have actually overthrown Rome, even after having been nailed to His Cross, which is what all of Israel expected of Him if He were actually the Messiah. By NOT doing so but obeying His Father instead, He was humiliated before His own people, and remains so to this day.

Please don't continue to insult Him by saying this was "no sacrifice." Hopefully you understand a little bit better now?

I havn't encountered god's presence. But I find It completely hilarious that you believe that christ could've defeated the might of Rome and yet refused to.

Why didn't he?

He could have made his greatness indisputable and prevented many wars and subsequent deaths. Seems silly for an omnipotent god to miss an opportunity to prevent what he must have foreseen.
 
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Foolish

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Let's see if this helps you understand:

masochism is loving the harm done to yourself. That's not why Jesus went to the Cross! He actually put that off for 1,000's of years, because He did NOT want to have to endure that suffering! He waited until human society had developed to the point that His Passion could NOT be erased from history; this was the first time such a large land mass was joined both by roads, and a common language.

Jesus went to the Cross because of His Love for G-d and man, that the wedge of sin driven between us would be made powerless, so we could be reconciled.

And therefore we urge you, be reconciled to God!

Well if god only chose that period due to the convenience of a suitable infrastructure, why didn't he wait until now? The 2 millennia that've passed are inconsequential to an immortal, so why not wait until the invention of the Internet or tv?

Indeed, why doesn't he show himself now by superimposing himself on all channels and YouTube?
 
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Foolish

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This is not what the history shows! Neither is it true what you said about Jesus' death being due to heresy, per Rome.

Trinity was established as doctrine to counteract false claims within some Christian circles of who Jesus was.

Pilate washed his hands of Jesus' death, in front of the whole crowd.

The history you refer to was principally written by the people with a vested interest in christ.

Christianity was a mere cult until the 3rd century, and the doctrine you refer to wasn't decided until centuries after christ's death. The authority of the people you mention was purely political and not divine.
 
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Foolish

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Then you will understand why it is offensive to claim that Jesus made no sacrifice. Your question here is a very basic core of Christian teaching.

Why is my opinion offensive?

It's an opinion, I'm not hurting anyone.

Besides, I didn't say he made "no sacrifice" I merely suggested that his sacrifice was lesser to other human sacrifices due to the fact that he was assured of a place in paradise.
 
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Foolish

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Hi deaver.

I love that cs Lewis quote.

I don't agree with it, but what a turn of phrase that man had !

His statement pivots on what he learned from christ's teachings: was it the "love thy fellow man" and " treat others as thou would wish those to treat you" sentiments or was it the self fulfilling I am god born of god stuff?
 
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msmorality

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Im an agnostic atheist but am really interested in religion, so I would apreciate any feedback on my musings.

From what I understand of Christianity, the central (not sole) principal of worshipping christ I that he sacrificed himself for us and our sins.

What I don't understand is that; many people have sacrificed themselves for greater causes in our history - why shouldn't we worship them?

I think a lot of people are worshiped and glorified everyday. The powerful, the famous and good decent people. But it is easier for me to worship God, because I have had the opportunity to experience how reading the Gospels have changed my life in ways I can not explain in words. It might just be something that is so personal, it can't be defined on a level of mere words.
 
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oi_antz

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Hi Foolish, nice to meet you. I appreciate your integrity. I think if you can remain persistent and honest to the very end then you will find that missing piece of the puzzle and the light will go on. Let me have a crack at helping you with that:
I havn't encountered god's presence. But I find It completely hilarious that you believe that christ could've defeated the might of Rome and yet refused to.

Why didn't he?
To teach us a lesson. The best learned lessons come by the school of hard knocks. When the weeds are sorted from the wheat, His kingdom will only consist of those who have overcome the devil, not those who have had an easy ride and indulged in the benefits of sin all their life.

I am going to introduce you to thinking of the Genesis story as prophecy rather than history. I am not saying that it is invalid to read in a literal sense, but what I am saying is that there are deep spiritual truths to be learned, which you cannot get unless you accept the story and think about it, accepting what God's Holy Spirit tells you when you read. I'll do my best to help you here by sharing what God's Holy Spirit tells me when I read it.

First off, read this verse:
Luke 17:26
“When the Son of Man returns, it will be like it was in Noah’s day.
This is telling us that there is an impending doom which is the triumphant return of Jesus with all the angels and the judgment of the world. It is interesting to read this with the prior judgment served on earth in Noah's day. When we begin to look for these such parallels in the scriptures, we begin to learn a lot from God, this is done by thinking under the influence of God's Holy Spirit. How can you expect to have this priviledge if you will not believe what He tells you? Simple answer is you can't. This is why it is necessary to believe what God says, because if you stop yourself from thinking about what God says, you really cannot blame anyone for the fact that you aren't learning from God. Someone already showed you the scripture "God is not the author of confusion". So as long as you are learning from God you will not be confused. Close your mind to what He says however, you will quickly get confused about what it means. This is referred to as "hardening of the heart", and that happens when we read something in the bible that puts a wedge between us and God. Until we repent, and that wedge is removed, we will not be able to learn from God, we will continue to get more and more confused until finally we crumble in desperation and cry out to Him for forgiveness. Either that or we die in bitterness toward Him.

So let me share with you one of the thoughts I have recently had about the Genesis account and how it relates to the story of Jesus and His sacrifice.

Jesus was not an ordinary man. This is made plain and clear by the people who knew Him and who shared their experience of Him. He performed numerous miracles, drew great crowds, was not afraid of anything, and even had power over life and death at His own will. This is what you would expect from the one and only son of God isn't it? So the Pharisee's and Saducee's of the time (herein referred to as P&S) found themselves in a bit of a power struggle with Jesus over the kingdom of God. What is the kingdom of God? It is the official representation of God to earth, therefore the legal authority of what is considered good and evil. Sound familiar? You may be on track if you think like I do that the forbidden fruit was the kingdom of God. So when you stated earlier that Jesus was in trouble for heresy, what you were saying is that the P&S actually had greater authority to command the kingdom of God than Jesus did.

What do you think Jesus' response to that claim would be?

Let me show you what it was:
Matthew 26:52-53
New Living Translation (NLT)
52 “Put away your sword,” Jesus told him. “Those who use the sword will die by the sword. 53 Don’t you realize that I could ask my Father for thousands[a] of angels to protect us, and he would send them instantly?
So what sort of picture does this draw in your mind now?

Think a moment about this verse:
John 15
22 They would not be guilty if I had not come and spoken to them. But now they have no excuse for their sin.
Do you think that the P&S were somehow confused about Jesus' position of authority? Do you think that they did not recognize Jesus as a prophet of God? Think properly won't you. Consider this verse:
John 3

1 There was a man named Nicodemus, a Jewish religious leader who was a Pharisee. 2 After dark one evening, he came to speak with Jesus. “Rabbi,” he said, “we all know that God has sent you to teach us. Your miraculous signs are evidence that God is with you.”
Here is a member of the Sanhedrin approaching Jesus in secret and confessing that they knew full well that Jesus had been sent to teach them. At this point the penny might drop for you. By the P&S act of killing Jesus and claiming the kingdom of God for their self, they have taken the forbidden fruit and brought a curse upon the entire earth - that the one and only son of God, the very Word that spoke everything into existence, was rejected by His own creation!(John 1).

What is God's response to such evil? Genesis shows us that the first thing He does is banish them from the garden (the temple is destroyed), then He places a curse upon the man and woman, that the woman would reproduce with great pain (Christian salvation requires a painful sacrifice), and the man would strive with thorns and thistles (as the gardener, his work to convert people into Christianity would be laborious). This is how I have recently read it.

It might not be a fantastic enlightenment to you, but I hope it demonstrates to you the sort of liberation we are entitled to when we accept that the story is true and begin to look for deeper meanings than what is given on the surface. Your heart is of fairly good quality, the only danger I see with you is imposing your expectations upon God instead of accepting His own wisdom. God says clearly "my ways are not your ways". This is why I would encourage you to consider asking God for wisdom when you read the bible, then you can begin to learn deeper lessons by accepting that God was actually right to do it the way He chose to do it. The bible is an open book, but it is useless without the Holy Spirit. The many who profess to know the bible in and out yet don't believe it are living testimonies of this famous quote:
John 5
38 But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe. 39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.
Notice that these people have head knowledge of the bible, yet what Jesus says is that the word is not abiding in them. The word has no life for them. The lesson to learn is that the word is dead as long as it remains on the page. The moment you take those words off the page and put them in your heart is when the words will come to life. It does require sacrifice, and only your conscience is qualified to tell you what it will cost. That is why you will need to pray to Jesus for help, because He is entitled to forgive your sins and teach you how to become holy. That is our purpose on this earth, it is to grow into wheat that He will harvest and give a place of glory in His barn (figuratively speaking about the renewed earth).

Now I will address another question you asked:

Indeed, why doesn't he show himself now by superimposing himself on all channels and YouTube?
He doesn't want us to love Him in the physical form. He wants us to be one with Him in thought and deed. Cite:
The Humbled and Exalted Christ

5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.
"Let this mind be in you". Amazing words. We are called to be just like Christ was - humble even to the point of death. You will have heard Him say "turn the other cheek", and "take up your cross and follow me". That is what it means to be Christ's disciple. His vision for the renewed earth is to be full of people who are perfectly holy in mind as He is, that means we need to overcome sin. This world is only a garden where the seeds are scattered and where wheat grows among weeds. You have the choice to become wheat should you so desire. We are given a great promise, in Revelation 2:7 He says "To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God." This means to all who conquer the devil and become Christ's disciples, we are given fruit from the tree of life. That is how the Word of God (John 1) comes off the page and comes to life within.

Hope this gives you something to think about.
 
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Godsent12

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Son, let me help you by saying, in no way can the sacrifice of Christ for the entire world be compared to those who lost their lives for a country. When Jesus died on the cross he had my sins and yours on his shoulders. So, that as we look to him, he becomes our Savior who takes away our sins. And because of what He did on Calvary you have been extended grace to see each day. For each day you see, God is saying, "Son I'm waiting for you to except what I did for you on Calvary" by making Jesus your Lord and Savior of your soul.

Let me be truthful, you are not an atheist or Agnostic and no matter how critically you try to analyze Christianity, in the very core of your being you know that God is real. If God could be seen with the naked eye's that would expel all doubts, but He is invisible. He said to Moses, "No man can see me and live!"

He waiting for you to make that step of faith, what is faith? "Faith is believing what you cannot see is real" For without faith it is impossible to please him (Hebrew 11:6). Lastly, let me say that, Salvation is the greatest miracle anyone could ever experience.
 
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chilehed

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Im an agnostic atheist but am really interested in religion, so I would apreciate any feedback on my musings.

From what I understand of Christianity, the central (not sole) principal of worshipping christ I that he sacrificed himself for us and our sins.

What I don't understand is that; many people have sacrificed themselves for greater causes in our history - why shouldn't we worship them?
Actually, the sole reason to worship Christ is that he is God.

We shouldn't worship those other people because they are not God.
 
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Foolish

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Wow oi antz that's a post and a half!

I understand what you're saying about reading the bible with an open mind and looking passed the words to get to a deeper meaning, but isn't that true of all stories, be it the ugly duckling or war and peace.

In fact, I could read about Greek mythology and find many a fable that could be revelatory (pun intended) if deeper meaning were sought.
 
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Foolish

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Hi god sent.

I am an agnostic atheist. I genuinely do not believe that god exists because there isn't any convincing evidence of his existence.

As for Jesus dying for my sins: if he exists/ed he created me with sin so that's his fault not mine. He knew that eve would take the fruit in what was an entrapment exercise.

And what about his own sins of mass genocide, industrial misogyny and support for slavery?
 
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ViaCrucis

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The history you refer to was principally written by the people with a vested interest in christ.

Christianity was a mere cult until the 3rd century, and the doctrine you refer to wasn't decided until centuries after christ's death. The authority of the people you mention was purely political and not divine.

You're thinking the 4th century, not the 3rd. Christianity was still a persecuted religion in the 3rd century. In fact the worst persecution Christians endured occurred at the end of the 3rd century under Emperor Diocletian.

As far as theology is concerned. Politics were involved, but on both sides of the debate.

Example: Constantine initially accepted the decision made by the bishops (many of whom were survivors of the persecution under Diocletian mind you). He changed his position, however, after Eusebius of Nicomedia (not to be confused with Eusebius of Caesarea who wrote the History and Life of Constantine) who was a friend and follower of Arius convinced Constantine that Arius was right. When Constantine was baptized he was baptized by Eusebius of Nicomedia (an Arian), his biographer (Eusebius of Caesarea) was at the very least sympathetic to the Arian position.

Constantine's sons, Constantius and Constans were divided in their position. Constans supported the Nicene position whereas his brother and co-emperor Constantius supported the Arian position.

This constant flux of politics infringing itself in a supremely heated theological debate in the Church continued for most of the century until Julian, who disavowed his Arian Christian upbringing and converted back to Paganism (or really his own brand of Roman Paganism) took the imperial throne. After Julian's death, the Constantinian dynasty ended and Jovian became emperor. After Jovian, Theodosius took the throne and made Nicene Christianity not only the official religion of Rome (prior to this it was simply a favored religion post-Constantine) but the only legal religion.

Arianism was officially rejected at this point, though wasn't quite as popular as it had been several decades earlier. Though it remained not only popular, but the official version of Christianity practiced among the Goths. The Visigoths who came to occupy and create a kingdom in Iberia and Gaul remained Arian for several centuries.

I'm not disputing politics weren't involved. They were. But though perhaps not in the way you were thinking, and it was a two-way street. Politics were involved on both sides of the debate.

And, just to add for the sake of clarity because this is often not understood: Both Arian and Nicene Christians believed and accepted that Jesus was Divine. Both sides called Him "God". The difference was, rather literally, a single iota. The Nicene position stated that the Son was homoousios (of same substance) with God the Father; the Arian position stated that the Son was homoiousios (of similar substance) with God the Father.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Foolish

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Actually, the sole reason to worship Christ is that he is God.

We shouldn't worship those other people because they are not God.

Why do you believe he is god?

Why not Allah, Zeus or Jupiter?

That's a Genuine question And not a wind up.

is it because the Christian story resonates with you or is it because you've been brought up in a Christian community and have never challenged the status quo?
 
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Foolish

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Hi via.

Yes, I did mean the 4th century.

I completely agree that politics were on all sides - my own personal opinion is that religion was/is used as a political tool to control the masses.

I can imagine, in the beginnings of society, it being absolutely critical to convince the public that; if you sin, we may not catch you, but god will and the punishment will be immense. Otherwise anyone could do as they wished without much chance of being caught.
 
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oi_antz

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Wow oi antz that's a post and a half!

I understand what you're saying about reading the bible with an open mind and looking passed the words to get to a deeper meaning, but isn't that true of all stories, be it the ugly duckling or war and peace.

In fact, I could read about Greek mythology and find many a fable that could be revelatory (pun intended) if deeper meaning were sought.
Very true. The bible is all about the Jewish messiah from a Christian perspective, you might find synonyms in other literature but for the official information you need to consult the official source.
 
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razeontherock

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The history you refer to was principally written by the people with a vested interest in christ.

In fact ANY of the pertinent history a Christian might refer to, was written SOLELY by ... a Christian. BY DEFINITION.

This is pretty basic, and why it is indeed foolish to even ask for a non Christian source relating to Christian claims.

Christianity was a mere cult until the 3rd century, and the doctrine you refer to wasn't decided until centuries after christ's death.

No, the Doctrine was "decided" within 50 days of Jesus' death. What you're referring to here, is something you merely have misconceptions about. You'd be surprised to learn the facts.


The authority of the people you mention was purely political and not divine.

It's very possible to state there is no such thing, but it was political power I referred to, yes. What else could it be?
 
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razeontherock

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Why is my opinion offensive?

It's an opinion, I'm not hurting anyone.

Besides, I didn't say he made "no sacrifice" I merely suggested that his sacrifice was lesser to other human sacrifices due to the fact that he was assured of a place in paradise.

No, you expressed a clear understanding that since Jesus could have not only saved Himself, but overthrown Rome, that it was quite the sacrifice not to, but to suffer and die according to the will of the Father.

You cannot cite an individual sacrifice that great, and yet Jesus' sacrifice is far more than just this!
 
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Foolish

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In fact ANY of the pertinent history a Christian might refer to, was written SOLELY by ... a Christian. BY DEFINITION.

This is pretty basic, and why it is indeed foolish to even ask for a non Christian source relating to Christian claims.



  • No, the Doctrine was "decided" within 50 days of Jesus' death. What you're referring to here, is something you merely have misconceptions about. You'd be surprised to learn the facts.



    It's very possible to state there is no such thing, but it was political power I referred to, yes. What else could it be?


  • If you only read Christian sources, then it is no wonder you don't challenge the doctrine. If I were to read only reports of the British empire from the Brits in the 19th century who had a vested interest in purveying their own version of the "truth" then I wouldn't know about the fallacies, genocides, and elements of evil that occurred in the name of the brittish empire.

    The only way to get a true foundation in any knowledge base is to read as widely as possible and, most important of all, read the competing points ofview.

    As for the doctrine being decided in 50 days after christ's death: how come there were so many competing gospels if the doctrine had already been settled? The last estimate I read was at least a dozen gospels were expunged from history (many years after christ's death) due to political whims. One such gospel was that of judas. What an interesting read that would've been.

    My point on the last quote was that the bible you place so much faith in was assembled by men with their own political agendas. This makes me suspicious that the truth of the bible is based on a popularist agenda designed to lure believers from other religions as opposed to being the chronicle of the son of god.
 
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Aeneas

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As for the doctrine being decided in 50 days after christ's death: how come there were so many competing gospels if the doctrine had already been settled? The last estimate I read was at least a dozen gospels were expunged from history (many years after christ's death) due to political whims. One such gospel was that of judas. What an interesting read that would've been.

Yes, I remember reading that part in The Da Vinci Code too.

My point on the last quote was that the bible you place so much faith in was assembled by men with their own political agendas. This makes me suspicious that the truth of the bible is based on a popularist agenda designed to lure believers from other religions as opposed to being the chronicle of the son of god.

Ok, well that sucks.
 
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