What do you suppose is the difference between "hate" and "dislike intensely," or "extreme dislike?"
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CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
God hates atheists
- Thread starter JGG
- Start date
What do you suppose is the difference between "hate" and "dislike intensely," or "extreme dislike?"
Oh, because Phelps himself claims that he's not a hyper-calvinist.
Nevertheless, I was under the impression that Matariki was claiming to be a Calvinist, and also that Calvinists in general were not Christians. I didn't make the connection with the WBC. I wouldn't assume that all Baptists were that extreme...
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GrayAngel
Senior Member
It's not as simple as "God hates unbelievers." To try to put it simply, God has a love for those who will be saved. We don't know who will be saved and who won't, so it would be inaccurate to say that God hates atheists. It would be better to say that God hates people who will remain atheists.
But even that puts the order of things in the wrong place. People who are saved love God, but those who love God do so because God first loved them. God isn't reacting to our faith, but He's the initiator of it. The reason Saul, the persecutor of Christians, became Paul, the writer of much of the New Testament, was because God appeared to Him.
So then, God loves who He loves. Those He loves come into a relationship with Him, becoming Christians. But we do not know the future, and some who live under the banner of Christianity are not saved, while those who are currently atheists may be destined to be saved.
But even that puts the order of things in the wrong place. People who are saved love God, but those who love God do so because God first loved them. God isn't reacting to our faith, but He's the initiator of it. The reason Saul, the persecutor of Christians, became Paul, the writer of much of the New Testament, was because God appeared to Him.
So then, God loves who He loves. Those He loves come into a relationship with Him, becoming Christians. But we do not know the future, and some who live under the banner of Christianity are not saved, while those who are currently atheists may be destined to be saved.
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GrayAngel said:
This couldn't be more wrong....
Why would you believe in something with zero confidence that you were given salvation? One can know and it is by faith and grace, simple as that. Don't fall for this wishy washy crap. *facepalm*
God hates the system that pollutes our minds and causes us to live deceived lives outside of His fellowship. He hates it when we hurt ourselves and one another. So He brought it all together thru the Son that we may be able to even more easily realize reconciliation with Him as friends. He passionately pursues atheists and other "sinners" who are simply living outside this new creation reality.
Christ's death was all inclusive, rendering sin, law, and death to be incapable of separating us from a holy God desiring reconciliation with us and working hard to bring us into awareness of this fact. Much like Saul, His anger wasn't direct at him but was shown grace.
The Son has done it all on our behalfs and finished it once and for all. The only reason men perceive God as angry is because they have become enemies with Him in their own mind. Key word " in their own minds", fantasy, make believe, and thus not reality. The reality still remains that we all have been included in Christs death. Just so many have not realized this and don't live in it.
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razeontherock
Well-Known Member
Excellent post, LR! Continuing on that, none of us are in a position to state where another may be wrt final Judgment. It seems clear enough to me that your final words, "live in it" are what matters, but this is something I am to be mindful of in my own life.
I'll also point out that doctrinal differences such as what has been addressed in the last several posts is not to be debated amongst Christians in this sub-forum. Difficult to avoid sometimes, but I do see the sense of it for the sake of the OP.
I'll also point out that doctrinal differences such as what has been addressed in the last several posts is not to be debated amongst Christians in this sub-forum. Difficult to avoid sometimes, but I do see the sense of it for the sake of the OP.
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GrayAngel
Senior Member
I don't see anything in this post that conflicts with what I've said. Are you sure you properly understood my post?
I'm writing from the perspective of the Biblical point of Predestination, which states that we can do nothing to earn or lose God's love, but that God loved some of us from the start. If you don't believe in Predestination, please refrain from debating with me on the topic. We have threads specifically for the debate.
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Nevermind.
JCG, regardless, you were included with Christ in His death and resurrection. God is not mad at you, He has fulfilled your works for you and wanted the path to be clear of any obstacles for Him to be called your friend.
JCG, regardless, you were included with Christ in His death and resurrection. God is not mad at you, He has fulfilled your works for you and wanted the path to be clear of any obstacles for Him to be called your friend.
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GrayAngel
Senior Member
You're really intent on starting a debate here, aren't you? Feel free to visit my thread on the subject, rather than derailing this thread any further. But please, if you do go, try to read what has already been said so I don't end up repeating myself.
http://www.christianforums.com/t7580703/
The bolded portion above shows tells me one of two things:
1. We're not as much in disagreement as you think. You're saying that God loved us BEFORE we could choose to love Him. This is God choosing to love us, regardless of anything we've done. And without the unmerited love of God, we're all in trouble.
2. Or you believe that God loves everyone, including a non-repentant sinner, which is completely opposed to what the Bible actually teaches. And if you're trying to convince an unbeliever with your own personal opinions instead of with the authority of scripture, then I don't see the point.
Either way, there's no sense in being so fearful of ideas contrary to your own. Instead of getting all worked up, you could see this as a learning experience.
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GrayAngel said:
For reference I removed the post, but you beat me in response time. Let each man be convinced in his own mind.
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So, if the Biblical point of predestination is true, why is not reasonable to say that in the very least, God does not love those who are not predestined?
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I do not subscribe to the predestination viewpoint.
God loves EVERY SINGLE human that he has created. It is the human that chooses out of their own free will to reject him.
He is like any parent who may be disappointed by the behaviour of their children. When all is said and done our behaviour over our entire life will be weighed up and some of us will be rewarded with eternal 'ice-cream and playtime' while others receive eternal 'timeout'.
Blessings
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Okay, but the question presumes that the predestination viewpoint is true..."
That doesn't appear to be true: [God] hatest all workers of iniquity. Right from the OP. Why wouldn't God hate atheists, the workers of the second greatest iniquity (or so I've been told)?
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oi_antz
Opposed to Untruth.
I think a better understanding of "predestination" and "free will" is required before this can be properly understood. We are told right from the beginning of the story that God has given us the ability to choose. It began when He gave a single command and the human discovered how to distrust His advice. So the human has been battling with free choice ever since, this is why we each must choose right from wrong all our lives, because we are agents of free will. Some of us will choose to be selfish as Adam and Eve were, but some of us will choose to be selfless as Jesus was.
God knows who is who, this is how God is able to know who is saved even before they make the decision to accept salvation. How does God know something that hasn't already happened? Because God is the creator of the world, it is His masterpiece and we are told that He knows every single hair on our head and every grain of sand on the shore. With today's knowledge we can safely presume that He knows every atom, so there is literally nothing that He doesn't know.
With that in mind, and the particular problem of sin in His world, trying to balance every person's sense of contentment while there are people who work iniquity resulting in suffering, chaos and general aggravation, it would seem fair for Him to hate those who are uncooperative with His law - ie "workers of iniquity". Whether atheism qualifies as a "work of iniquity" is probably not fair, since there are many reasons why someone might have lost their faith in God. Combine that with the contention that believers show as they look down their nose at atheist's, and we get some rather aching souls.
So JGG, now I will address your OP, I hope I can say something that will help you feel comforted by God's justice:
Is this verse saying that all those who say "there is no God" are fools? Or is it saying that there is a particular type of person who is a fool, who has said "there is no God"? Does this mean that every atheist automatically qualifies as a fool? I hope your logic doesn't contest mine. Let's look how it was said in the interlinear translation:
Again this passage is describing a "decadent one". Are you a "decadent one"? Is it fair to say that all atheist's are "decadent ones"? I don't think so. I think when king David wrote this, he must have had a particular type of person in mind, and if he had known you as well as I have come to know you, I don't think he would be writing about you in this manner. I can show a number of verses that I would use to describe you but let us not digress.
Why you think these people qualify as speakers of truth? I think you need to develop a better sense of taste. Just my opinion.
You shouldn't believe in a God who hates you, which is why you need to ask God for wisdom when reading His word. Not everyone is capable of seeing light when they read the bible, some people see darkness. If you are only going to rely on the wisdom of your fellow man it will perish like our bones. If you are serious about knowing the light of Christ you will need to literally ask for it from God.
It certainly seems likely that God hates "workers of iniquity" and the fools who puff themselves up, so proud to contest Him. If you still can't visualize it, ask yourself how much you love a prickle in your finger.
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razeontherock
Well-Known Member
Just saying I concur with Antz' rendition of Psalm 53, that the thrust is on decadence, not atheism. For context, read Psalm 51, and notice how it connects through to chapter 53; powerful stuff!
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GrayAngel
Senior Member
It isn't unreasonable to say that. However, there's not much point in us dwelling on it. Only God knows who is and isn't predestined, so we treat everyone as if they may one day be saved.
Also, there's not much point in believing in a God who hates you. If you're going to believe in God, believe that He loves you and love like it. If you are able to do so, then God must have loved you all along. But if you're not going to believe in God, then to you He's just imaginary. It's silly to worry about what an imaginary being thinks.
I do not subscribe to the predestination viewpoint.
God loves EVERY SINGLE human that he has created. It is the human that chooses out of their own free will to reject him.
He is like any parent who may be disappointed by the behaviour of their children. When all is said and done our behaviour over our entire life will be weighed up and some of us will be rewarded with eternal 'ice-cream and playtime' while others receive eternal 'timeout'.
Blessings
What kind of loving father would send their child to an "eternal timeout" (ie Hell)? Your analogy doesn't work. Furthermore, it's Biblically false. The Bible makes it very clear that God does not love every single human being.
Malachi 1:2-5 - “I have loved you,” says the LORD.
“But you ask, ‘How have you loved us?’
“Was not Esau Jacob’s brother?” declares the LORD. “Yet I have loved Jacob, but Esau I have hated, and I have turned his hill country into a wasteland and left his inheritance to the desert jackals.”
Edom may say, “Though we have been crushed, we will rebuild the ruins.”
But this is what the LORD Almighty says: “They may build, but I will demolish. They will be called the Wicked Land, a people always under the wrath of the LORD. You will see it with your own eyes and say, ‘Great is the LORD—even beyond the borders of Israel!'”
The idea that we're all God's children is not Biblical either. We're enemies of God by default, separated from Him by our sin. But it's only through Christ's redemption that we obtain the right to be called children of God. Nowhere in the Bible will you see the unsaved referred to as children of God, but what you can find is where they are called children of Satan.
John 8:41-47 - “You are doing the works of your own father.”
“We are not illegitimate children,” they protested. “The only Father we have is God himself.”
Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me. Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me? Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”
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Okay if the question presumes that 'predestination' is true which is held by a minority of Christians then I'm just going to make a couple of points and sit back and observe.
Catholics are only called to hold that Providence and Free-will are both existent and compatible and that God does not elect people to damnation.
God doesn't hate atheists. He was God made flesh to experience life as a human with all its trials and temptations and he willingly chose to suffer and die so that all could have access to Salvation.
One word describes why God wouldn't hate atheists - it is called 'love'. All the world kneels before love, it is that powerful. It may sound cliched but that's it.
You know the love a parent has for their child, nothing comes close, that is what I use to describe Gods love for all humans although it is an entirely insufficient analogy. He is like a human parent who will do anything for their children,he loves us that much and more in spite of our viewpoints and behaviour.
Blessings
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If God is love how can God be hate also?
Matthew 5
Love for Enemies
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[i] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Matthew 5
Love for Enemies
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[i] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
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chilehed
Veteran
Logically, the statement "all A are B" does not mean "B, therefore A". So when it says "the fool hath said there is no God" you can't validly conclude that it means "anyone who thinks there is no God is a fool".
So you have to look at the entirety of the passages, which specifically speak of evildoers (the language is quite colorful). And yes, God hates evil actions.
No, it describes evildoers, the wicked, in that way. But someone whose life is generally characterized by good behavior isn't an evildoer merely by the fact that he happens for believe that there is no God.
Most Christians would agree that anyone who does a good act does it solely by the grace of God.... I certainly would have said that when I was a Calvinist, and I still say it now that I'm a Catholic. That's what the Catholic Church teaches.
And I've known lots of atheists who do good works, which are legitimately good - good act, good motive, good circumstances - even when it is a hardship on them.
So since the acts are good, and no one can do good acts without God working in their lives, I have to logically conclude that God is working in their lives and that they are cooperating with his grace.
And someone who cooperates with the grace God gives is no fool, even if they don't consciously know him or understand where the grace comes from.
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razeontherock
Well-Known Member
Hey, the last 2 posts by RC's I wholeheartedly agree with! Chilehed, you did a very concise job of making a point I have expressed repeatedly. It really does my heart good to see that the RCC teaches this!
If Calvinistic type predestination were true, it would help an awful lot of things make sense. This is one of the first 2 topics I explored upon finding CF. The idea just doesn't pass muster per Scripture.
If Calvinistic type predestination were true, it would help an awful lot of things make sense. This is one of the first 2 topics I explored upon finding CF. The idea just doesn't pass muster per Scripture.
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