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Whats the worst that can happen?
- Thread starter Ken-1122
- Start date
oi_antz
Opposed to Untruth.
Isaiah 29:13
And so the Lord says, These people say they are mine. They honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. And their worship of me is nothing but man-made rules learned by rote.
rote 1 (rt)
n.
1. A memorizing process using routine or repetition, often without full attention or comprehension: learn by rote.
2. Mechanical routine.
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Okay I think I understand. I would say I was rote until the age of 18 when I became serious about finding God and getting saved (which led to my current non-belief) Had I been content with being "rote" with no desire to take things to the next level, I would have probably continued to believe because I would not have had a reason to stop.
Ken
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razeontherock
Well-Known Member
It would be interesting to see what you did to pursue Faith past the "rote" stage ...
I do suggest that those who persevere in their Faith do something different than those who do not, and insight can be gleaned from such a comparison. A more valid comparison is against the plumb line of the Word of God.
I do suggest that those who persevere in their Faith do something different than those who do not, and insight can be gleaned from such a comparison. A more valid comparison is against the plumb line of the Word of God.
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What I did to get past the "rote" stage was I began to read the bible with an attempt to understand what I was reading, and I prayed to get saved, and eventually I began to pray for a better understanding of the bible, becaues so many of the contridictions and errors I was finding in the bible caused me to assume the problem was with my understanding not the bible itself.
Ken
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There was no specific point; it was more of a gradual thing. I guess when I finally gave up trying to get saved and decided to just leave it in the hands of God to save me, that was probably the beginning of my gradual loss of faith.
Ken
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razeontherock
Well-Known Member
Well I certainly wasn't there and don't know, but I do hope you can take this the way it's intended. In your case, I see something in common with virtually every other case of someone opening up about being a "former Christian;" no mention of the Holy Spirit, and no demonstration of having any real understanding of how He interacts in the life of a believer. I can assure you that w/o the HS, I was a miserable failure as a Christian and don't think I would have professed much longer. Of course the same can be said of St Peter ...
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oi_antz
Opposed to Untruth.
Well it's good to see that you are honest enough not to masquerade as something that you're not. However, I do have to wonder, why do you not believe that you are saved? Have you exchanged your faith for sinfulness, or is there just a lack of God's presence in your life?
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Jesus is the word of God. He shows exactly how good God is, and he came to clear up all our misunderstandings the OT readers may have had of his (1 of his countless works he was successfully able to accomplish) .
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(quote) I do have to wonder, why do you not believe that you are saved?
(reply) Well right now I dont believe in God; at the time I didnt think I was saved because I never experienced God.
(quote) Have you exchanged your faith for sinfulness
(reply) I guess it depends upon how you define sinfulness. If it means to no longer believe, then the answer is yes. If it means bad behavior, the answer is no.
(quote) or is there just a lack of God's presence in your life?
(reply) right now I have issues with the structure and claims of the religion itself. Before I think it was just a lack of Gods presence in my life.
Ken
(reply) Well right now I dont believe in God; at the time I didnt think I was saved because I never experienced God.
(quote) Have you exchanged your faith for sinfulness
(reply) I guess it depends upon how you define sinfulness. If it means to no longer believe, then the answer is yes. If it means bad behavior, the answer is no.
(quote) or is there just a lack of God's presence in your life?
(reply) right now I have issues with the structure and claims of the religion itself. Before I think it was just a lack of Gods presence in my life.
Ken
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How about everybody else? A voice from the sky would clear things up for everybody; don't cha think?
K
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oi_antz
Opposed to Untruth.
What made you lose your belief in God? It's a two choice matter, I can't understand how you can gradually lose your faith in God. To me and from experience you would have had to fallen out with Him over something. Are you certain that you can't pin-point the thing that caused you to change your mind from 'yes' to 'no'? Please be patient with me here, can you help me understand how it happened?
I don't know that disbelieving is a sin itself, you might have a good reason for it, especially seeing the atrocities that are committed in the name of God. I guess you'll tell me when you answer my question above. One thing I have to ask about this though: do you perceive that it is more rewarding not to believe in God, or is it just impossible for you to perceive that such an enormous entity exists and can be understood or spoken of by a meager human being?
Do you think this is due to the particular religion you have become accustomed to? I ask this because I have been chatting with an atheist on another thread and he has exposed me to a very evil branch of the faith which I have never personally encountered. My faith is only positive, there is nothing negative about it, so it's been a huge shock to learn of the reality he faces. I would say that had I not already known Jesus personally when I discovered this type of Christianity, I would most likely have become atheist. The bible even describes the activities of evil Christians - called "false teachers". It has been difficult to convince him that Christianity itself is not evil, and he's become aware of a certain war over the kingdom of God which has been going on ever since Jesus laid claim to it. I hope to see improvement in the balance of righteousness vs evil, but we don't know what the future holds so all we can do is make our best effort to make the world a better place. I wonder, is there anything that really irks you about Christianity that maybe you think I could shine light on?
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You would get enough proof if you truly seach for him from all your heart (ezek), much better proof, just like countless others who did and converted to christianity at adult ages.
And by doing what you said , "Faith" wouldnt be needed anymore, which is a priority sought by God along with love. In order to get proof , you need to hope that this God exists, then search for him from all your heart. If every person did this, there would have been only christianity in this world, but because people dont care if this God exists or not, then they dont deserve to recognize his existance, which is very easy to do if someone intends to.
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Oi antz (quote)
“What made you lose your belief in God? It's a two choice matter, I can't understand how you can gradually lose your faith in God. To me and from experience you would have had to fallen out with Him over something. Are you certain that you can't pin-point the thing that caused you to change your mind from 'yes' to 'no'? Please be patient with me here, can you help me understand how it happened?”
(reply) When I gave up with trying to get saved via my own efforts and left it in God’s hands instead, I quit trying so hard.
Quit trying so hard meant getting “saved” was no longer my focus. I no longer prayed to get saved, I didn’t go to church as often, (instead of going Sunday morning and night, Tuesday prayer meetings, and Friday bible study, I only went Sunday morning) and I no longer blocked out the obvious contradictions and flaws of the bible when I read it, and eventually I allowed myself to question what I had been taught about Christianity and religion. (Nearly all of the threads I start on this forum are the questions I had while I was losing my faith)
I also allowed myself to see what some of the other religions and other people were doing. I knew a guy who was honest, nice, and his behavior was as clean as any Christian I knew. When I found out he was not a Christian, or didn’t even go to church I was confused on how a person could behave such a way without any guidance from the Holy Spirit. I remember once seeing a European documentary about the voodoo religion and the guest voodoo worshiper was describing how during the service the spirit comes down and takes over everyone’s bodies (when I was trying to get saved I would have never allowed myself to see such a thing) and when it happened everybody in the temple began to roll on the ground and babble and shake and I thought “this looks just like what happens in my church, but we call it “speaking in tongues” at that point I thought only Christians did that; and I thought how can I call what we do from God but what they do evil? I then found out from a Mormon friend that they do it as well but they all it “purging” and I found out that some Jews did it, and possibly other religions.
I guess you can say when I put it in God’s hands, because God didn’t do anything, I used my effort to take a more critical look at what I had been taught and I allowed myself to see what others were doing and I considered the possibility that what I was taught was wrong.
Eventually I quit going to church all together and then I began to consider myself agnostic; it took many years for me to get comfortable with the term Atheist. But none of this stuff happened over night; it took me nearly 10 years for me to go from putting it into God’s hands to calling myself a non-believer.
Like I said before, it was a gradual thing, but I think it started when I lost my focus and left everything in Gods hands.
(quote) “I don't know that disbelieving is a sin itself, you might have a good reason for it, especially seeing the atrocities that are committed in the name of God. I guess you'll tell me when you answer my question above. One thing I have to ask about this though: do you perceive that it is more rewarding not to believe in God, or is it just impossible for you to perceive that such an enormous entity exists and can be understood or spoken of by a meager human being?”
(reply) when I was Christian, because I knew I wasn’t saved, I believed if I died I would go to Hell. I found it difficult to be truly happy knowing you are going to go to Hell.
When I quit believing, the threat of Hell no longer scared me, and I also allowed myself to know that I was a good person because my behavior was good and I no longer had to define myself as a sinner.
I guess you can say, when I was Christian, I was unable to love myself because of what I was taught thus I needed God to love me (which prompted my attempts to get saved) but when I realized God didn’t exist, I was finally able to love myself.
(quote) “Do you think this is due to the particular religion you have become accustomed to? I ask this because I have been chatting with an atheist on another thread and he has exposed me to a very evil branch of the faith which I have never personally encountered. My faith is only positive, there is nothing negative about it, so it's been a huge shock to learn of the reality he faces. I would say that had I not already known Jesus personally when I discovered this type of Christianity, I would most likely have become atheist. The bible even describes the activities of evil Christians - called "false teachers". It has been difficult to convince him that Christianity itself is not evil, and he's become aware of a certain war over the kingdom of God which has been going on ever since Jesus laid claim to it. I hope to see improvement in the balance of righteousness vs evil, but we don't know what the future holds so all we can do is make our best effort to make the world a better place. I wonder, is there anything that really irks you about Christianity that maybe you think I could shine light on?”
(reply) I think it has more to do with what I was taught about Christianity, and what I read from the Bible.
Ken
“What made you lose your belief in God? It's a two choice matter, I can't understand how you can gradually lose your faith in God. To me and from experience you would have had to fallen out with Him over something. Are you certain that you can't pin-point the thing that caused you to change your mind from 'yes' to 'no'? Please be patient with me here, can you help me understand how it happened?”
(reply) When I gave up with trying to get saved via my own efforts and left it in God’s hands instead, I quit trying so hard.
Quit trying so hard meant getting “saved” was no longer my focus. I no longer prayed to get saved, I didn’t go to church as often, (instead of going Sunday morning and night, Tuesday prayer meetings, and Friday bible study, I only went Sunday morning) and I no longer blocked out the obvious contradictions and flaws of the bible when I read it, and eventually I allowed myself to question what I had been taught about Christianity and religion. (Nearly all of the threads I start on this forum are the questions I had while I was losing my faith)
I also allowed myself to see what some of the other religions and other people were doing. I knew a guy who was honest, nice, and his behavior was as clean as any Christian I knew. When I found out he was not a Christian, or didn’t even go to church I was confused on how a person could behave such a way without any guidance from the Holy Spirit. I remember once seeing a European documentary about the voodoo religion and the guest voodoo worshiper was describing how during the service the spirit comes down and takes over everyone’s bodies (when I was trying to get saved I would have never allowed myself to see such a thing) and when it happened everybody in the temple began to roll on the ground and babble and shake and I thought “this looks just like what happens in my church, but we call it “speaking in tongues” at that point I thought only Christians did that; and I thought how can I call what we do from God but what they do evil? I then found out from a Mormon friend that they do it as well but they all it “purging” and I found out that some Jews did it, and possibly other religions.
I guess you can say when I put it in God’s hands, because God didn’t do anything, I used my effort to take a more critical look at what I had been taught and I allowed myself to see what others were doing and I considered the possibility that what I was taught was wrong.
Eventually I quit going to church all together and then I began to consider myself agnostic; it took many years for me to get comfortable with the term Atheist. But none of this stuff happened over night; it took me nearly 10 years for me to go from putting it into God’s hands to calling myself a non-believer.
Like I said before, it was a gradual thing, but I think it started when I lost my focus and left everything in Gods hands.
(quote) “I don't know that disbelieving is a sin itself, you might have a good reason for it, especially seeing the atrocities that are committed in the name of God. I guess you'll tell me when you answer my question above. One thing I have to ask about this though: do you perceive that it is more rewarding not to believe in God, or is it just impossible for you to perceive that such an enormous entity exists and can be understood or spoken of by a meager human being?”
(reply) when I was Christian, because I knew I wasn’t saved, I believed if I died I would go to Hell. I found it difficult to be truly happy knowing you are going to go to Hell.
When I quit believing, the threat of Hell no longer scared me, and I also allowed myself to know that I was a good person because my behavior was good and I no longer had to define myself as a sinner.
I guess you can say, when I was Christian, I was unable to love myself because of what I was taught thus I needed God to love me (which prompted my attempts to get saved) but when I realized God didn’t exist, I was finally able to love myself.
(quote) “Do you think this is due to the particular religion you have become accustomed to? I ask this because I have been chatting with an atheist on another thread and he has exposed me to a very evil branch of the faith which I have never personally encountered. My faith is only positive, there is nothing negative about it, so it's been a huge shock to learn of the reality he faces. I would say that had I not already known Jesus personally when I discovered this type of Christianity, I would most likely have become atheist. The bible even describes the activities of evil Christians - called "false teachers". It has been difficult to convince him that Christianity itself is not evil, and he's become aware of a certain war over the kingdom of God which has been going on ever since Jesus laid claim to it. I hope to see improvement in the balance of righteousness vs evil, but we don't know what the future holds so all we can do is make our best effort to make the world a better place. I wonder, is there anything that really irks you about Christianity that maybe you think I could shine light on?”
(reply) I think it has more to do with what I was taught about Christianity, and what I read from the Bible.
Ken
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That's easy for you to say; and I'm sure you even believe it! But I know from personal experience that what you say is not true.
Ken
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razeontherock
Well-Known Member
Did you know this is a specific heresy, (called Marcionism, IIRC) condemned by the early Church? Apparently they thought it best left to voodoo
You've seen me speak on "dominion" more than once. What you did was neglect your God-given dominion, asking Him to do what He placed under your responsibility. The fact that it took 10 years to fail is evidence of His Mercy. The fact that you even think about any of this at all, is evidence He has not yet given up on you. Don't take that for granted!
Holy contradictions Batman!! When you weren't saved you weren't Christian. I'm merely guessing here, but it seems this is unexplored territory? This much would certainly make sense of everything else you've said.
This is not quite, but almost the exact opposite of the Gospel!
1) God Loves you
2) If there is any "saving" to be done, it is God's doing, and His desire; not your's or mine. Adam and Eve did not go looking for God in the garden story, but it was God who came looking for them ...
3) God's Love desires the highest good for us. This makes "loving ourselves" a moot point that has no bearing. Pursuing our own good is replaced with Loving God Himself, which is how what's good for us gets accomplished. (Within Christianity)
This is a "yes" answer to what Antz asked, which is if your conclusions are based in the particular religion you had become accustomed to. We have seen very drastic differences between your former religion, and Biblical Christianity - just in this one post! I don't mean to offend you, but since I see it I must point it out to you.
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