Does anyone think they will go to hell?

[Hakan101]

1 Corinthians 6:9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men[a] 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

Just so you know, the verse doesn't really mean that you can't go to heaven if you're greedy, a drunkard, or any of those minor sins. Once you're saved, whatever you were before is forgotten and whatever you still are no matter how bad doesn't really matter because otherwise you wouldn't be saved now would you.

Sigh...why do so many people forget about verse 11?

 

[chris4243]

Chris, in these last two posts it's hard to see how you are "advocating for Truth." I do try to give people the benefit of the doubt, but could you clarify?

Maybe I should also add Proverbs 15:30, "a good report maketh the bones fat."

There are many such passages, but neither of us takes them literally. Incidentally, all these passages use the same Hebrew word, which also means anoint, prosperity, and to take ashes away. While it seems like an interesting word study, it doesn't seem like it will help our OP ...

Sorry, a little sarcasm there. Historically, being fat was considered a blessing and also a sign of higher status. Only now that food is so abundant (and also the cheaper food is the more fattening) has obesity been considered anything bad. The OP was trying to equate obesity with gluttony, and they're not the same thing.

 

[chris4243]

Sigh...why do so many people forget about verse 11?

The one that says "and that is what some of you are" or the one that says "and that is what some of you were"?

 

[Curious Atheist]

The replies seem to be somewhat unanimous so far which I really didn’t expect. Maybe I have the wrong end of the stick, so there is certainly ‘food for thought’ although I don’t like that phrase. However what has been said really goes against almost everything I have heard or understood before about heaven and hell so I am really quite confused. I thought the majority would go to hell….apparently it is actually quite difficult to not go to heaven.

So it has kind of put a dead end to this question. I need to ponder on the replies, but I suppose you could continue the thread with ‘have you ever doubted your faith?’. This is quite a bit more complex than it seems, as being Christian has a tradition of being seen as being a good person, driving ‘like a Christian’ for example. Many will exaggerate their faith to fit in, I don’t mean they are faking but often don’t attend church as often as they might suggest as one example. Outwardly questioning faith can be extremely offensive to the insecure, so perhaps some questions are held back. So really what I am getting at is maybe some fear that their faith isn’t strong enough and perhaps fear this may ultimately lead to hell? As there are many good personal reasons to not lose faith, maybe some are torn between what they truly want to believe and what they do I reality?

That's funny to me, your challenges sound like excuse making for not personally studying the bible with an open heart and/or mind for God. It also sounds like you are trying to dismiss what you are not familiar with for your bigoted view of God, the bible, and Christianity as a whole. Forgive me for not caving in under you dismissive attitude, but I do want to thank you for your questions, because even if your intentions were less than honorable, your questions will be used to help others grow in their understandings and faith.

Perhaps there is a lot of truth in what you say, as I have clearly been corrected on many things I didn’t understand. But if I knew all the answers and understood Christianity in its entirety I wouldn’t come on a Christian forum and ask lots of questions. I have pretty much disagreed with most replies but I don’t see that as being dismissive, just a different point of view. For instance you see it as reading the bible with an open mind where as I see it as a very close-minded view where you already have the theory and try to make the facts fit. Without faith there wouldn’t be such thing as a creation story in modern times, as we now understand the process of natural selection. But we do not know where the first life came from, so there will still be religion to fill this gap and those that dismiss the evidence. But I am glad you see it the way I do, that my questions should just re-enforce the faith of those confident in their beliefs. I hope you also agree my questions have become a bit more mature since my first post, my first post also stated I am not trying to convert anyone which remains true. So my questions are really just for y own benefit and offers a different perspective that may not be considered or encouraged by Churches or individuals.

 

[Exial]

I'm going to go into a hole in the ground and worms will eat my face.

Do I think I will persist in some spiritual form after my brain has ceased all activity? No. But I may be pleasently suprised, or horrified at being condemned into one of the thousands of versions of the afterlife.

either way, it is of no concern to me.

 

[Emmy]

Dear Curious Atheist. Jesus gave us 2 Commandments, which contain all what God told us in His 10 Commandments. 1) Love God with all our hearts, with all our souls, and with all our minds. 2) Love our neighbour as ourselves. They are easy to understand and easy to remember. God gave us also free will, we can either follow God`s Commandments, or we can ignore them, or even go against them. God is Love, and God loves us, and to follow His loving advice, ( Commandments) is always best for us. We also know what is good, or what is Not good for us. There is also God`s eternal Law of Justice: the world knows it as " what ye sow ye will also reap." Blessings and rewards for following our Heavenly Father`s advice, and fitting consequences for ignoring, or even go against it. Jesus told us of a Place in Outer Darkness, without God`s Love or God`s Light, where there can be heard loud wailing and gnashing of teeth. That sounds to me very much like hell, without God`s Love or any of our Christian brothers and sisters. We are given free will, Curious Atheist, we can choose what we like for eternity. ( once we leave this earthly body behind us) God has also given us brains, and I say this with love, our brains will tell us where we go wrong. The Bible, God`s Word to Man, will also help.

 

[Keffiyeh]

Well, no, I'll explain in the Jewish point of view.

The spiritual afterlife is referred to in Hebrew as Olam Ha-Ba (oh-LAHM hah-BAH), the World to Come, although this term is also used to refer to the messianic age. The Olam Ha-Ba is another, higher state of being.

In the Mishnah, one rabbi says, "This world is like a lobby before the Olam Ha-Ba. Prepare yourself in the lobby so that you may enter the banquet hall." Similarly, the Talmud says, "This world is like the eve of Shabbat, and the Olam Ha-Ba is like Shabbat. He who prepares on the eve of Shabbat will have food to eat on Shabbat." We prepare ourselves for the Olam Ha-Ba through Torah study and good deeds.

The Talmud states that all Israel has a share in the Olam Ha-Ba. However, not all "shares" are equal. A particularly righteous person will have a greater share in the Olam Ha-Ba than the average person. In addition, a person can lose his share through wicked actions. There are many statements in the Talmud that a particular mitzvah will guarantee a person a place in the Olam Ha-Ba, or that a particular sin will lose a person's share in the Olam Ha-Ba, but these are generally regarded as hyperbole, excessive expressions of approval or disapproval.

Some people look at these teachings and deduce that Jews try to "earn our way into Heaven" by performing the mitzvot. This is a gross mischaracterization of our religion. It is important to remember that unlike some religions, Judaism is not focused on the question of how to get into heaven. Judaism is focused on life and how to live it. Non-Jews frequently ask me, "do you really think you're going to go to Hell if you don't do such-and-such?" It always catches me a bit off balance, because the question of where I am going after death simply doesn't enter into the equation when I think about the mitzvot. We perform the mitzvot because it is our privilege and our sacred obligation to do so. We perform them out of a sense of love and duty, not out of a desire to get something in return. In fact, one of the first bits of ethical advice in Pirkei Avot (a book of the Mishnah) is: "Be not like servants who serve their master for the sake of receiving a reward; instead, be like servants who serve their master not for the sake of receiving a reward, and let the awe of Heaven [meaning G-d, not the afterlife] be upon you."

Nevertheless, we definitely believe that your place in the Olam Ha-Ba is determined by a merit system based on your actions, not by who you are or what religion you profess. In addition, we definitely believe that humanity is capable of being considered righteous in G-d's eyes, or at least good enough to merit paradise after a suitable period of purification.

Do non-Jews have a place in Olam Ha-Ba? Although there are a few statements to the contrary in the Talmud, the predominant view of Judaism is that the righteous of all nations have a share in the Olam Ha-Ba. Statements to the contrary were not based on the notion that membership in Judaism was required to get into Olam Ha-Ba, but were grounded in the observation that non-Jews were not righteous people. If you consider the behavior of the surrounding peoples at the time that the Talmud was written, you can understand the rabbis' attitudes. By the time of Rambam, the belief was firmly entrenched that the righteous of all nations have a share in the Olam Ha-Ba.

 

[Curious Atheist]

I am starting to form the opinion (after a bit of a ponder as I like to do) that if there is a God, he/she/it is far too complicated to try and understand what ‘his’ purpose might be. We cannot even begin to try and guess what he actually wants us to do. Even if the Bible or one of the holy texts is the true word of God, it is still ultimately left to human interpretation, so is always fallible. Every message, every rule and every word can mean an infinite number of things (almost) if you want to read it a certain way.
The universe is immensely complicated and so is everything down to the sub-atomic level, but I think there is certainly more will can learn in the future with current and new technology. But as it is today we don’t have a chance of knowing what happened before the existence of the universe, so trying to fathom what created the universe and pre-universe and how something can exist outside of both is impossible. So is it just human arrogance to assume that this being’s will can be interpreted and followed? We cannot know his intentions and there is no reason to believe trying to do so gains any favour. It makes the idea of a personal God ridiculous.

This is all hypothetical of cause based on the assumption there is a purpose to life etc.

 

[Keffiyeh]

I am starting to form the opinion (after a bit of a ponder as I like to do) that if there is a God, he/she/it is far too complicated to try and understand what ‘his’ purpose might be. We cannot even begin to try and guess what he actually wants us to do. Even if the Bible or one of the holy texts is the true word of God, it is still ultimately left to human interpretation, so is always fallible. Every message, every rule and every word can mean an infinite number of things (almost) if you want to read it a certain way.
The universe is immensely complicated and so is everything down to the sub-atomic level, but I think there is certainly more will can learn in the future with current and new technology. But as it is today we don’t have a chance of knowing what happened before the existence of the universe, so trying to fathom what created the universe and pre-universe and how something can exist outside of both is impossible. So is it just human arrogance to assume that this being’s will can be interpreted and followed? We cannot know his intentions and there is no reason to believe trying to do so gains any favour. It makes the idea of a personal God ridiculous.

This is all hypothetical of cause based on the assumption there is a purpose to life etc.

Not quite, but I understand your point of view, that's what drives atheist away from the G-d of Israel.

 

[Curious Atheist]

thanks Keffiyeh for a different perspective.

I like the idea that it is actions, not religion that defines a person and that giving (time teaching/volunteering or just financial) is not seen as a way to earn good favour. I would buy in to that idea of a personal God if I wasn’t an atheist, as it makes more sense and represents a more loving rational God than what some people would claim God to be or desire. Is it not also a Jewish custom/rule to give a percentage of a person’s salary to charity?
On a slightly unsavoury topic I would be interested in why you think that history shows such prejudice towards Jews. Jews seem to have a better sense of humour about themselves than other religions from my own experience, as well as being more successful and generally pretty intelligent people. Saying something like that is obviously stereotyping, but I mean it in the nicest way if that makes any difference. I ask because I really don’t understand why Christians seem to have some underlying prejudice (I know they say Jews killed Jesus, another Jew, but really…in 2011?) as well as Muslims, not to mention how often Jews are the point of many jokes on TV (Family Guy for example if you have seen it). You never hear of Jews making a fuss about any of it though, they just get on with it and laugh it off which I can’t imagine happening with other religions or races. This world does confuse me…

 

[Curious Atheist]

Not quite, but I understand your point of view, that's what drives atheist away from the G-d of Israel.

I don't know what this means. Do you mean literally driven away from Israel the physical place or from God? Almost every idea I have seems to be antiquated, like I am always just catching up. But worse things can happen.

Why aren't Jews allowed to write God by the way I have never understood that.

 

[Curious Atheist]

Sorry, a little sarcasm there. Historically, being fat was considered a blessing and also a sign of higher status. Only now that food is so abundant (and also the cheaper food is the more fattening) has obesity been considered anything bad. The OP was trying to equate obesity with gluttony, and they're not the same thing.

glut·ton·y (gl

t

n-

)n. pl. glut·ton·ies Excess in eating or drinking.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
gluttony [ˈglʌtənɪ]n the act or practice of eating to excess

Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003




Every definition I know of gluttony suggests obesity is the result of it. I read the quotes you have from scripture and I think you are right and it is referring to a different age, where fat means prosperous as raze commented. Being fat was considered a sign of prosperity, so isn't there a contradiction here? How can you become fat without eating to excess, the definition of gluttony; deemed wrong? Whether this leads to anything aside, surely you can't have both?

 

[Keffiyeh]

thanks Keffiyeh for a different perspective.

I like the idea that it is actions, not religion that defines a person and that giving (time teaching/volunteering or just financial) is not seen as a way to earn good favour. I would buy in to that idea of a personal God if I wasn’t an atheist, as it makes more sense and represents a more loving rational God than what some people would claim God to be or desire. Is it not also a Jewish custom/rule to give a percentage of a person’s salary to charity?
On a slightly unsavoury topic I would be interested in why you think that history shows such prejudice towards Jews. Jews seem to have a better sense of humour about themselves than other religions from my own experience, as well as being more successful and generally pretty intelligent people. Saying something like that is obviously stereotyping, but I mean it in the nicest way if that makes any difference. I ask because I really don’t understand why Christians seem to have some underlying prejudice (I know they say Jews killed Jesus, another Jew, but really…in 2011?) as well as Muslims, not to mention how often Jews are the point of many jokes on TV (Family Guy for example if you have seen it). You never hear of Jews making a fuss about any of it though, they just get on with it and laugh it off which I can’t imagine happening with other religions or races. This world does confuse me…

Thanks for that, that was actually quite good to hear hehe!
To answer your questions about charities, we call it Tzedakah

Giving to the poor is an obligation in Judaism, a duty that cannot be forsaken even by those who are themselves in need. Some sages have said that tzedakah is the highest of all commandments, equal to all of them combined, and that a person who does not perform tzedakah is equivalent to an idol worshipper. This is probably hyperbole, but it illustrates the importance of tzedakah in Jewish thought. Tzedakah is one of the three acts that gain us forgiveness from our sins. The High Holiday liturgy repeatedly states that G-d has inscribed a judgment against all who have sinned, but teshuvah (repentance), tefilah (prayer) and tzedakah can alleviate the decree. See Days of Awe.

According to Jewish law, we are required to give one-tenth of our income to the poor. This is generally interpreted as one-tenth of our net income after payment of taxes. Taxes themselves do not fulfill our obligation to give tzedakah, even though a significant portion of tax revenues in America and many other countries are used to provide for the poor and needy. Those who are dependent on public assistance or living on the edge of subsistence may give less, but must still give to the extent they are able; however, no person should give so much that he would become a public burden.

The obligation to perform tzedakah can be fulfilled by giving money to the poor, to health care institutions, to synagogues or to educational institutions. It can also be fulfilled by supporting your children beyond the age when you are legally required to, or supporting your parents in their old age. The obligation includes giving to both Jews and gentiles; contrary to popular belief, Jews do not just "take care of our own." Quite the contrary, a study reported in the Jewish Journal indicated that Jewish "mega-donors" (who give more than $10 million a year to charity) found that only 6% of their mega-dollars went to specifically Jewish causes.

Judaism acknowledges that many people who ask for charity have no genuine need. In fact, the Talmud suggests that this is a good thing: if all people who asked for charity were in genuine need, we would be subject to punishment (from G-d) for refusing anyone who asked. The existence of frauds diminishes our liability for failing to give to all who ask, because we have some legitimate basis for doubting the beggar's sincerity. It is permissible to investigate the legitimacy of a charity before donating to it.

We have an obligation to avoid becoming in need of tzedakah. A person should take any work that is available, even if he thinks it is beneath his dignity, to avoid becoming a public charge.

However, if a person is truly in need and has no way to obtain money on his own he should not feel embarrassed to accept tzedakah. No person should feel too proud to take money from others. In fact, it is considered a transgression to refuse tzedakah. One source says that to make yourself suffer by refusing to accept tzedakah is equivalent to shedding your own blood.

Levels of Tzedakah

Certain kinds of tzedakah are considered more meritorious than others. The Talmud describes these different levels of tzedakah, and Rambam organized them into a list. The levels of charity, from the least meritorious to the most meritorious, are:

Giving begrudgingly
Giving less that you should, but giving it cheerfully.
Giving after being asked
Giving before being asked
Giving when you do not know the recipient's identity, but the recipient knows your identity
Giving when you know the recipient's identity, but the recipient doesn't know your identity
Giving when neither party knows the other's identity
Enabling the recipient to become self-reliant

I give 10% of my earnings to charities or synagogues, I like to give it to different causes each year or month, the earnings of my organization and job are not combined so I go different ways for each, for example, Israeli Keffiyeh - Semitic Scarf - Keffiyeh (my website) goes to Israel, my day job, goes to my shul (synagogue)

And to answer the other questions, in why the non-Jews always laugh, make jokes, or hate us, well, we been here for ages and we're a small nation,
Yes the Christians believe we killed Y'shuah, and the Muslims believe we killed Mohammed, so understand the anti-Semitism created towards the nation of Israel (The Jews),
In today's world we fight Anti-Semitism, and terrorism not only in Israel but worldwide, Anti-Semitism has spread, the reason we don't make a fuss about jokes or anything it's simply because we try to be role models as we represent that we're not only Jewish but represent a whole nation so we try to be in our best behaviour most of the time, and well.. we can't resist a good Jewish joke once in a while.

 

[Keffiyeh]

Not quite, but I understand your point of view, that's what drives atheist away from the G-d of Israel.

I don't know what this means. Do you mean literally driven away from Israel the physical place or from God? Almost every idea I have seems to be antiquated, like I am always just catching up. But worse things can happen.

Why aren't Jews allowed to write God by the way I have never understood that.

Away from the G-d of Israel, as the G-d who took us out of Egypt, G-d of Abraham, Jacob, Isaiah, Moses.
Ideas that are not focus on the Torah will drive people away from the truth, the literal word from G-d to Moses, the Torah as we believe to be the true word of Ha-Shem.

And..

Jews do not casually write any Name of G-d. This practice does not come from the commandment not to take the Lord's Name in vain, as many suppose. In Jewish thought, that commandment refers solely to oath-taking, and is a prohibition against swearing by G-d's Name falsely or frivolously (the word normally translated as "in vain" literally means "for falsehood").

Judaism does not prohibit writing the Name of G-d per se; it prohibits only erasing or defacing a Name of G-d. However, observant Jews avoid writing any Name of G-d casually because of the risk that the written Name might later be defaced, obliterated or destroyed accidentally or by one who does not know better.

The commandment not to erase or deface the name of G-d comes from Deut. 12:3. In that passage, the people are commanded that when they take over the promised land, they should destroy all things related to the idolatrous religions of that region, and should utterly destroy the names of the local deities. Immediately afterwards, we are commanded not to do the same to our G-d. From this, the rabbis inferred that we are commanded not to destroy any holy thing, and not to erase or deface a Name of G-d.

It is worth noting that this prohibition against erasing or defacing Names of G-d applies only to Names that are written in some kind of permanent form. Orthodox rabbis have held that writing on a computer is not a permanent form, thus it is not a violation to type G-d's Name into a computer and then backspace over it or cut and paste it, or copy and delete files with G-d's Name in them. However, once you print the document out, it becomes a permanent form. That is why observant Jews avoid writing a Name of G-d online: because there is a risk that someone else will print it out and deface it. See a 1998 discussion of the issue at The Sanctity of G-d's Name, Part 1: Erasing Sacred Texts from a Computer Screen if you're interested, but be aware that the lengthy article is thick with technical religious jargon, not always explained.

Normally, we avoid writing the Name by substituting letters or syllables, for example, writing "G-d" instead of "God." In addition, the number 15, which would ordinarily be written in Hebrew as Yod-Hei (10-5), is normally written as Teit-Vav (9-6), because Yod-Hei is a Name.

 

[Curious Atheist]

I feel like I should test the water

Why do Jews has big Noses?

Because air is free!

That is the only one I know, hopefully not offensive. I do love racist jokes I actively encourage it as if you laugh at something it loses it's power and you see how silly it is.

Thanks for the replies. I would be interested to see reliable statistics on who gives most to charity, most of the people I meet are atheist and all claim to give, but I don't know how it compares to the religious. I don't think the majoirty give as high as 10% and most wouldn't like to boast about it anyway I imagine

 

[chris4243]

glut·ton·y (gl

t

n-

)n. pl. glut·ton·ies Excess in eating or drinking.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
gluttony [ˈglʌtənɪ]n the act or practice of eating to excess

Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003

Every definition I know of gluttony suggests obesity is the result of it. I read the quotes you have from scripture and I think you are right and it is referring to a different age, where fat means prosperous as raze commented. Being fat was considered a sign of prosperity, so isn't there a contradiction here? How can you become fat without eating to excess, the definition of gluttony; deemed wrong? Whether this leads to anything aside, surely you can't have both?

Even so, I don't know any Christians who would define gluttony in terms of excess calories. Rather it is giving undue importance to food. Just to give some examples:
1) An actor must gain 200 pounds for a film, he stuffs his face with 10,000 calories a day.
2) Soldiers in enemy territory have run low on supplies, so everyone is at quarter rations. One of the soldiers sneaks another quarter ration, so that he's eating half rations.

Who is the glutton?

 

[razeontherock]

Sorry, a little sarcasm there. Historically, being fat was considered a blessing and also a sign of higher status. Only now that food is so abundant (and also the cheaper food is the more fattening) has obesity been considered anything bad. The OP was trying to equate obesity with gluttony, and they're not the same thing.

Ok, this is what I thought. And yet I think further clarity is needed. When we see our English rendition of the OT "fat," what do we have to compare that to? Obese? Thick and strong, but not defined? Or perhaps is it primarily Spiritual?

 

[razeontherock]

what has been said really goes against almost everything I have heard or understood before about heaven and hell so I am really quite confused. I thought the majority would go to hell….apparently it is actually quite difficult to not go to heaven.

I suppose you could continue the thread with ‘have you ever doubted your faith?’.

Outwardly questioning faith can be extremely offensive to the insecure, so perhaps some questions are held back.

I appreciate your honesty. Please consider that those you are interacting with here, are pretty "into" Christianity, otherwise we wouldn't be in this particular sub-forum. So we don't represent a cross-sector of population well at all, but hopefully do represent what the Bible actually teaches, albeit with varying perspectives. ALL of our perspectives are (apparently) from people who do indeed perceive hell as something we'd have to go out of our way to fall into The illustration of a path will serve us well here: picture if you will a mountain that we are all trying to ascend, and there are burning lava pits around the bottom. We're looking down on those from various vantage points, all around this mountain. You may be finding yourself surrounded by those same lava pits, not sure how to avoid them, and hearing strange voices (us) giving you ideas about how to proceed

I think this is a rather apt comparison, and urge you to proceed ... with caution. Fortunately there is no rush! (LOTS of Scripture to this effect, which tells me it's a point that's VERY important to G-d)

I'll also point out that on CF, many who are secure in their Faith can be seen outwardly questioning the Faith, and I congratulate you on the perception that this is a sign of strength. Often it will take the form of debate, argument, and sometimes will even get downright nasty, with emotions flaring way out of control. All of this is well within the process I described above.

Perhaps there is a lot of truth in what you say, as I have clearly been corrected on many things I didn’t understand. But if I knew all the answers and understood Christianity in its entirety I wouldn’t come on a Christian forum and ask lots of questions.

What a wonderful attitude! Sometimes CF can be refreshing, even when engaging an atheist. Thank you. And for the record, even the most veteran Christians here, should never approach w/o the attitude that they are here to learn, even from unbelievers. (Which in no way minimizes what an individual may have to share)

 

[razeontherock]

I am starting to form the opinion (after a bit of a ponder as I like to do) that if there is a God, he/she/it is far too complicated to try and understand what ‘his’ purpose might be.

Would you like to know how the Bible describes what you express here? These are good things You are also highlighting the need for Divine revelation. You also might find it interesting that what our Jewish friend has posted very much agrees with Christianity, (C) for the most part. I'm not sure if those few things where C disagrees are obvious to you or not, but I'll ignore that for now.

We cannot even begin to try and guess what he actually wants us to do. Even if the Bible or one of the holy texts is the true word of God, it is still ultimately left to human interpretation, so is always fallible. Every message, every rule and every word can mean an infinite number of things (almost) if you want to read it a certain way.

So is it just human arrogance to assume that this being’s will can be interpreted and followed? We cannot know his intentions and there is no reason to believe trying to do so gains any favour. It makes the idea of a personal God ridiculous.

You have many good thoughts here. I will point out your conclusion is nihilistic, and strongly suggest you continue to search for a better resolution than that. I will never minimize your own search for Truth, and I consistently try to avoid spelling everything out - so much so that many are frustrated with me.

That's ok, one thing G-d values is our own personal effort and struggle, which is infinitely more palatable to me than mere cowering obedience to some authoritarian.

Some of what you write here is kinda sorta like a Deist. Have you ever read Ben Franklin's autobiography? There is little Spiritual content in it in terms of quantity, but in terms of weight and impact, it is rich in content! There is one particular exercise he developed, which is non-religious in nature, wonderfully insightful, and when presented to others, they have described it to me as being Deistic. Ben wasn't a Deist in any sense of the word we use the word today, but I can furnish you a link if you want, and you may find Deism better than atheism. It is also not difficult at all to go from Deism to a rational Christianity.

 

[razeontherock]

On a slightly unsavoury topic I would be interested in why you think that history shows such prejudice towards Jews.

Where I grew up, two Junior High Schools of equal population merged into one High School. Mine was almost 100% Christian, while the other was almost 100% Jewish. I have known many with the tattoos from WWII concentration camps, have observed a lot of what you raise here, and pondered it much. I truly believe that the Blessing G-d's chosen people have, make others hate them. I see no justification whatsoever for any C to connect Judaism in their mind to "Christ killer;" that is to thoroughly miss the whole point of the Gospel. And yet you correctly point out, some C's do this, even today. I'd like to think it's merely utter thoughtlessness, but I can't be sure there's not something more sinister at work involved in that.

Another point is, both Judaism and C altered themselves to create a total separation from each other, starting perhaps as late as 70AD and completing no later than 150AD. Personally, I'm curious to uncover what these Faiths were like from 33 - 70AD.