The Rule of Scripture ("Sola Scriptura" as Luther and Calvin called it)

[LittleLambofJesus]

The Church is the pillar and support of the truth, so why would you want to be part of any Church besides the one that Christ started?

And that is of course the one the RCC's first pope Peter started, [at least according to your Denomination/Church]

http://www.christianforums.com/t6790703-31/#post43066817

Following the rule of Charlemagne, Christianity spread throughout Europe which served as a unifying force for the continent. This was in part due to the Great Schism of 1054 where two competing religious authorities, Pope Leo IX of the Roman Catholic Church, and Patriarch Michael I of the Eastern Orthodox faith, excommunicated each other in a dispute over authority..............

 

[ivebeenshown]

And that is of course the one the RCC's first pope Peter started, [at least according to your Denomination/Church]

We don't believe Peter started the Church, we believe Christ did.

 

[sunlover1]

Hey Sunny, have you taken this quiz yet? Here is how I came out

http://www.christianforums.com/t7595315-2/#post58634020
What Denomination Are You (A Quiz)

#1 Presbyterian Church USA

#22 Eastern Orthodox Church
#23 Roman Catholic Church
#24 Mormonism

I will try to check that out!
My time is spread thinner nowadays.

You refute your own statement with your next words.

Not at all. Only from your mindset. I see ALL who are born of Christ
as "The Church" ... iow, ONE church. Could care less what man says.
Or as my kids say "the man"

The body of Christ is not divided. Churches not in communion with each other are divided. Therefore, these churches are not altogether the body of Christ.

There is ONE church....
Lutheran, methodist, baptist.. these divisions are not a God thing.
They are divisions IN THE CHURCH, just as in the NT times.
Paul said in 1 Cor, that they were in division. But did he say that
meant some were NOT part of the body? Heavens no.

9When you follow the desires of your sinful nature, the results are very
clear: sexual immorality, impurity, lustful pleasures, 20idolatry, sorcery,
hostility, quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition,
dissension, division, 21envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and other sins like
these. Let me tell you again, as I have before, that anyone living that sort
of life will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

Incorrect. The Scriptures contain evidence of various governmental offices in the Church, including bishops, elders, and deacons.

And so does my family.
But it's still a family.

A faction/sect/division is a group that splits off of another group -- such as the Lutheran movement splitting off of the Catholic Church.

Paul must have missed that memo.

 

[Thekla]

Is the name of that actually "On Not Three Gods?"

yup

(duh - sorry !)

 

[ivebeenshown]

There is ONE church....
Lutheran, methodist, baptist.. these divisions are not a God thing.
They are divisions IN THE CHURCH, just as in the NT times.
Paul said in 1 Cor, that they were in division. But did he say that
meant some were NOT part of the body? Heavens no.

The situation with the Corinthians was that members of the Church had begun to prefer certain leaders over others, having respect of persons (which James warned against.) There is no evidence that the 'divisions' mentioned in the letter to the Corinthians were doctrinal, such as the divisions we see between the numerous churches that were founded in the second millennium.

Paul said the body of Christ is not divided, it is one. The Lutheran and the Seventh-Day Advent churches are divided, they are not one.

Furthermore, Christ did not found either of these churches. Martin Luther founded one of them, and the other was formed after 'the great disappointment' of the Millerites. Why on earth would I want to be part of any church unless it was the Church that Christ founded?

 

[Ortho_Cat]

MOD HAT ON

This thread has recently undergone a clean-up. If you notice any of your posts missing, this is why.

Please keep the discussion civil and on-topic.

Thanks ~Staff

MOD HAT OFF​

 

[sunlover1]

The situation with the Corinthians was that members of the Church had begun to prefer certain leaders over others, having respect of persons (which James warned against.) There is no evidence that the 'divisions' mentioned in the letter to the Corinthians were doctrinal, such as the divisions we see between the numerous churches that were founded in the second millennium.

And now for the rest of the story:
Bible in Basic English
For divisions are necessary among you, in order that those who have God's approval may be clearly seen among you.
Douay-Rheims Bible
For there must be also heresies: that they also, who are approved, may be made manifest among you.
Darby Bible Translation
For there must also be sects among you, that the approved may become manifest among you.

Paul said the body of Christ is not divided, it is one..

He said CHRIST is not divided.

Furthermore, Christ did not found either of these churches. Martin Luther founded one of them, and the other was formed after 'the great disappointment' of the Millerites. Why on earth would I want to be part of any church unless it was the Church that Christ founded?

oboy
This is getting too far out there for me.

 

[razeontherock]

yup

(duh - sorry !)

Three goods - like flour eggs and sugar? No seriously, a google search for it turned up either the original writing or an article on it ( I can't be sure which, but it seems to be an English version of the original) that really helped out a seeker, so thank you!

 

[razeontherock]

There is no evidence that the 'divisions' mentioned in the letter to the Corinthians were doctrinal,

There ABOLUTELY is! Why else would people prefer one leader over another, if not for the differences in their teaching? And we see those differences needed to be resolved, which is how you come up with the term "Church council."

Minimizing this and then pretending even people like Luther somehow "started a Church" is ... well I don't have a word for it but it's just not a sensible thing to do.

 

[Kirjath-sepher]

1Cr 1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

Just the same, Martin Luther wasnt crucifed for anyone either

 

[razeontherock]

they have the same US constitution. United States, not Divided States.

the United States, not the Divided States.

yet it is the United States, not the Divided States.

And yet you look at those, for whom Christ died, as "other;" untouchable, unclean, outcast, and necessarily separated.

Is this Christ's own perspective? Or does he see a unified Body, held together by the constitution of the Gospel?

HTH

 

[ivebeenshown]

There ABOLUTELY is! Why else would people prefer one leader over another, if not for the differences in their teaching?

It could have been because of the mannerisms of each figure, or which subjects each figure specialized in teaching about, or the type of miracles/healing the leaders performed. Unless you have some explicit evidence, rather than an assumption which may or may not be true, you cannot say with absolute certainty and neither can I.

What we can see plain as day is that some people were preferring some leaders over others -- respect of persons. Why they preferred certain leaders? I don't know.

And we see those differences needed to be resolved, which is how you come up with the term "Church council."

When doctrinal disputes DO arise within the Church, the correct action is to accept what the Church ultimately declares rather than leave the Church to start a new and separate (read: schism) organization.

Minimizing this and then pretending even people like Luther somehow "started a Church" is ... well I don't have a word for it but it's just not a sensible thing to do.

Luther left one organization and founded another, taking many followers with him.

 

[razeontherock]

When doctrinal disputes DO arise within the Church, the correct action is to accept what the Church ultimately declares rather than leave the Church to start a new and separate (read: schism) organization.

This has been proven to be false. No fair claiming "RC Doctrine has never changed," when practices that were abusive and corrupt were exposed, dealt with, and needed reforms put in place. Would that have ever happened without Luther's 95 theses? We'll never know ...

You know very well that if Luther's contemporaries had been willing to do what is right, he would not have left the organization you revere.

 

[ivebeenshown]

And now for the rest of the story:
Bible in Basic English
For divisions are necessary among you, in order that those who have God's approval may be clearly seen among you.
Douay-Rheims Bible
For there must be also heresies: that they also, who are approved, may be made manifest among you.
Darby Bible Translation
For there must also be sects among you, that the approved may become manifest among you.

These divisions are not necessarily related to dogmatic issues, because the context of passage from which you pulled that verse is about, again, respect of persons:

1 Corinthians 11
18For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
19For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
20When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.
21For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken.
22What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? what shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.

He said CHRIST is not divided.

1 Corinthians 12
24For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked.
25That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.


There is schism between the Catholic and the Orthodox churches. There is schism between the SDA and the Lutheran churches. Christ started a Church, and it includes no schism.

oboy
This is getting too far out there for me.

Well, it's true. Christ did not start the Lutheran Church. Luther did.

 

[ivebeenshown]

This has been proven to be false.

Proofs are for math.

No fair claiming "RC Doctrine has never changed," when practices that were abusive and corrupt were exposed, dealt with, and needed reforms put in place.

Practice and preaching are separate entities (if they weren't, hypocrisy would not be possible.) Therefore your reasoning is invalid.

Would that have ever happened without Luther's 95 theses? We'll never know ...

You know very well that if Luther's contemporaries had been willing to do what is right, he would not have left the organization you revere.

Luther was right in calling out corrupt practices, but he was not right in starting a new organization rather than continuing to protest from within the one same church.

 

[sunlover1]

Paul said the body of Christ is not divided, it is one...

...
He said CHRIST is not divided.

1 Corinthians 12
24For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked.
25That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.


There is schism between the Catholic and the Orthodox churches. There is schism between the SDA and the Lutheran churches. Christ started a Church, and it includes no schism.

What then, iyo, is the requirement to be called a Child of God?

Well, it's true. Christ did not start the Lutheran Church. Luther did.

Because you SAY so, makes it so? nah.

Almost everything God does, He does through man.
He WAS here in a one membered body,
He's now here in a many membered body..


Which includes ALL of those who love God, NOT JUST RCs!

 

[LinuxUser]

how many members should a body have. Can one have four arms and nine legs?

 

[Hentenza]

how many members should a body have. Can one have four arms and nine legs?

The members of Christ's Church are all that believe in Him so there are many.

 

[LinuxUser]

What an interesting looking body. Freaky

 

[Hentenza]

What an interesting looking body. Freaky

How so? I hate to break it to you but Catholics are not the only Christians.