Sins that don't harm others

[Curious Atheist]

This is one of my quickest questions I think.

I understand why 'thou shalt not kill' or steal etc as it directly harms another person/affects their free will.

Why however does God care about what we do when we don't harm others? Apparently we can't discuss homosexuality which is a shame as it is a prime example.
But what about gluttony? Yes you are harming the body God gave you, but so does almost anything you do. It would be like making skateboarding a sin because you might fall and harm yourself.

So when something is consentual, unharmful to others or even yourself and has no effect on your decision making or your ability to be a good person, does God condemn it? Why do we not have the free will to have sex with someone we love unless we have signed a piece of legally binding paper? What difference does it make to God?

I suppose some might say 'God creates morals', but didn't he originally make it immoral to eat pork for example?

Thanks

 

[Incariol]

So when something is consentual, unharmful to others or even yourself and has no effect on your decision making or your ability to be a good person, does God condemn it?

No, because that is by definition not sinful.

Why do we not have the free will to have sex with someone we love unless we have signed a piece of legally binding paper?

Because that is sinful, for whatever reason. And it isn't about the the marriage license, but the Christian sacrament of marriage, whatever form that takes across various denominations.

What difference does it make to God?

"But, as we have already seen, men, foolish as they are, thought little of the grace they had received, and turned away from God. They defiled their own soul so completely that they not only lost their apprehension of God, but invented for themselves other gods of various kinds." --St. Athanasius, De Incarnatione Verbi Dei

I suppose some might say 'God creates morals', but didn't he originally make it immoral to eat pork for example?

Thanks

Sort of, but only to make a point. The Old Testament law was basically an object lesson, it was never supposed to be permanent.

 

[Curious Atheist]

[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]So when something is consentual, unharmful to others or even yourself and has no effect on your decision making or your ability to be a good person, does God condemn it?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]No, because that is by definition not sinful.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Thanks for your reply, but sorry it doesn’t make sense. If the above is fine and not a sin, then how is having sex before marriage sinful, like your quote below? They directly contradict each other when referring to consensual sex.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“Because that is sinful, for whatever reason. And it isn't about the the marriage license, but the Christian sacrament of marriage, whatever form that takes across various denominations.”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“For whatever reason” isn’t answering my question. Have you never questioned what this reason might be? Since God is such a fan of free will, you would think he would have good reason to deprive your freedom to do certain things. Also can you not be everything a faithful couple would be without the paper, so it is still respecting the ‘sanctity of marriage’ just not legally? It just seems like God likes red tape…[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Sort of, but only to make a point. The Old Testament law was basically an object lesson, it was never supposed to be permanent.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
Ok, so what did humanity learn or benefit from this particular object lesson? How did not eating pork help us become more like God? If there is a good reason God makes these rules then you have answered my question, or at least one point of view.

 

[Incariol]

[FONT=&quot]Thanks for your reply, but sorry it doesn’t make sense. If the above is fine and not a sin, then how is having sex before marriage sinful, like your quote below? They directly contradict each other when referring to consensual sex.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]What are you talking about? Sex before marriage is a sin, and sin harms you. There is no contradiction. Things that harm you are sinful, things that don't are not. Sex before marriage is a sin, and therefore spiritually harmful.[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]“Because that is sinful, for whatever reason. And it isn't about the the marriage license, but the Christian sacrament of marriage, whatever form that takes across various denominations.”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“For whatever reason” isn’t answering my question.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]Oh well.
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] Have you never questioned what this reason might be?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]No.[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] Since God is such a fan of free will, you would think he would have good reason to deprive your freedom to do certain things.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]Yes.
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] Also can you not be everything a faithful couple would be without the paper,[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]Can an unmarried couple be everything a married couple would be? No.
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] so it is still respecting the ‘sanctity of marriage’ just not legally? It just seems like God likes
red tape…[/FONT]

That's nice. I've already explained to you why sin is bad, if you want to dismiss that as "red tape", feel free.

Ok, so what did humanity learn or benefit from this particular object lesson? How did not eating pork help us become more like God? If there is a good reason God makes these rules then you have answered my question, or at least one point of view.

Jesus and the New Covenant.

"These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ." --Colossians 2:17


Also, quote tags. Learn to use them.

 

[Curious Atheist]

[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]What are you talking about? Sex before marriage is a sin, and sin harms you. There is no contradiction. Things that harm you are sinful, things that don't are not. Sex before marriage is a sin, and therefore spiritually harmful.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Right...you said anything that doesn’t harm others is not a sin. Sex before marriage doesn’t do any harm, so why should it be a sin? You are saying sex before marriage is harmful because it is a sin, which is a non-sensical argument.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Oh well.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]If you aren’t interested in answering my questions, please don’t reply to any of my threads…simple really. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Have you never questioned what this reason might be?[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]No.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Well at least you are honest in your blind faith, congratulations.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Since God is such a fan of free will, you would think he would have good reason to deprive your freedom to do certain things.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Yes.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Yet you admit you never even thought to think what this might be? Why don’t you care? Surely if you love God you would try to understand him the best you can, to respect his creation and rules fully?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Can an unmarried couple be everything a married couple would be? No.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]What do they lack apart from the paper? [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]That's nice. I've already explained to you why sin is bad, if you want to dismiss that as "red tape", feel free.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]You explained nothing, you said ‘sin is harmful’ but my question wasn’t a definition of sin. It is why something clearly not harmful would be classed as sin, but you have already shown the attitude you don’t really want to answer my questions.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Ok, so what did humanity learn or benefit from this particular object lesson? How did not eating pork help us become more like God? If there is a good reason God makes these rules then you have answered my question, or at least one point of view.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Jesus and the New Covenant.

"These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ." --Colossians 2:17[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]What the hell does this mean? Why can’t you just answer my question, how did not eating pork help us become more like God? Quoting scripture isn’t very helpful when you are talking to an atheist.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
Also, quote tags. Learn to use them.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
You forgot the magic word, sorry. I prefer my way but I will do a deal with you if you like. I will ‘learn’ to use quote tags if you learn how to think.

 

[drich0150]

This is one of my quickest questions I think.

I understand why 'thou shalt not kill' or steal etc as it directly harms another person/affects their free will.

actually, no. These are sins only for one reason, they go against the expressed will of God.

Why however does God care about what we do when we don't harm others? Apparently we can't discuss homosexuality which is a shame as it is a prime example.

Again there is only one qualifier for sin. God's expressed will. Nothing else is taken into account when identifying sin.

But what about gluttony?

Gluttony is not a biblically based sin. Yes it is frown upon in the bible, but it is not actually identified as a sin. "We" do not have a "Thou shalt not" when it comes to gluttony. That said, in the tradition of the church many have taken the frown down upon aspects of gluttony as the justification for calling it a sin. It just depends on who you speak with, and what they tie their sense of righteousness to.

So when something is consensual, harmful to others or even yourself and has no effect on your decision making or your ability to be a good person, does God condemn it?

yes

Why do we not have the free will to have sex with someone we love unless we have signed a piece of legally binding paper? What difference does it make to God?

Because That paper represented the first covenant He established between Himself, Man and Woman. Marriage is His sacred institution and not ours.

I suppose some might say 'God creates morals', but didn't he originally make it immoral to eat pork for example?

Morality is mans attempt to rewrite God "Righteousness" to allow for the sins man is willing to live with. God created Righteousness which does not allow for any sin. So no God did not create morality, man did.

And no it was not immoral to eat pork. It was unlawful to eat any part of an unclean animal, nor an unclean part of a clean animal.

 

[Curious Atheist]

[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]actually, no. These are sins only for one reason, they go against the expressed will of God.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Again there is only one qualifier for sin. God's expressed will. Nothing else is taken into account when identifying sin.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Would I be right in saying only performing sin condemns you to hell? Therefore anything we perceive as immoral isn’t sin unless expressly mentioned in scripture as being thus. Where does it mention that torture is a sin? Or rape, paedophilia, corruption, bribery, sexism, slavery etc or the other examples where society condemns an action as immoral but isn’t expressly written as sin in the bible?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]But my question was WHY God cares about these things, not the definition of sin.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]So when something is consensual, harmful to others or even yourself and has no effect on your decision making or your ability to be a good person, does God condemn it?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Yes[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]That wasn’t intended as a closed question. So to get the ball rolling, why does God condemn it since you agree that he does.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Because That paper represented the first covenant He established between Himself, Man and Woman. Marriage is His sacred institution and not ours.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]But what is the purpose of the ‘sacred institution’ as it doesn’t arguably make any difference to how much you love or are faithful/good to someone or by any other measure? Why does it matter somuch to God that without it he will condemn you to an eternity of torture.[/FONT]

 

[Curious Atheist]

To avoid this debate becoming stagnant, can everyone please avoid defining sin and give possible reasons WHY they are sin

 

[Rhamiel]

sin is sin because it hurts a person

we were made to love God
when we love ourself more then we should it is called Pride
when we love food more then we should it is called Gluttony
when we love things more then we should it is called Greed

I am sure you have an idea what it means to be mentally unbalanced (not saying you are just that you have a concept of it)
well these sins are what you could call being "spiritually unbalanced)

we are trained to think of the physical world as "real" and spiritual stuff as just subjective, this is not the right way to look at things

 

[Curious Atheist]

sin is sin because it hurts a person

we were made to love God
when we love ourself more then we should it is called Pride
when we love food more then we should it is called Gluttony
when we love things more then we should it is called Greed

I am sure you have an idea what it means to be mentally unbalanced (not saying you are just that you have a concept of it)
well these sins are what you could call being "spiritually unbalanced)

we are trained to think of the physical world as "real" and spiritual stuff as just subjective, this is not the right way to look at things

Ok....so use a specific example, why does having sex before marriage 'hurt a person' in anyway whatsoever?? You are just defining sin, not explaining any possible reason it might be a sin.

 

[AlexBP]

Ok....so use a specific example, why does having sex before marriage 'hurt a person' in anyway whatsoever??

Firstly, by the obvious effects that even the non-religious can recognize, such as STDs, unwanted pregnancies, emotional effects such as jealousy and possessiveness, and the fact that people who constantly arouse themselves do stupid things because they lack self-control in all areas of life.

Second, because though some refuse to acknowledge it, human sexual desires are a very powerful force. If many individuals refuse to control their sexuality and encourage others to remove controls in the same way, eventually it becomes a society-wide problem. In the absence of social limits on sexuality, crime, illegitimacy, broken marriages, and all the attendant negative effects on society. I would recommend the article Sex & Consequences, which summarizes research linking strong family values to good social health.

 

[Curious Atheist]

Firstly, by the obvious effects that even the non-religious can recognize, such as STDs, unwanted pregnancies, emotional effects such as jealousy and possessiveness, and the fact that people who constantly arouse themselves do stupid things because they lack self-control in all areas of life.

Firstly, thanks for being the first to answer my question directly. But I don't follow your logic, as STD's and unwanted pregnancies have nothing to do with marriage, it merely requires the use of contraceptives. Neither is jealously or possessiveness any less likely in a married couple. But your last point may be valid in some individuals who lack self-control, but a sex addict is a sex addict regardless of if they choose to marry. Likewise we don’t all lack self-control or a marriage could never be a faithful one.

Second, because though some refuse to acknowledge it, human sexual desires are a very powerful force. If many individuals refuse to control their sexuality and encourage others to remove controls in the same way, eventually it becomes a society-wide problem.

If we compare the USA to much of Europe we should see that EU has all of the 'problems' you claim will become widespread. The only problems I see are world-wide which include child pregnancy, which seems to be more common among the poor and poorly educated. Better education about contraceptives would help this, I don't see how getting married would help educate people, nor prevent an unwanted pregnancy.

Using celibacy as an example, you must be aware of what happens when people try to totally suppress sexual desire? So again i agree sexual urges can be very powerful but when they are suppressed it can be dangerous. Just look at all of the media surrounding paedophilia amongst Catholic priests, it directly correlates to celibacy and sexual frustration.

In the absence of social limits on sexuality, crime, illegitimacy, broken marriages, and all the attendant negative effects on society. I would recommend the article Sex & Consequences, which summarizes research linking strong family values to good social health

I will try and read your article shortly. However if it is regarding strong family values then it is not relevant, as marriage has nothing to do with a strong family. I would agree those from a broken home can be psychologically harmed, but marriage doesn't solve this either. It could even be argued that without the distress a divorce creates, the damage could be reduced, but that is just my own speculation. Can you give an example where sex before marriage increases the chance of being a criminal?
[FONT=&quot]I think you are referring to ‘[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]s and harlots’ to base your arguments on, when that is a generalisation. Someone who would sleep around isn’t going to suddenly stop because they signed a piece of paper, you are faithful due to love and respect and it can’t be forced.[/FONT]

 

[chilehed]

There is no such thing as a sin that harms no one but the sinner.

 

[Curious Atheist]

There is no such thing as a sin that harms no one but the sinner.

Sex before marriage, homosexuality, gluttony etc...obviously consentual adults. Where is the harm?
If you need to take it to extremes to make a point, I would suggest your point isn't a very good one. ie 'being so obese you die young' isn't the same as indulging in a nice curry a bit too often.

 

[AlexBP]

But I don't follow your logic, as STD's and unwanted pregnancies have nothing to do with marriage, it merely requires the use of contraceptives.

They have a great deal to do with marriage. If everyone married a single partner and remained faithful to that partner, there could be no spread of STDs. Likewise unplanned pregnancies are obviously much more likely when people are hooking up with a new partner every few days or hours, as opposed to being in faithful marriages.

Neither is jealously or possessiveness any less likely in a married couple.

Sure it is. If a couple is married and faithful, there's no reason either husband or wife to be jealous of their partner's other partners, because those other partners simply don't exist. In novels by folks such as Robert Heinlein and Ayn Rand, folks have as many partners as they please and the problem of jealousy simply does not arise. But real life is not a novel, and jealousy does arise. The only way to avoid it is to avoid having multiple partners.

But your last point may be valid in some individuals who lack self-control, but a sex addict is a sex addict regardless of if they choose to marry. Likewise we don’t all lack self-control or a marriage could never be a faithful one.

Every human is both an individual and a social creature. From the social side, if we have a culture that values marriage and encourages fidelity, this will encourage individuals to develop and exercise self-control and to feel guilt when they fail. On the other hand, if we normalize easy sex, hook-up culture, and adultery, we will push individuals in the opposite direction.

 

[Emmy]

Dear Curious Atheist. In Matthew, Jesus gave us the two Commandments on which hang all the Law and the Prophets. 1) Love God with all our hearts, with all our souls, and with all our minds. 2) Love our neighbour as ourselves. You mention having sex-relations will hurt no-one and is therefore no sin. What about all the children being born without parents? or the following estrangements with the parents of the people concerned? or any other unfortunate results? Is there no sin involved? God is Love, and God wants loving children/sons and daughters, is that being loving?? We have been given much time to become as God wants us to be: and what does God want from us? Stop being selfish, treating all we know and all we meet as we would love to be treated: with kindness and consideration, remembering who made us in His image, and wants us to love and care for our neighbour. It is not easy to let go of our selfishness and instant gratification, but we have Jesus to help us, and the Holy Spirit, also. Jesus told us to " ask and ye will receive," then we thank God and use our strenghtening gifts to follow God`s Commandments: to love and to care. We will stumble and fail often, but we ask God to forgive us, and God will forgive us as we will forgive others. To love is not only a feel-good factor, it is also a " doing-word," and we will notice that we gradually are changing into the men and women, which God wants to live eternally with. Jesus is waiting to help and guide us, Jesus is our Saviour, and Jesus will lead us back to where we came from. But first we have to " Repent," to change from being selfish and doing our own thing, to following Jesus, and God`s Commandments to love selflessly and freely: God with all our beings, and our neighbour as ourselves. I say this with love, Curious Atheist. Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ.

 

[jpcedotal]

sin is not what we do

 

[ebia]

Curious Atheist: Is driving on the left- hand side of the road sinful?

 

[ViaCrucis]

This is one of my quickest questions I think.

I understand why 'thou shalt not kill' or steal etc as it directly harms another person/affects their free will.

Why however does God care about what we do when we don't harm others? Apparently we can't discuss homosexuality which is a shame as it is a prime example.
But what about gluttony? Yes you are harming the body God gave you, but so does almost anything you do. It would be like making skateboarding a sin because you might fall and harm yourself.

So when something is consentual, unharmful to others or even yourself and has no effect on your decision making or your ability to be a good person, does God condemn it? Why do we not have the free will to have sex with someone we love unless we have signed a piece of legally binding paper? What difference does it make to God?

I suppose some might say 'God creates morals', but didn't he originally make it immoral to eat pork for example?

Thanks

I'm not convinced that we can wholly separate self-harm from other-harm. Not that there aren't things which effect only ourselves and not others, but the reality of human relationships means that we probably cannot completely separate self from the other. That's not necessarily the most popular thought in a Western society that values rugged individualism.

There is a term used among the Bantu-speaking people of southern Africa, the word is ubuntu. Ubuntu has a number of translations, one being "humanity", but the most straightforward translation is "I am because you are." It means that ultimately our humanity is shared in and with others, my unique human personhood does not exist in a vacuum, but is found in others, in you and everyone else. Our humanity is constituted together in and with one another. To share together, to benefit one another, this is at the heart of what it means to be authentically human.

It's a concept that I've tried to take to heart.

To be mindful that no action is without consequence to others, to be me--for good or ill--has an effect and consequence for others.

Sin, rarely if ever, effects only ourselves.

Ubuntu. I am because you are.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[chilehed]

I'm not taking anything to an extreme. I'm merely stating a fact: by definition, there is no such thing as a sin which harms only the sinner. It has to do with our nature as human beings. We are not islands unto ourselves.