What’s the worst that can happen?

[docpotter]

How did you come to the understanding Ken that as a Christian ( believing in Jesus ), that you needed to " earn " your salvation via your good deeds ? Because really Paul explains how no one can earn their salvation and everyone falls short on their own actions .

No offense meant at all, but it seems to me your views of the basis of salvation were a bit off.

We all will sin and fall short , not one Christian will say they are perfect and without sin Ken . I sure won't.

What in the bible did you have an issue with ?

 

[GA777]

That's easy for you to say; and I'm sure you even believe it! But I know from personal experience that what you say is not true.

Ken

Can you please clarify the experience you had and if I ask you a couple questions? because I am not God and cant figure out what the problem may be without questions. Because there are countless others who claim to have had a personal experience after seeking while they are 20s+ years old after leaving the faith for a long time.

 

[Ken-1122]

Razontherock

Originally Posted by Ken-1122
when it happened everybody in the temple began to roll on the ground and babble and shake and I thought “this looks just like what happens in my church, but we call it “speaking in tongues”

(razontherock) Did you know this is a specific heresy, (called Marcionism, IIRC) condemned by the early Church? Apparently they thought it best left to voodoo

(reply) I am quite aware that many denominations frown upon the “sanctified churches” but then again; many of the sanctified churches frown upon other denominations as well. Who’s right? Well at that time I went with what I was taught.


Originally Posted by Ken-1122
it took me nearly 10 years for me to go from putting it into God’s hands to calling myself a non-believer.

(razontherock)You've seen me speak on "dominion" more than once. What you did was neglect your God-given dominion, asking Him to do what He placed under your responsibility. The fact that it took 10 years to fail is evidence of His Mercy. The fact that you even think about any of this at all, is evidence He has not yet given up on you. Don't take that for granted!

(reply)The reason I put it in God’s hands is because I spent 6-7 years trying to do it myself with no results. Unless you are a machine, if you try something enough times with any results, eventually you are going to give up. Putting it in God’s hands was my way of giving up.


Originally Posted by Ken-1122
when I was Christian, because I knew I wasn’t saved,

(razontrherock)Holy contradictions Batman!! When you weren't saved you weren't Christian. I'm merely guessing here, but it seems this is unexplored territory? This much would certainly make sense of everything else you've said.

I defined a Christian as anybody who believes Jesus is the Christ. Behavior and actions had nothing to do with it. Example; serial killer John Wayne Gasey may have believed Jesus was the Christ thus a Christian but evident of his actions, I would not have considered him saved. I realize there are various definitions of what it means to be Christian or saved, I was going by my definition


Originally Posted by Ken-1122
I guess you can say, when I was Christian, I was unable to love myself because of what I was taught thus I needed God to love me (which prompted my attempts to get saved)

(Razontherock)This is not quite, but almost the exact opposite of the Gospel!
1) God Loves you
2) If there is any "saving" to be done, it is God's doing, and His desire; not your's or mine. Adam and Eve did not go looking for God in the garden story, but it was God who came looking for them ...


(reply) Aren’t you contradicting what you said earlier about “dominion”? asking God to do what was my responsibility?

(razontherock)3) God's Love desires the highest good for us. This makes "loving ourselves" a moot point that has no bearing. Pursuing our own good is replaced with Loving God Himself, which is how what's good for us gets accomplished. (Within Christianity

(reply) don’t get me wrong, when I was Christian, I didn’t hate myself; if you asked me at that time did I love myself I would have said “of course” but now in hindsight looking at the big picture, when I saw myself as “filthy rags’ in the eyes of God (as they say) I couldn’t love myself to the extent I do now that I feel there is nothing wrong with me. Don’t get me wrong, I ain’t perfect by a long shot! I make plenty of mistakes; but they are MY mistakes. I don’t have to blame them on the Devil, and when things go right, I don’t have to give the praise to God; I am able to recognize that I am capable of good all on my own. I like my life better this way.


Originally Posted by Ken-1122
I think it has more to do with what I was taught about Christianity, and what I read from the Bible.

(razontherock)This is a "yes" answer to what Antz asked, which is if your conclusions are based in the particular religion you had become accustomed to. We have seen very drastic differences between your former religion, and Biblical Christianity - just in this one post! I don't mean to offend you, but since I see it I must point it out to you.


(reply) one thing about religions; Christianity included it is that there are so many different interpretations of it. I think this is just an example of what I was taught being a different interpretation than what you were taught and what you know of it.[/font]

Ken

P.S. My responses are highlighted.

 

[Ken-1122]

How did you come to the understanding Ken that as a Christian ( believing in Jesus ), that you needed to " earn " your salvation via your good deeds ? Because really Paul explains how no one can earn their salvation and everyone falls short on their own actions .

No offense meant at all, but it seems to me your views of the basis of salvation were a bit off.

We all will sin and fall short , not one Christian will say they are perfect and without sin Ken . I sure won't.

What in the bible did you have an issue with ?

I didn't have such an understanding. I think you misunderstood what I said.

Ken

 

[Ken-1122]

Can you please clarify the experience you had and if I ask you a couple questions? because I am not God and cant figure out what the problem may be without questions. Because there are countless others who claim to have had a personal experience after seeking while they are 20s+ years old after leaving the faith for a long time.

It’s just that by the time I was 24 yrs old, I had spent nearly 1/3rd of my entire life actively searching for God to the best of my ability. So when you said “proof would be provided if you searched with all your heart” I had to object because I had already done that; and it didn’t work.
As far as religious experiences, I never had any. I did a lot of studying the bible, and praying, but I never felt anything; I never experienced anything.

Ken

 

[oi_antz]

I defined a Christian as anybody who believes Jesus is the Christ. Behavior and actions had nothing to do with it. Example; serial killer John Wayne Gasey may have believed Jesus was the Christ thus a Christian but evident of his actions, I would not have considered him saved. I realize there are various definitions of what it means to be Christian or saved, I was going by my definition

one thing about religions; Christianity included it is that there are so many different interpretations of it. I think this is just an example of what I was taught being a different interpretation than what you were taught and what you know of it.

One think I'm learning is the responsibility of us to exercise common sense when discussing the bible. If two people are getting different meanings then there's only three ways to go with it:

one is wrong while the other is right
"A" can learn from "B"
"B" can learn from "A"

At some point you decided to stop learning from your teachers, this happened because you saw a teacher of an opposing faith teaching similar concepts but using unfamiliar words. Do you not see a problem with the logic in your decision?

 

[razeontherock]

one thing about religions; Christianity included it is that there are so many different interpretations of it. I think this is just an example of what I was taught being a different interpretation

As Antz just alluded, the difference here is what you did, didn't work. We're all just pointing out there are knowable reasons why ...

 

[GA777]

It’s just that by the time I was 24 yrs old, I had spent nearly 1/3rd of my entire life actively searching for God to the best of my ability. So when you said “proof would be provided if you searched with all your heart” I had to object because I had already done that; and it didn’t work.
As far as religious experiences, I never had any. I did a lot of studying the bible, and praying, but I never felt anything; I never experienced anything.

Ken

Then you didnt seek the way it should be (from your heart). When you dont do anything special, you get nothing special. The numbers of atheistic and other religions conversions are too many to be able to count, after getting moved by the spirit or getting any proof. If you did what I tell you via PM, I am pretty sure that would happen, except if you dont want to know that God exists, because like so many atheists, you accuse the character of God and keep insisting on how unfair he is etc. Furthermore, if you really read the bible, you would have so easily realized the great countless fulfilled prophecies. And God wouldn't prove you that he exists if you wouldnt improve after that, it would be pointless to do that. And if you really searched too, you could have easily found convincing proof on the internet for example, but you never did, so I'd doubt you'd have correctly done that in prayer.

 

[razeontherock]

So when you said “proof would be provided if you searched with all your heart” I had to object because I had already done that; and it didn’t work.

Why do you assume you did "search with all your heart?" Why do you assume to know what this phrase even means? Is it not more logical to conclude that since it did not work for you but did for others, that somehow you violated the prescribed way?

I had the same experience as you, that "it didn't work." God even gave me a song about that, and if you like I can send you the lyrics. No, that song didn't "prove" anything to me, it just drew me one step further along the path of thinking these things through. One day I had the revelation that I did not HAVE a whole heart with which to seek God, and I was shown (by God) how to pray about that. Once that problem was fixed my seeking became much more effective!

Now I'm not saying this describes your situation, but I am presenting a type of logic you have not employed. And this difference is EXACTLY the sort of thing that will keep God at a distance from you. What's the worst that can happen? That you (or I) die in our sins.

 

[Ken-1122]

One think I'm learning is the responsibility of us to exercise common sense when discussing the bible. If two people are getting different meanings then there's only three ways to go with it:

one is wrong while the other is right
"A" can learn from "B"
"B" can learn from "A"

At some point you decided to stop learning from your teachers, this happened because you saw a teacher of an opposing faith teaching similar concepts but using unfamiliar words. Do you not see a problem with the logic in your decision?

Whaaaat??!!! I have no idea how you came to such a conclusion! I never said I was learning from a teacher! My attempts to get saved were by praying and studying the bible.
Unless you are counting God and the bible as my teachers, then the reason I stopped learning from the bible is because I saw flaws in it, and I never learned anything from god because I never heard from him. And this teacher of an opposing faith? I have no idea what you are talking about; perhaps you can clarify.

K

 

[Ken-1122]

As Antz just alluded, the difference here is what you did, didn't work. We're all just pointing out there are knowable reasons why ...

Perhaps you could explain what Antz is alluding to, because I havn't got a clue. Also, what about all the other stuff I mentioned? Have an opinion on that?

K

 

[Ken-1122]

Ga777
(quote)Then you didnt seek the way it should be (from your heart). When you dont do anything special, you get nothing special.

(reply) You are wrong. I did seek from the heart

(quote) The numbers of atheistic and other religions conversions are too many to be able to count

(reply) That works both ways ya know; there are plenty of Christians converting to other religions, or to atheism; and those numbers are also too many to count

(quote) after getting moved by the spirit or getting any proof. If you did what I tell you via PM, I am pretty sure that would happen,

(reply) Exactly what did you tell me to do via PM?

(quote) except if you dont want to know that God exists, because like so many atheists, you accuse the character of God and keep insisting on how unfair he is etc.

(reply) If you have proof that your God exist, I would be more than happy to see this proof. And I didn’t accuse your god of anything; I simply asked what’s the worst that can happen if he addressed the world; never said he was obligated to do it

(quote)Furthermore, if you really read the bible, you would have so easily realized the great countless fulfilled prophecies. And God wouldn't prove you that he exists if you wouldnt improve after that, it would be pointless to do that.

(reply) I read the bible and I also saw a lot of flaws and contradictions as well.

(quote)And if you really searched too, you could have easily found convincing proof on the internet for example, but you never did, so I'd doubt you'd have correctly done that in prayer.

(reply) My search for God ended a long time ago, before we had the internet.

You haven't got a clue of what you are talking about; during that time of my life I did everything in my power to find God and I couldn’t. I realize you don’t want to believe it, and that’s okay but it doesn’t make it any less true.

Why must it be so hard? Why can’t a person with a sincere heart ask God to save them, even if they don’t have all the knowledge necessary to dot all the I’s and cross all the t’s (as they say) necessary to find God? If a person sincerely wants’ to know your God, why would God purposely remain hidden from him simply because he hasn’t learned the correct way to find him?

Ken

 

[Ken-1122]

Razontherock
(quote) “Why do you assume you did "search with all your heart?"”

(reply) I never “assumed”, I knew I searched with all my heart.

(quote) “Why do you assume to know what this phrase even means?”

(reply) The same reason you “assume” to know what it means.

(quote) “Is it not more logical to conclude that since it did not work for you but did for others, that somehow you violated the prescribed way?”

(reply) Why must it be so difficult? If a person sincerely desires to get saved and asks God with a sincere heart; even if he is not an “expert” on Christianity; why would God remain hidden from him simply because he mistakenly didn’t do it the “prescribed way”?

(quote) “I had the same experience as you, that "it didn't work

(reply) Yeah I’ve heard that one before; why do you guys always claim to have been in my shoes? You guys read from the same conversion book or something?

(quote)" God even gave me a song about that, and if you like I can send you the lyrics”

(reply) Assuming what you say is true; so God gave you a song? Well God never gave me a song; he never contacted me, so your experience was not like mine.

(quote)” No, that song didn't "prove" anything to me, it just drew me one step further along the path of thinking these things through”

(reply) If God gave me a song, that would have proven plenty for me; maybe I was a little more eager than you; ya think?

(quote) “One day I had the revelation that I did not HAVE a whole heart with which to seek God,”

(reply) Oh so God gave you a revelation as well? And you claim your experience was just like mine huh?

(quote) “and I was shown (by God) how to pray about that. Once that problem was fixed my seeking became much more effective!"

(reply) Okay let me see if I’ve got this straight; I prayed for 7 years with a sincere heart to get saved, nothing happened, and eventually I gave up .
You prayed, God gives you a song, a revelation showing you that you weren’t seeking him correctly, and God personally came down to show you how to pray. And after all of this you finally got it right! And somehow you conclude that your experience is just like mine!

If that’s your honest opinion my friend, all I can say is “ I disagree. I would even go as far as to say that your experience was 180 degrees in the opposite direction as mine.

Peace
Ken

 

[oi_antz]

Whaaaat??!!! I have no idea how you came to such a conclusion! I never said I was learning from a teacher! My attempts to get saved were by praying and studying the bible.
Unless you are counting God and the bible as my teachers, then the reason I stopped learning from the bible is because I saw flaws in it, and I never learned anything from god because I never heard from him. And this teacher of an opposing faith? I have no idea what you are talking about; perhaps you can clarify.

K

Ok, it is a misunderstanding of the way I used the term "teacher". In my opinion, anyone who is presenting information is teaching and anyone who is interpreting that information is learning. Whether learning what is intended to be imparted is arguable. So yes, the bible is a teacher, the Holy Spirit is a teacher (when you think, He is the angel telling you the truth), evil spirits are teachers (when you think, they are the devil telling you lies), and there are people who can speak to you (some things they say might be true, somethings they say might be false). So you are telling me that you stopped learning from your pastor and began depending on God to teach you when you read the bible. How confident are you that your teacher was the Holy Spirit and not a devil? I have to say that the Holy Spirit is certainly qualified to teach faith, I would be quite shocked to hear that He failed to lead one of His students into the light! What do you make of that?

 

[razeontherock]

Yeah I’ve heard that one before; why do you guys always claim to have been in my shoes? You guys read from the same conversion book or something?

Okay let me see if I’ve got this straight; I prayed for 7 years with a sincere heart to get saved, nothing happened, and eventually I gave up

You prayed, God gives you a song, a revelation showing you that you weren’t seeking him correctly, and God personally came down to show you how to pray. And after all of this you finally got it right! And somehow you conclude that your experience is just like mine!

No, I never said my experience was just like yours. I said I did everything I could, and it didn't work. After that, something changed. And I really don't think I would have persisted through 7 years of failure. So what's the difference? It really seems the old saw of "didn't try hard enough" really, ain't it.

One tactic might be to see what the difference was, but you don't seem to be interested. And yet the worst that can happen remains, to die in our sins. And from that fate I am still not exempt. And no matter what glorious type thing god might do, wouldn't really change that. I realize that's difficult to accept, but it's true nonetheless.

 

[Ken-1122]

Ok, it is a misunderstanding of the way I used the term "teacher". In my opinion, anyone who is presenting information is teaching and anyone who is interpreting that information is learning. Whether learning what is intended to be imparted is arguable. So yes, the bible is a teacher, the Holy Spirit is a teacher (when you think, He is the angel telling you the truth), evil spirits are teachers (when you think, they are the devil telling you lies), and there are people who can speak to you (some things they say might be true, somethings they say might be false). So you are telling me that you stopped learning from your pastor and began depending on God to teach you when you read the bible. How confident are you that your teacher was the Holy Spirit and not a devil? I have to say that the Holy Spirit is certainly qualified to teach faith, I would be quite shocked to hear that He failed to lead one of His students into the light! What do you make of that?

Okay that clears things up; I think I understand what you are saying.
Actually at that time I never quit learning from my paster; I continued to go to church and what was taught in the church did influence my beliefs. I ATTEMPTED to learn from God as well but because I recieved no communication from him I don't think God could be classified as a teacher. I never quit learning from my paster until years later when I quit going to church.

Ken

 

[oi_antz]

because I recieved no communication from him I don't think God could be classified as a teacher.

Actually God is a teacher, He does communicate and teach us, this is why it is said the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. How do you think God communicates with humans? It's obviously not a booming voice in the sky. Do you understand it or is that something you need help with?

 

[Ken-1122]

Actually God is a teacher, He does communicate and teach us, this is why it is said the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. How do you think God communicates with humans? It's obviously not a booming voice in the sky. Do you understand it or is that something you need help with?

It's something I don't believe anymore.

K

 

[oi_antz]

It's something I don't believe anymore.

K

Who taught you to believe that?

 

[GA777]

You are wrong. I did seek from the heart

That's the problem. Some think they seeked God from the heart, while they never did. And honestly, from your attitude, and how you talk here sometimes, it doenst seems for different reasons.

That works both ways ya know; there are plenty of Christians converting to other religions, or to atheism; and those numbers are also too many to count

Very true, they are more numerous now than the conversions to christianity. BUT, the christian converts get something supernatural, but those converting to other religions ~never do, and converts to atheism are because of a lack of faith from the 1st place.

Exactly what did you tell me to do via PM?

I no longer have the message, but it was some steps to do, and you said you wont do it of course.

If you have proof that your God exist, I would be more than happy to see this proof. And I didn’t accuse your god of anything; I simply asked what’s the worst that can happen if he addressed the world; never said he was obligated to do it

Proof is everywhere. Proof is in the creation, in the NDEs, prophecies, miracles, people with supernatural knowledge, eyewitnesses, people who got saved from death after hearing God, demonic possessions, apparitions, demons witnessing, angels witnessing etc. But most you guys will not believe, even if a dead person comes out of the grave, and if even atheists may believe after this (and wont consider checking a doctor), it wont change their lives

I read the bible and I also saw a lot of flaws and contradictions as well.

You mean you read the bible and misinterpret lots of things written in it. We've already talked about that before. And there are some mistakes in translation, yes, tho. they are very rare, but that is completely useless. Prophecies is something supernatural which cant be done by men, and a book had his prophecies coming true. Prophecy is a supernatural event, therefore it shows that the bible was inspired by God.

My search for God ended a long time ago, before we had the internet.

You haven't got a clue of what you are talking about; during that time of my life I did everything in my power to find God and I couldn’t. I realize you don’t want to believe it, and that’s okay but it doesn’t make it any less true.

Why must it be so hard? Why can’t a person with a sincere heart ask God to save them, even if they don’t have all the knowledge necessary to dot all the I’s and cross all the t’s (as they say) necessary to find God? If a person sincerely wants’ to know your God, why would God purposely remain hidden from him simply because he hasn’t learned the correct way to find him?

why did others find him after searching? Because your search was wrong. If you search for something in the wrong place and the wrong time for example, you would never find it.

You have enough proof everywhere (on the internet-eyewitnesses-in real life - bible etc.), and it is supposed to be enough , and you are supposed to have faith. But if you really search from all your heart, God would change his decision, and would show you direct/indirect proof, depending on how you worked in your search. Many people for exemple search for God because they are afraid of going to hell if he really exists, or want to go to heaven if it really exists... instead of searching him out of love, and that of course may not work. The right way isnt hard to do, not hard at all. But people would have for once to drop their selfisness behind their back, and send out as much love as possible while searching for God, and the result would be much different.