Indoctrinating children

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I will answer when I have a bit more time later. But firstly, nearly all of you have completely misunderstood and missed the point. Please read the following from wiki:

Indoctrination is the process of inculcating ideas, attitudes, cognitive strategies or a professional methodology (see doctrine).[1] It is often distinguished from education by the fact that the indoctrinated person is expected not to question or critically examine the doctrine they have learned.[2] As such the term may be used pejoratively, often in the context of education, political opinions, theology or religious dogma. Instruction in the scientific method, in particular, cannot properly be called indoctrination, in the sense that the fundamental principles of science call for critical self-evaluation and skeptical scrutiny of one's own ideas, a stance outside any doctrine.[3] In practice, however, a certain level of non-rational indoctrination, usually seen as miseducative, is invariably present.[4] The term is closely linked to socialization; in common discourse, indoctrination is often associated with negative connotations, while socialization refers to cultural or educational learning.

and this:

Religious indoctrination, the original sense of indoctrination, refers to a process of imparting doctrine in an authoritative way, as in catechism. Most religious groups among the revealed religions instruct new members in the principles of the religion; this is now not usually referred to as indoctrination by the religions themselves, in part because of the negative connotations the word has acquired. Mystery religions require a period of indoctrination before granting access to esoteric knowledge. (cf. Information security)
As a pejorative term indoctrination implies forcibly or coercively causing people to act and think on the basis of a certain ideology.[5] Some secular critics[who?] maintain that all religions indoctrinate their adherents, as children, and the accusation is made in the case of religious extremism. Sects such as Scientology use personality tests and peer pressures to indoctrinate new members.[6] Some religions have commitment ceremonies for children 13 years and younger, such as Bar Mitzvah, Confirmation, and Shichi-Go-San. In Buddhism Temple boys are encouraged to follow the faith while still very young.[citation needed] Critics of religion, such as Richard Dawkins, maintain that the children of religious parents are often unfairly indoctrinated.[7] The process of subjecting children to complex initiation rituals before they are able to critically assess the event is seen by Dawkins and other critics of religion as cruel.
 
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Catherineanne

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But firstly, nearly all of you have completely misunderstood and missed the point.

We missed nothing. You failed to explain the distinction between bringing a child up within a faith and as a member of a church, and force feeding that child a very rigid set of beliefs.

I don't know if you happen to be a parent, but in my experience, forcing children to believe what you want them to believe is not as easy as you might imagine. Children have this rather endearing habit of thinking for themselves, and of making decisions for themselves.

Mr Dawkins might think that my having my d baptised when she was a baby was cruel, but quite frankly I don't care. I know for a fact that if my d has a child or children, they will be baptised in the same way, and quite right too. I won't have to force it; it will happen. And it will happen because my d and I share a faith, a tradition and a culture, and we value it very highly. Who on earth does Mr D think he is, that he can sneer at any of this, or sit in judgement of it?
 
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We missed nothing. You failed to explain the distinction between bringing a child up within a faith and as a member of a church, and force feeding that child a very rigid set of beliefs.

Well I have been trying, I will try to do a better job. Firstly, are you familiar with the term ‘apostasy’? It refers to the punishment in Islam for leaving the faith, that punishment being death. Would you agree this prevents freedom of choice?
‘But there is no apostasy in Christianity’ is more than likely your first thought. Well, isn’t there? What do you preach happens to non-believers when they die? We burn in hell for eternity. So when you teach this to a young child they will take it as unquestionable fact, the fear of hell is very real and a very real motivator to keep holding on to faith and rejecting that which questions it. They aren’t condemned to death, but atheists are certainly treated with suspicion at the very least and outcast as immoral sinners by many fellow Christians, it is far from uncommon for a child to be shunned by a family for leaving the faith. There is such an overpowering force to keep their faith ‘just in case’ or likewise they scarcely have a choice at all.
Now, you believe hell is real and you feel the need to teach this to your child in order to protect them from this terrible fate. But this is a minority belief based on faith that isn’t backed up with an evidence. No-one knows what happens when you die, there is certainly nothing to suggest there is anything beyond this world. But like I must have repeated a dozen time in this thread alone, I see no problem with teaching the bible to children, maybe they will learn a good moral lesson and like the stories. I am objection to, and only to the indoctrination where other options aren’t given. For example, tell a child you believe in Noah’s ark, talking snakes and everything popped in to existing less than 10,000 years ago by magic if you wish. However, why not ALSO teach them the scientific equivalent, or even Islamic or Hindu? Why not afford them the opportunity to learn about evolution and see if that makes more sense to them?

I don't know if you happen to be a parent, but in my experience, forcing children to believe what you want them to believe is not as easy as you might imagine. Children have this rather endearing habit of thinking for themselves, and of making decisions for themselves.


I am not a parent, I am 23 and not mature or responsible enough to care for another human being. I am aware this makes my opinion less valid and I may be ignorant to many things. I am here to learn from other peoples points of view as well as putting my own forward for debate. However the above explains why I think they are less likely to think for themselves when preached any religion as fact. They aren’t being taught to rationalise for themselves, they are learning to take what they are told as fact unquestionably. For example, examine the Noah’s ark story and it is absurd requiring drastic re-interpretation and stretches of the imagination to even become laughable.

Mr Dawkins might think that my having my d baptised when she was a baby was cruel, but quite frankly I don't care. I know for a fact that if my d has a child or children, they will be baptised in the same way, and quite right too. I won't have to force it; it will happen. And it will happen because my d and I share a faith, a tradition and a culture, and we value it very highly. Who on earth does Mr D think he is, that he can sneer at any of this, or sit in judgement of it?


I don’t think Dawkins would care much about you putting water on your baby’s head, after all it is nothing but water. So pull out a super-soaker and go crazy if it appeases your deity, I don’t think anyone cares unless they are the ‘Wicked Witch of the West’. What is curious is why you think it is ‘quite right’ yet you can’t see the benefit of a bah-mitzvah or a Sundance, voodoo or any magical ceremony. You have ‘blind faith’, your parents must be very proud.
 
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Catherineanne

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‘But there is no apostasy in Christianity’ is more than likely your first thought. Well, isn’t there? What do you preach happens to non-believers when they die? We burn in hell for eternity.

I am afraid you are mistaken in your assumptions. Not all Christians are the same; some of us are just as sensible and rational as anyone else.

I happen to be an Anglican. Anglicans for the most part do not believe in a literal hell of fire and brimstone, therefore non believers will not burn in hell for eternity; the very idea is nonsense, to be honest.

Believers are taken to the Lord. Non believers will be subject to his love, mercy and compassion, and how he chooses to express that love is not up to me, but I rely on it just as much as anyone else.

I agree with you that teaching very young children about a literal hellfire constitutes child abuse. But that is a long way from saying that any and all religious teaching and ritual is out of place, or that baptism should not happen to young babies.
 
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Catherineanne

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I don’t think Dawkins would care much about you putting water on your baby’s head, after all it is nothing but water. So pull out a super-soaker and go crazy if it appeases your deity, I don’t think anyone cares unless they are the ‘Wicked Witch of the West’. What is curious is why you think it is ‘quite right’ yet you can’t see the benefit of a bah-mitzvah or a Sundance, voodoo or any magical ceremony. You have ‘blind faith’, your parents must be very proud.

Nice attitude.

I would have thought it must be apparent from my posts that my faith is alive and thinking, not blind. But perhaps not.

However, once again, you have made some erroneous assumptions. I have no problem with bar mitzvah for Jewish boys, or the equivalent for girls; why should I? I have a problem with you labelling Jewish ritual as magic, because it isn't, but that is another matter.

Why would I defend Christian culture and practice and at the same time deny other faiths theirs? There are some practices that I definitely would want stopped, such as female circumcision, but apart from such extremes, I have no problem with faiths practicing their faith.

Do you honestly think all Christians are as you describe us to be?
 
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[FONT=&quot] I am afraid you are mistaken in your assumptions. Not all Christians are the same; some of us are just as sensible and rational as anyone else.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I happen to be an Anglican. Anglicans for the most part do not believe in a literal hell of fire and brimstone, therefore non believers will not burn in hell for eternity; the very idea is nonsense, to be honest.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I am sorry, there are too many strands of Christianity to keep track of. But are you suggesting those who believe in hell aren’t being rational and that it is ‘nonsense’? How can you say that then this I your next post:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“ I have a problem with you labelling Jewish ritual as magic, because it isn't”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]How can you say something is ridiculous, but I cannot point out something else is equally as ridiculous? How can hell be nonsense but heaven not be?[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

Believers are taken to the Lord. Non believers will be subject to his love, mercy and compassion, and how he chooses to express that love is not up to me, but I rely on it just as much as anyone else.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I don’t think that’s what it says in the bible, but whatever helps you justify your beliefs is fine by me. You might annoy other Christians by saying it is ‘OK’ to not believe though, many have personally told me they will laugh when I burn in hell.

I agree with you that teaching very young children about a literal hellfire constitutes child abuse. But that is a long way from saying that any and all religious teaching and ritual is out of place, or that baptism should not happen to young babies.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
I have no problem with baptism, like I rudely describe further down it is just voodoo to me and nothing more. I can’t see how putting water on a baby does anything at all. It is the teaching of what it represents as fact, without giving alternatives that I have a problem with.
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I don’t think Dawkins would care much about you putting water on your baby’s head, after all it is nothing but water. So pull out a super-soaker and go crazy if it appeases your deity, I don’t think anyone cares unless they are the ‘Wicked Witch of the West’. What is curious is why you think it is ‘quite right’ yet you can’t see the benefit of a bah-mitzvah or a Sundance, voodoo or any magical ceremony. You have ‘blind faith’, your parents must be very proud.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Nice attitude.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]We all adults, sorry if I do offend but I don’t think I need to sugar coat my comments anymore, I certainly don’t receive it in return!

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I would have thought it must be apparent from my posts that my faith is alive and thinking, not blind. But perhaps not.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]What I mean is, you think baptism is ‘good voodoo’ and other ceremonies as meaningless, but I guarantee you cannot give a reasonable reason as to why, other than faith….which means you have blind faith.

However, once again, you have made some erroneous assumptions. I have no problem with bar mitzvah for Jewish boys, or the equivalent for girls; why should I? I have a problem with you labelling Jewish ritual as magic, because it isn't, but that is another matter.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Not a problem, I said ‘can’t see the benefit’

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Why would I defend Christian culture and practice and at the same time deny other faiths theirs? There are some practices that I definitely would want stopped, such as female circumcision, but apart from such extremes, I have no problem with faiths practicing their faith.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I am starting to lose my patience now, I can only repeat myself so many times before it becomes ridiculous, PLEASE READ SLOWLY… I AM NOT ARGUING NOT TO TEACH YOUR OR PRACTICE RELIGION, I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH CHILDREN BEING TAUGHT FAITH AS FACT, WHILST BEING DEPRIVED THE ALTERNATIVES.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Do you honestly think all Christians are as you describe us to be?[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Nope, I try not to generalise. Personally I don’t see any difference between Chrisitans and atheists for the most part. You can’t tell unless someone tells you what they believe (ie our actions are the same). Christianity is my favourite religion, I just think that there is a dark side that people try to rationalise away or don’t even see.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]But it is now friday afternoon, so enjoy your weekend everyone. I will come back and answer replies on Monday.
[/FONT]
 
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AlexBP

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I will answer when I have a bit more time later. But firstly, nearly all of you have completely misunderstood and missed the point. Please read the following from wiki:
Okay, I've read it. Now what? Obviously an intellectual like you isn't going to expect us to take seriously something from Wikipedia, a website whose name is synonymous with stupidity, incoherence, and intellectual dishonesty. Rather, an intellectual like you would surely prefer an academic citation like this one:

LAURENCE R. IANNACCONE, Introduction to the Economics of Religion. Journal of Economic Literature Vol. XXXVI (September 1998), pp. 1465–1496

On page 1471 of that article, you can read the explanation for why claims about religious indoctrination are untrue. So now we've established, from a real source, that religious instruction is not indoctrination, what have you got so say?

[FONT=&quot]I am starting to lose my patience now, I can only repeat myself so many times before it becomes ridiculous, [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
How do you suppose the rest of us feel when we repeat ourselves over and over again, and yet you ignore everything we say and keep telling the same lies over and over again?

PLEASE READ SLOWLY… I AM NOT ARGUING NOT TO TEACH YOUR OR PRACTICE RELIGION, I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH CHILDREN BEING TAUGHT FAITH AS FACT, WHILST BEING DEPRIVED THE ALTERNATIVES.
[/FONT]Please read this paragraph slowly and note the correct punctuation and capitalization. I don't care what you think about how I plan to raise my children. Neither does anyone else. Your opinions are irrelevant, unless you have children of your own.

[FONT=&quot]Nope, I try not to generalise.
You need to try harder. Much harder.
[/FONT]
 
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Catherineanne

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[FONT=&quot]I am starting to lose my patience now, I can only repeat myself so many times before it becomes ridiculous, PLEASE READ SLOWLY… I AM NOT ARGUING NOT TO TEACH YOUR OR PRACTICE RELIGION, I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH CHILDREN BEING TAUGHT FAITH AS FACT, WHILST BEING DEPRIVED THE ALTERNATIVES.[/FONT]

There is no need to shout.

Every single time I challenge what you have said, you claim that is not what you meant, blame other people for not being able to read your mind and reframe your comment. This is known as moving the goalposts.

When you work out what it is that you actually want to say, as opposed to what you really do say, then come back and maybe we can talk. In the meantime bear in mind that communication is a two way process. If you are talking to a thousand people and none of them get what you say, that is unlikely to be their fault. At that point getting irate on top of being incoherent won't help.

Meanwhile faith is a fact; the vast majority of humankind have a religious belief or faith or practice. None of us is obliged to present every variant of faith to our children; we can if we like, or we can just tell them of our own. They can learn about the rest some other time, in the same way as they learn about other countries and other languages. I suggest you learn to live with this, because it is not going to change.

To make it clearer; I regard atheism as a faith, because there is no verifiable evidence that it is true, and it has to be taken on trust the same as any other faith. When you are teaching your children that there is no God, will you also tell them that there are thousands upon thousands of faiths on earth, just as valid as your own, and all of which do believe in a deity of some kind? What about if I started to demand that you do so?

QED.

:wave:
 
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Okay, I've read it. Now what? Obviously an intellectual like you isn't going to expect us to take seriously something from Wikipedia, a website whose name is synonymous with stupidity, incoherence, and intellectual dishonesty. Rather, an intellectual like you would surely prefer an academic citation like this one:

LAURENCE R. IANNACCONE, Introduction to the Economics of Religion. Journal of Economic Literature Vol. XXXVI (September 1998), pp. 1465–1496

On page 1471 of that article, you can read the explanation for why claims about religious indoctrination are untrue. So now we've established, from a real source, that religious instruction is not indoctrination, what have you got so say?


Page 1471 is referring to extremism, stating that religious extremists are not brainwashed into doing what they do, I haven’t even mentioned extremism. I quoted Wiki for a definition of indoctrination as so far the replies have been regarding the sharing of your faith with your children. I am specifically referring to examples where your opinion is taught as fact and the child is encouraged to be uncritical, where alternatives are not given. Do I need to provide a definition from a more reliable source for you to take what I am saying seriously? Because what I am describing is the very definition of indoctrination, where as you seem to be defending your right to teach, which I would defend just as strongly. I am also of the opinion that teaching a child they will go to hell for not believing restricts their freedom of choice to not believe. When you fear hell as a child it is very difficult to completely leave it behind, without the lingering doubt of ‘what if’.

[FONT=&quot]
How do you suppose the rest of us feel when we repeat ourselves over and over again, and yet you ignore everything we say and keep telling the same lies over and over again?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]How can I have lied? This is my opinion, which I am happy to be criticised and discussed, just because you disagree it doesn’t mean I am a liar. You haven’t given any reason why you think it is OK to teach faith as fact, nor how this isn’t tantamount to indoctrination. You have just quoted one paper and given the sweeping statement that it concludes religious teaching isn’t indoctrinating, do you find this reasonable?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
Please read this paragraph slowly and note the correct punctuation and capitalization. I don't care what you think about how I plan to raise my children. Neither does anyone else. Your opinions are irrelevant, unless you have children of your own.
If you don’t care then please stop replying to my posts on this forum. I haven’t claimed my opinion matters, I am not so deluded as to think I am going to change anyone’s mind. I am merely asking questions, which is what this section of the forum is for, so if you don’t like me doing so then please ignore me, as we certainly aren’t adding any value. I have already said myself I don’t have children so that makes my opinion less valid, but it doesn’t mean I can’t have an opinion.
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Nope, I try not to generalise.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
You need to try harder. Much harder.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Ok, I will. If you can take criticism in response then I think you need to try and be more reasonable with your responses. You need to distinguish between what is opinion and what is fact and perhaps try and take me seriously before dismissing what I have to say. [/FONT]
 
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There is no need to shout.

Every single time I challenge what you have said, you claim that is not what you meant, blame other people for not being able to read your mind and reframe your comment. This is known as moving the goalposts.


I apologise I thought I was being consistent with my point, which is that I am only against the teaching of faith presented as factual information when it is blatantly based on faith/opinion, to impressionable young children. My point is also reliant on the child not being freely allowed to be critical and explore alternative ideas.

When you work out what it is that you actually want to say, as opposed to what you really do say, then come back and maybe we can talk. In the meantime bear in mind that communication is a two way process. If you are talking to a thousand people and none of them get what you say, that is unlikely to be their fault. At that point getting irate on top of being incoherent won't help.


Other people in this thread have understood and expressed their opinion in a more relevant way than myself, being both parents AND Christians. I honestly don’t think I could be any clearer.

Meanwhile faith is a fact; the vast majority of humankind have a religious belief or faith or practice. None of us is obliged to present every variant of faith to our children; we can if we like, or we can just tell them of our own. They can learn about the rest some other time, in the same way as they learn about other countries and other languages. I suggest you learn to live with this, because it is not going to change.

The definition of faith is:

“Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence”

So faith is based on what I think I originally described, interpretation (opinion) of personal experience and ‘faith’ in whoever wrote the bible. My point is that once a child has been taught this faith as being fact (which obviously it is not, hence our ‘free will’ to not believe) then they don’t really have a free choice to leave. Even if you don’t teach they will be tortured for eternity for not believing, there is always a pressure and guilt associated with leaving one’s parents faith.


To make it clearer; I regard atheism as a faith, because there is no verifiable evidence that it is true, and it has to be taken on trust the same as any other faith.


Can you clarify what you mean by ‘it is true’. Atheism is a made-up word to describe non-believers. It baffles me such a word need exist, as you are an atheist of the flying spaghetti monster just as much as I am. I do not believe in God because there is no reasonable reason to do so, instead I rely on facts and where there are no facts I say ‘I do not know’. For example evolution is fact, but when it comes to life after death I am honest in saying that I don’t have the foggiest idea of knowing, no-one alive does.

When you are teaching your children that there is no God, will you also tell them that there are thousands upon thousands of faiths on earth, just as valid as your own, and all of which do believe in a deity of some kind? What about if I started to demand that you do so?

To the first point, I will not teach ‘there is no God’ but I would be honest and tell them ‘I do not believe in God’ and offer reasons why if they ask. To the second, YES, a millions times yes! That is exactly what I am imploring everyone to do, so demand me to do so I beg of you. In reality I won’t explain every single religion in detail as it would take a lifetime, but certainly I would let them read the bible/Koran and I will allow them to ask questions and learn to expect an honest answer. I will say you cannot disprove God the same way you cannot really disprove anything, that we are all unique in the way we view the world around us and we have to come to our own conclusion. I will also explain how scientists conclude what is universal truth and how we rationalise what to believe and reject so they don’t grow up gullible and vulnerable. This is a right I hope all children will one day receive, as I strongly believe life choices need to be chosen not forced (even if you don’t see it as force) and religion or otherwise is something you need to ‘mould’ and rationalise over time as you mature.
 
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Catherineanne

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Can you clarify what you mean by ‘it is true’. Atheism is a made-up word to describe non-believers. It baffles me such a word need exist, as you are an atheist of the flying spaghetti monster just as much as I am.

All words are made up at some point, so that means nothing. However, it appears that you call yourself an atheist but you don't actually know what the term denotes. No wonder there is a problem.

An atheist is someone with the belief that there is no God. It is meaningless to say that I am an atheist of gods other than my own; that is simply not accurate at all. I know my own God because I have a relationship with him. I do not have a relationship with other gods, therefore I have nothing to say about them. My faith teaches that there is only one God, and I am happy with that. If other people have different faiths which teach them something else then good for them.

If a person is a theist they believe in God; any God will do, the only necessity is that they have one. If a person is an atheist they do not believe in God, or more accurately, they believe there is no God or gods to believe in.

A theist in one faith is not an atheist in another. That is just plain silly. A Christian theist is not an Islamic atheist. Both are theists.
 
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[FONT=&quot]This quote from this site (What Is the Definition of Atheism? Dictionaries, Atheists, Freethinkers, and Others on Defining Atheism) sums things up pretty well, I couldn't put it any better (I was just looking for a definition):[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"There is, unfortunately, some disagreement about the definition of atheism. It is interesting to note that most of that disagreement comes from theists — atheists themselves tend to agree on what atheism means. Christians in particular dispute the definition used by atheists and insist that atheism means something very different. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The broader, and more common, understanding of atheism among atheists is quite simply "not believing in any gods." No claims or denials are made — an atheist is just a person who does not happen to be a theist. Sometimes this broader understanding is called "weak" or "implicit" atheism. Most good, complete dictionaries readily support this."[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]So you see, just because you have a belief system based on faith doesn’t mean we all need to be labelled as such. This is very important to understand for you to understand other peoples point of view and likewise understand the argument I have put forward. Maybe you genuinely can’t empathise with a different perspective on life, which doesn’t make you a bad person, but it does validate my point on indoctrination, blind faith and the dangers of not being taught how to rationalise and think for oneself.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
All words are made up at some point, so that means nothing. However, it appears that you call yourself an atheist but you don't actually know what the term denotes. No wonder there is a problem.

I understand words are invented, that isn’t what I meant. I mean that it is a meaningless word, for example do you believe we are living on the back of a seagull? Of course not, that makes you an ‘anti-seagullian’…do you see how ridiculous it is to label someone for not believing something?

An atheist is someone with the belief that there is no God. It is meaningless to say that I am an atheist of gods other than my own; that is simply not accurate at all.

Why not? You are contradicting your own definition of atheist. You say an atheist is someone who ‘believes there is no God’ whilst you ‘believe there are no Gods…except one’. So why not try using the same rationality/logic or whatever thought process you hold other religions to, on your own beliefs? You reject the other Gods due to lack of evidence/proof, I merely hold all religions to the same standard and reject all Gods, can you see the similarities?
I know my own God because I have a relationship with him. I do not have a relationship with other gods, therefore I have nothing to say about them. My faith teaches that there is only one God, and I am happy with that. If other people have different faiths which teach them something else then good for them.
You have faith that there is one God, based on faith which we have established means there is no proof. So you have actively decided science must be wrong and that the bible is true, crack on. But why should your children have to follow suit? Why not let them learn what science has to say on things like creation vs evolution and let them decide for themselves? Why admit your beliefs are faith, then teach them as fact?

If a person is a theist they believe in God; any God will do, the only necessity is that they have one. If a person is an atheist they do not believe in God, or more accurately, they believe there is no God or gods to believe in.

A theist in one faith is not an atheist in another. That is just plain silly. A Christian theist is not an Islamic atheist. Both are theists.

[FONT=&quot]Why is it silly though? You have chosen to reject all of the 1000’s of Gods in human history. You have rejected ancient Egyptian Gods, ancient Greek, ‘The great spirit’ of native Indians, the flying spaghetti monster, Allah, The thousand or so Hindu Gods. You could fill a book with the various Gods you have chosen to not believe in, so you are 99.9% as much of an atheist as I am (in a way), you have just decided that one God is true. So you are technically a Christian as you have chosen to believe in their particular God, but if you rejected him as well would you have chosen to ‘believe he doesn’t exist’ or would you have added one more God to the list you have rejected? So you see, the very reason you think it is silly to be an atheist of islam, is the very same argument I am suggesting the term ‘atheist’ is silly.[/FONT]
 
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ViaCrucis

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Because atheism is the non-belief in any sort of theos. Theism is the belief in some kind of theos.

If one wanted to I suppose they could use "atheist" in a more specific case, though I don't think that's how it's usually done. For example, one of the charges Rome threw at early Christians (and Jews) was that of atheism due to the fact that both Jews and Christians did not believe nor revere the State gods, and that the God they claimed to worship was unseen, ineffable and unable to be depicted in an image or idol.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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razeontherock

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So what would the best way of finding your faith in God? Surely it is a personal decision based on how you view the world around you, deducing that the world isn’t an accident and the best answer to all of life’s questions is the existence of God. Perhaps you then start looking for God and find him everywhere, your personal experiences of prayer or otherwise make you more and more sure of his existence. At some point along the journey you learn to love God and wish to serve his message and are 100% convinced.

So firstly is the above more or less OK?

Yup :)

But when we bring children in to the equation I have a very deep moral objection to them being indoctrinated in to their parent’s faith.

My moral objection is that a child is unable to decide for themselves on any such example.

Likewise we know evolution is true yet it isn’t universally taught in America due to the same superstitions.

The way we are taught to think as a child is extremely important. This is key, as really all a child needs is to be taught how to think and not what.

Also to get to my first point, isn’t it better to find your own faith

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned in your thread yet, but G-d specifically chose Abraham because He knew he would teach his children G-d's ways. This says almost everything that needs to be said here!

I find it curious that you relate this to the idea that Ev isn't taught in the US. I know of no such place where it's not.

The way a child is taught to think, will be different if it revolves around G-d's existence, or not. This is a believing parent's prime responsibility.

An individual has
no choice but to find their own Faith! Otherwise, all they'll have is dead religion.
 
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chilehed

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...However can we all agree that religion of any type fundamentally relies on faith?
It's not possible to live as a human being without faith.

...Isn’t the whole part of God being absent part of his wish for us to have faith in the end? So surely we can agree you cannot prove (or disprove which is an easier subject) the existence of God?...
No, we can't agree on that. You seem to think that faith is believing in something for which one has no evidence, or worse that it's believing in something in the face of proof to the contrary. That's not faith, that's credulity.

Faith is "an act of the will in which one aheres to another who is known".

As for your further objection, do you actually think that parents shouldn't tell their kids how to behave? "Johnny, don't steal from the other kids, it's wrong." "Janie, don't whack your brother on the head, it's wrong." No one should indoctrinate their children in the precepts of the natural law on the absurd grounds that they should be left to figure it out on their own?

Hey, for that matter don't teach them not to drink poison either. They should be left to figure it out on their own.
 
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lesliedellow

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This subject really hits a nerve with me and I lost my temper when we touched on it in a different thread. It damn near stopped me from ever posting here again. I am sorry for the way I said it, but I can't take back the point I was making. So with a little help I shall try and keep this civil!

Atheists are keen on that word "indoctrinate" aren't they? If teenagers don't want to share their parents belief, they are entirely capable of rebelling against them, in case you hadn't noticed.

Teaching them about the Christian faith only ensures that they know what they are rejecting, if they do reject it, and it saves them from coming up with the kind of crude caricatures we so often hear from atheists.
 
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elman

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=Curious Atheist;58779086]
Can you clarify what you mean by ‘it is true’. Atheism is a made-up word to describe non-believers. It baffles me such a word need exist, as you are an atheist of the flying spaghetti monster just as much as I am. I do not believe in God because there is no reasonable reason to do so, instead I rely on facts and where there are no facts I say ‘I do not know’. For example evolution is fact, but when it comes to life after death I am honest in saying that I don’t have the foggiest idea of knowing, no-one alive does.
That seems more like Agnostic to me than Atheist.
When you are teaching your children that there is no God, will you also tell them that there are thousands upon thousands of faiths on earth, just as valid as your own, and all of which do believe in a deity of some kind? What about if I started to demand that you do so?
No because any faith that teaches other than love others is not just as valid as mine.
To the first point, I will not teach ‘there is no God’ but I would be honest and tell them ‘I do not believe in God’ and offer reasons why if they ask.
I also when they are mature enough would discuss with them the reasons I believe. Actually most Christians raise their childre discussing faith which is saying I don't know for sure but I believe there is a Creator.

To the second, YES, a millions times yes! That is exactly what I am imploring everyone to do, so demand me to do so I beg of you. In reality I won’t explain every single religion in detail as it would take a lifetime, but certainly I would let them read the bible/Koran and I will allow them to ask questions and learn to expect an honest answer. I will say you cannot disprove God the same way you cannot really disprove anything, that we are all unique in the way we view the world around us and we have to come to our own conclusion. I will also explain how scientists conclude what is universal truth
You might want to point how how often scientist have been wrong and have had to change what is universal truth.
 
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lesliedellow

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I will also explain how scientists conclude what is universal truth and how we rationalise what to believe and reject so they don’t grow up gullible and vulnerable.

That is not what scientists do. They come up with models of reality, often with the knowledge that those models cannot be true in any absolute sense.

For example, General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics are incompatible, so at least one of them (and probably both) is wrong. But Quantum Mechanics concerns itself with the very small, and those who work with atoms and molecules can use Quantum Mechanics, whilst ignoring General Relativity - which is only relevant in the case of the very big. Conversely, astronomers can work with General Relativity, whilst ignoring Quantum Mechanics.

In between those two extremes, Newtonian Mechanics rule the roost.
 
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Yup
clip_image001.gif


Yay!

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned in your thread yet, but G-d specifically chose Abraham because He knew he would teach his children G-d's ways. This says almost everything that needs to be said here!


But clearly you have to accept the Bible before you can end the debate here.

I find it curious that you relate this to the idea that Ev isn't taught in the US. I know of no such place where it's not.


I don’t know if it is particular widespread, most of the news stories I hear are usually about Texas. Many have only changed in the last few years and every now and again I hear a story of a teacher refusing to teach evolution. Also many books contain labels like this:

"This textbook contains material on evolution. Evolution is a theory, not a fact, regarding the origin of living things. This material should be approached with an open mind, studied carefully, and critically considered."

The way a child is taught to think, will be different if it revolves around G-d's existence, or not. This is a believing parent's prime responsibility.

An individual has
no choice but to find their own Faith! Otherwise, all they'll have is dead religion


My argument stems from the fact that children aren’t choosing to believe, but being told it is true and aren’t being given any alternative. Or even being discouraged from being critical of what they are told which is the definition of indoctrination. I hate to use the same cliché but Santa and the tooth fairy really are the best examples I can think of right now, children just accept it without question. Once you have been indoctrinated to believe something leaving that belief behind is exceedingly difficult. Many religions preach to not marry outside of the faith and to teach children, I don’t know how popular religion would be without children being converted but I would wager it is a large percentage of the converts. I have said this to you many times but I admit I have never really understood your replies, but do you think it is just coincidence America is 90% Christian and Iran 100% Muslim?
 
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