Wives submitting to Husbands-- how?

[dorig59]

I don't believe that either command is conditional. I think that maybe our modern ideas of what submission means is off perhaps. It's a word that immediately has a negative connotation in our minds.

But anyway, a teaching I had heard once that I have not checked out myself personally versus the post above where I do know it's true, is that the reason why women were being told to submit in the NT Scriptures was because in the early church, Jesus had freed them so spectacularly from what marriage had been like before He came, that they were getting a little.....rowdy maybe? I can't think of the word I'm trying to say, but they were running around, happy with their newfound freedom, and Paul was just trying to get them to simmer down a bit and tend to the home fires, so to speak.

 

[dallasapple]

I don't believe that either command is conditional. I think that maybe our modern ideas of what submission means is off perhaps. It's a word that immediately has a negative connotation in our minds.

But anyway, a teaching I had heard once that I have not checked out myself personally versus the post above where I do know it's true, is that the reason why women were being told to submit in the NT Scriptures was because in the early church, Jesus had freed them so spectacularly from what marriage had been like before He came, that they were getting a little.....rowdy maybe? I can't think of the word I'm trying to say, but they were running around, happy with their newfound freedom, and Paul was just trying to get them to simmer down a bit and tend to the home fires, so to speak.

I definately belive the verse about the women being quiet was EXACTLY about that..the women couldnt hear and would yell out to their husbands what does that mean! LOL!!

So they LITTERALLY needed to be quiet becasue they were causing a disruption..

So sure if you want to take it litterally..DONT yell out questions to your husband in church..and you will be just fine..

And I dont think the submit verse even means "submit" ..not after Psalms has shown the translation...even though during those times ..it would have been to a womans benefit ..to be more of a "yes dear than a over my dead body kind of woman becasue that litterally might be her fait.. her dead body..The men had to be advised to "love' their wives for a reason..and becasue of that reason the woman was at his mercy so to speak..men did NOT love their wives..that was a new idea..men collected wives..men had wives for a purpose..and it wasn't "love"..women were traded around and purchased like livestock..Perfect example ..Solomon "inherited his dads wives..

Dallas

 

[dallasapple]

If it were conditional it would have been worded that way. Here's a question though. Is the command to husbands to love as Christ loved the church conditional upon her submitting?

I dont believe the word is submit to begin with so Im the wrong person to ask..the word is "subject"but in that case the queston is moot..because the wife IS "subject" to her husband wether she likes it or not..so their cant even be a condtion for the husband to "not love her" as Christ loves the church based on any action(or non action) by her..Her being "subject " to him is a state of being she has no cntrol of .It takes no action by her..

Dallas

 

[JaneFW]

If it were conditional it would have been worded that way. Here's a question though. Is the command to husbands to love as Christ loved the church conditional upon her submitting?

All Christians are commanded to love each other. There are no qualifications given. Love your neighbor - love your enemy - the greatest of these is love.

General comment: it's a shame that people can't get past putting limits and qualifications on love. Jesus didn't.

 

[dallasapple]

All Christians are commanded to love each other. There are no qualifications given. Love your neighbor - love your enemy - the greatest of these is love.

General comment: it's a shame that people can't get past putting limits and qualifications on love. Jesus didn't.

I agree..so many want to get bogged down in women submitting ..even women are "worried" that its not "emphasized" enough...

When the bottom line is..if people could just get the basics down that apply to eveyone..we wouldnt even need to ever look at any scriptures regarding marriage in the first place other than for reinforcement..

Atlass said this I thought it was a BINGO! She said she and her husband just focus on "do unto others as you would have them do unto you " and thats enough to keep them busy ...enough of a challenge and the closer you can get to that..more times than not..more days than not..the rest isnt even a concern...

I think thats where we are as a society today..needing to just try and get back to the basics..the whole "how to do marriage" is actually quite null and void..if you are practicing the basics that you would apply to anyone..not just your spouse..and I would venture to say most havent mastered those..

Dallas

 

[chaz345]

All Christians are commanded to love each other. There are no qualifications given. Love your neighbor - love your enemy - the greatest of these is love.

General comment: it's a shame that people can't get past putting limits and qualifications on love. Jesus didn't.

But the love and submission commanded of all Christians toward each other is different that that commanded between husband's and wives. If it weren't then the specific commands to husbands and wives wouldn't exist, would they?

If we're going to go down the road that it's all the same, then you'd have to say that you were to submit to, or were subject to all men, something I'm quite sure you'd disagree with. Same with love. Husbands are absolutely not called to lay down their lives for any and all other Christians.

And the only reason that love is the greatest of the three things talked about in that passage is that it's the only one that is eternal. There is no faith or hope in heaven because there's no need for either. Not when you can see Jesus and God with your own eyes and not when there's nothing better to hope for.

 

[JaneFW]

But the love and submission commanded of all Christians toward each other is different that that commanded between husband's and wives. If it weren't then the specific commands to husbands and wives wouldn't exist, would they?

If we're going to go down the road that it's all the same, then you'd have to say that you were to submit to, or were subject to all men, something I'm quite sure you'd disagree with. Same with love. Husbands are absolutely not called to lay down their lives for any and all other Christians.

And the only reason that love is the greatest of the three things talked about in that passage is that it's the only one that is eternal. There is no faith or hope in heaven because there's no need for either. Not when you can see Jesus and God with your own eyes and not when there's nothing better to hope for.

I don't see the difference. We are also commanded to submit to each other.

You see, everyone interprets they way they want to: oh no, submit to each other doesn't really mean that. It means something else. But wives submit to husbands means exactly that. Whatever. LOL.

Done here too.

 

[dorig59]

But the love and submission commanded of all Christians toward each other is different that that commanded between husband's and wives. If it weren't then the specific commands to husbands and wives wouldn't exist, would they?

If we're going to go down the road that it's all the same, then you'd have to say that you were to submit to, or were subject to all men, something I'm quite sure you'd disagree with. Same with love. Husbands are absolutely not called to lay down their lives for any and all other Christians.

And the only reason that love is the greatest of the three things talked about in that passage is that it's the only one that is eternal. There is no faith or hope in heaven because there's no need for either. Not when you can see Jesus and God with your own eyes and not when there's nothing better to hope for.

Honestly, I think you've got some good points here, Chaz. It boils down to everybody living it how they see fit.

 

[dallasapple]

Well just like husbands dont "litterally" lay down their lives for their wife..heck..many of them these days have trouble "laying down " their "habits" for their wives..women arent suppossed to litterally submit to her husband in "everything..+ like I said I think the verse is misinterested anyway..Thats why it doesnt even make sense in the first place..

Husbands arent "dying" for their wives..and wives arent "submitting" in everything..

Dallas

 

[WeCryOut]

I got really blessed in the area of submission, but then my husband is very gentle and kind. He makes it a lot easier to do than a lot of people would have. For better or worse, he always makes decisions based on "what would be best for my wife?" Sometimes I think he would be better off making decisions in his own interest, but that simply isn't his way. He's just a selfless person.

I guess when I think of submission, I think of giving him the benefit of a doubt in decision making. He always gets my opinion before making major decisions. We discuss them as a team, but I ultimately allow the decision to be up to him. We very rarely cannot come to some sort of compromise where we are both happy. On those occasions that we still disagree I just have to say to myself "you know what? He's just as smart and capable as I am, and he makes choices that are for my benefit. So whatever he decides is okay with me."

I see how much this benefits our marriage. My husband is really hard on himself, and when i'm willing to stand by his decision making it is a huge boost to his self-esteem. I've seen him become more confident because he sees that I have confidence in him.

As someone who is naturally horribly stubborn, actively pursuing submission in my marriage has been a huge blessing to me as well. I've become much less stringent and a little more easy-going. It's worked out in both of our favors.

When deciding if I should pursue marriage with him, one of the first questions I asked myself was "will I be able to submit to him once he is my husband?" Knowing that I could answer "yes" to that was a big part of making the decision to marry him. If I doubted his decision making skills, then the wedding would have been a certain no-go.

However, it may not work for everyone and I think submission means different things to different people. So I hate to be like "wives, get to submittin'!!!" when I know that everyone has a different idea of what that means.

 

[LinkH]

My husband hates that. That's his pet peeve with submission.

Sometimes I don't like having to make decisions. But the wife submission thing kind of forces the man to be decisive and make decisions for his family.

 

[LinkH]

During the time when this Scripture was written -- and I don't know if things are still like this, I know nothing of modern Jewish culture -- the women and the men would sit on different sides or areas of the temple, structure, wherever they were at. There was a mens section and a womens section. So something that had started occuring in this particular church was that the women were getting chatty during the service, and they would call out to their husbands, "Hey Harry, what does he mean by that?" So the author of this Scripture was pointing out simply a very practical issue. Be quiet in church, if you have a question for your husband, ask him after you get home, not during the service.

This is a bit of conjecture on the part of interpreters. We don't know if the predominantly Gentile church in Corinth divided the church into men's and women's sections or if the early Jerusalem church, with its meeting in homes, followed synagogue protocols. And even if they did, we don't know from the text of scripture or any historical text that this is what Paul is talking about. The fact that numerous preachers have put forth this interpretation of the passage in sermons doesn't prove that this was the case.

I Corinthians 14 is not the only passage that indicates that husbands should instruct their wives in the word.

Ephesians 5
25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word,
(NIV)

 

[JRSut1000]

LinkH, how do you see the latter part of that verse? "to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word,"?

 

[LinkH]

And I dont think the submit verse even means "submit" ..not after Psalms has shown the translation...even though during those times ..it would have been to a womans benefit ..to be more of a "yes dear than a over my dead body kind of woman becasue that litterally might be her fait.. her dead body..

You may be referring to the Roman legal custom of letting the head of the household have power of life or death over members of his family. In some cases, a woman's husband would be this person. In other cases, not.

The men had to be advised to "love' their wives for a reason..and becasue of that reason the woman was at his mercy so to speak..men did NOT love their wives.

So you think everyone was a brute back then? What about the Hebrews mentioned in the Old Testament. The Bible mentions cases of men loving women back then. "Love thy neighbor" is in the Old Testament and certainly applies to your wife as well.

.that was a new idea..men collected wives..men had wives for a purpose..and it wasn't "love"..women were traded around and purchased like livestock.

What, historically, are you referring to? Maybe some of the pagans did this, but I don't recall reading where even Greek and Roman pagans actually sold their wives like this. An exception would be divorcing and remarrying for political deals, like how Augustine got his wife, or Philip's wife divorcing him and marrying his brother Herod. I would suspect she was very much for that.

I don't know of any evidence of Jews taking their wives down to the marketplace and selling them like livestock.

Our holy righteous God gave holy commandments relating to husbands paying a bride price for virgins. Is that holy law something you are referring to?

.Perfect example ..Solomon "inherited his dads wives..

I am not familiar with any scripture that indicates that Solomon took his father's wives as his own. That was strictly forbidden in the New Testament. You weren't to have your father's wife, or your sons wife.

Absalom behaved wickedly, sleeping with wives--certain concubines-- his father had left to watch the palace. David did not sleep with these women after, though he provided for them. They had slept with his son. This was an act of wickedness on Absalom's part.

Solomon did decide weather Abishag was to be given in marriage. I suspect none of David's wives were allowed to remarry, since having the wife of a former king was a very politically-charged issue. Perhaps this is why David wanted Micah back from Paltiel as well.

 

[Avniel]

I agree..and there were wmen in the Bible that werent just standing ther clueless waiting for a "man" to depart the knowledge..

Also ..hwo are women supposed to "work out their own salvation" in trembling and fear if she cant even interpret the word in the Bible without her husband telling her what it MEANS TO HER?

Women are accountable to GOD not her husband..her husband isnt her savior..

Dallas

The truth is man is flawed and controlling. Also man is fearful of losing control. By man I mean human....I think the way a lot of people are taking this scripture is very legalistic and not understanding this is a scripture of mentality and spirituality not telling people who runs the house.

I agreed with your earlier statement that submission is not the same thing as being controlled by or the main person making decisions. Clearly in the virtuous woman scripture the woman made the choice to buy the land and she worked the land.

No one will ever find a scripture where it tells man to be a tyrannical dictator of the household. Instead he is to lead with love the same love Jesus showed to the church. I don't think Jesus took away peoples choices He gave them more. He never forces us to believe in Him we do so freely we are always given a choice.

Also I don't think submission is based on anothers actions. I am only responsible for my actions I'm not responsible for my wife's actions.

 

[LinkH]

I was wondering if we could all keep this thread somewhat tightly focused on how a wife submits to her husband and what that looks like. This can be a thread for those who already accept that these passages are important and for today. Could someone else start a thread for those who want to discuss whether we should take the Bible seriously on this issue?

 

[JRSut1000]

Thanks for bringing things back into focus LinkH. I've said a lot already concerning the questions in your OP. Hope they were informative or somewhat what you were looking for.

 

[ke1985]

Sometimes I don't like having to make decisions. But the wife submission thing kind of forces the man to be decisive and make decisions for his family.

Depending on what it is, theres not a reason why both cannot be involved in the final decision.

 

[Avniel]

I was wondering if we could all keep this thread somewhat tightly focused on how a wife submits to her husband and what that looks like. This can be a thread for those who already accept that these passages are important and for today. Could someone else start a thread for those who want to discuss whether we should take the Bible seriously on this issue?

I take the scripture seriously I just doubt that submission means one makes all the final decisions and one just follows them.

 

[chaz345]

I was wondering if we could all keep this thread somewhat tightly focused on how a wife submits to her husband and what that looks like. This can be a thread for those who already accept that these passages are important and for today. Could someone else start a thread for those who want to discuss whether we should take the Bible seriously on this issue?

In terms of what exactly it looks like in day to day practice, I think there's probably as many answers to that as there are marriages where the concept of submission is present at all. IOW I think it is up to each individual couple to decide exactly what it looks like for them in their marriage.