Physical Divinity of Christ

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I can see that you workship Mary; and it is not my porpose to ofend you. I can keep discussing this topic, demostrating that the perpetual virginity is a doctrine based on later believes not included in the Bible. But it will be an end less discussion since you will never give up in your workshiping to Mary; the Virgin; the Mother of God; Teokokos.

The main topic is about the divinity of Jesus body. I presume that it is conected to the Virgin Mary, Mother of God. Aparently it is necessary for her to be mother of a divine crerature, even in the fleah. How is that a body can be divine?

No, I do not. God held her in very high esteem, so high in fact that He chose her to be the mother of His Son. For her to be so highly regarded by God, should we not also regard her in the same manner?

Speculating on her sex life any further than what can only be seen as ambiguous references does not honor, but degrades.

As others here have stated, only the smallest minority of Christians deny Semper Virago. I believe that Mary remained a virgin all of her life.

Does one's salvation depend on believing this; no. Does it depend on not believing this; no again.

Scripture also tells us that every nation will call her "blessed"; that would be all of us I would think. Now, you can argue that those were "her words" that are found in the Gospel; but that would question the validity of the Gospel itself; in doing so, one would call into question the whole of Scripture; this is also a place where no Christian, especially those who hold Sola Scriptura would venture.

Regarding the physical divinity of Christ; what's wrong with having a little faith? Faith is what it's all about.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

This is a dangerous walk to walk. As Christians, we have a "cloud of witnesses" (Hebrews 12:1); our brothers and sisters in Christ. We should learn from their lives and teaching. Do I believe every single doctrine every Church Father ever taught? No. But do I believe that we can learn something from their interpretation of the Scriptures? Yes.

This changed my view on Mary's perpetual virginity. I opposed this view, but then I discovered that almost every single Christian, from the second-generation disciples up to the children of the Reformation (and indeed, most Christians today still do), taught that Mary was the "ever-virgin".
Were all of them wrong? And do I have greater knowledge of this than the greatest theologians in the history of Christianity? I would be arrogant to claim so.

Also, a quick note on the Greek: the Greek word used for "until" ("heos"), doesn't always imply a change. It's even like this in English; "Until the day I die, I will not eat turkey." Does this mean that I will eat turkey after my death? So "until" can simply mean "up to that point".
Then we are just as far, since both interpretations (the perpetual-virgin one and the non-perpetual-virgin one) seems to be just as valid.

Illogical conclusion based on the evidence given. Defending the position that the Holy Bible supports St. Mary the Theotokos' perpetual virginity and was the belief of the Early Church does not imply any sort of Marian worship. That fact that John Calvin, who denounced Saintly venerations, nonetheless accepted the doctrine that St. Mary the Theotokos was a perpetual virgin and also truly the Mother of God is proof enough.

Worship is an entirely different topic. You are now grasping for straws, as I warned that you would start to do, because you didn't follow my friendly advice to cease debating with either Mark or myself when we are both clearly overclassing you and start to learn. Mark, I, and many others here, including several Baptists (which you claim to be; mind you, it is impossible to be a Baptist and to deny the Trinity, since that is a dogmatic part of orthodox Baptist theology), could help you learn and understand.



I'm going to be perfectly straight with you: I have been extremely patient with you. I have offered you excellent advice on how to proceed, how to learn, how to debate and argue, given you information to improve your schema and scholarship, and how to avoid a truly embarrassing situation. The offer is still there, if you have had enough of a "thrashing".

I have shown where in Holy Writ where the basis is based on the Greek word for bothers and gave you a link to a lexicon for you to see it for yourself. That lexicon is a credible source. You need to either prove that it isn't or concede the point.



1. As I proved above, worship or veneration is an entirely different topic.
2. I do not worship any Saint nor angel. I venerate them, which is also entirely Scriptural.



Which I have shown.



It is necessary or else you deny Jesus to be God.

I have already shown how Jesus' Body is Divine.

Well stated Gentlemen!

 

[Goinheix]

It was a minority of christians denaying the flat Earth; and that minority held the truth; and that minority were call heretics, and that minority were expulsed from the church.

But you didnt answer my question; wich is the topic of this thread. What it is the phisical divinity of Jesus body? In fact, the Gospels are telling us of a Jesus without any divine atribute at all; and Paul is explaining to us that God the Son did empty out of all his divine atributes for entering the World. Then...what is the phisical divinity of Jesus?

 

[PaladinValer]

It was a minority of christians denaying the flat Earth; and that minority held the truth; and that minority were call heretics, and that minority were expulsed from the church.

St. Augustine of Hippo...in the minority... a heretic...and not just excommunicated but anathematizd?



Okay, we've moved completely into the utterly outrageous and just plain...ugggg.

Staff, far be it of me to advise you all, but for the sake of sanity, can we end this? There is no point to this thread anymore other than thwomping someone with no clear chance and who brinks. There is no honor, no justice, and no value to it. Let there be a merciful end to this...I am begging you all.

But you didnt answer my question; wich is the topic of this thread. What it is the phisical divinity of Jesus body? In fact, the Gospels are telling us of a Jesus without any divine atribute at all; and Paul is explaining to us that God the Son did empty out of all his divine atributes for entering the World. Then...what is the phisical divinity of Jesus?

More flirtations with absolute unorthodoxy. Need I say more?

I'm done. I get no satisfaction of proverbially beating to a bloody pulp anyone at this level of non-proficiency, and only a sophist or a sadist would enjoy this. I'm personally neither. There is no dignity left in this...let there be mercy.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

St. Augustine of Hippo...in the minority... a heretic...and not just excommunicated but anathematizd?



Okay, we've moved completely into the utterly outrageous and just plain...ugggg.

Staff, far be it of me to advise you all, but for the sake of sanity, can we end this? There is no point to this thread anymore other than thwomping someone with no clear chance and who brinks. There is no honor, no justice, and no value to it. Let there be a merciful end to this...I am begging you all.

More flirtations with absolute unorthodoxy. Need I say more?

I'm done. I get no satisfaction of proverbially beating to a bloody pulp anyone at this level of non-proficiency, and only a sophist or a sadist would enjoy this. I'm personally neither. There is no dignity left in this...let there be mercy.

I'm going to try to get this back on track one last time...

But you didnt answer my question; wich is the topic of this thread. What it is the phisical divinity of Jesus body?

Well, actually we did; or tried to at least, but you need to take our answers at face value, not pick and choose a point here and a point there.

In fact, the Gospels are telling us of a Jesus without any divine atribute at all;

Are they? I think not.

First look at all the miracles performed by Jesus.

Also, I spoke of the Transfiguration at least three times, which you either ignored, forgot about, or did not see. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume that you either forgot or did not see them.

and Paul is explaining to us that God the Son did empty out of all his divine atributes for entering the World. Then...what is the phisical divinity of Jesus?

Please give us a reference for this, so we can look at it in context. If you have already, forgive me; I've missed it; pleas restate if that is the case.

 

[Goinheix]

Back on track: What could be or mean the phisical divinity of Jesus? I have formulated this question few times and the answer have always been about the teokokos. Can you answer the quetion wich open the thread?

 

[Goinheix]

The main topic is about the divinity of Jesus body. I presume that it is conected to the Virgin Mary, Mother of God. Aparently it is necessary for her to be mother of a divine crerature, even in the fleah. How is that a body can be divine?

...

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I'm going to try to get this back on track one last time...



Well, actually we did; or tried to at least, but you need to take our answers at face value, not pick and choose a point here and a point there.



Are they? I think not.

First look at all the miracles performed by Jesus.

Also, I spoke of the Transfiguration at least three times, which you either ignored, forgot about, or did not see. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume that you either forgot or did not see them.




Please give us a reference for this, so we can look at it in context. If you have already, forgive me; I've missed it; pleas restate if that is the case.

I assume then that you refuse to address my post, as I figured.

 

[Goinheix]

The next question is how a physical body can have some divinity? Because that is the topic of the thread.

.

...

 

[Goinheix]

Can some of you clarify what is being said?
Was Jesus body/flesh divine? In wich way?

...
Can we go back to topic?

 

[Jpark]

The main topic is about the divinity of Jesus body. I presume that it is conected to the Virgin Mary, Mother of God. Aparently it is necessary for her to be mother of a divine crerature, even in the fleah. How is that a body can be divine?

A human body is not naturally divine nor does it inherit divinity.

The presence of a divine being makes it divine. As long as that presence is there, it is counted as divine (Exodus 3:5), perhaps it is even God Himself, momentarily. On the other hand, God is in all things (Jeremiah 23:24), and man exists in God (Acts 17:28) who is Jesus (Col. 1:17), but not always in everything (1 Kings 19:11-12), thus indicating that there are levels of His presence that we may experience. This holds true in 1 Samuel 16:14, Gen. 3:8, Gen. 4:16, and Psalm 51:11. Scripture indicates God's Omnipresence yet these and many more show a personal degree of presence.

To put it simply, Jesus is God because He had and has the presence of God at all times. He was obedient in His life (John 15:10; John 16:32), at the point of death (Phil. 2:8; Matt. 26:39; John 18:32), in His death (John 19:30; John 17:4), and He will be obedient (becoming eternal life; John 3:14-15, 1 Cor. 15:45) forever because He is perfected (Heb. 5:9).

Of course, it's far too late for anyone else to claim that title that was given to Jesus. In fact, they would never have the opportunity because:

1) their sinful inclination is too great to be resisted
2) Jesus was the same as God before He took flesh. No man has ascended into heaven (John 3:13), except Him and those in Him (Mark 9:7, 2 Kings 2:11)! And no man has gone up to the highest heavens except Jesus (Eph. 4:10).
3) Holy Spirit coming upon Mary is not the reason why Jesus was born without sin. John the baptist was born filled with the Holy Spirit while in his mother's womb and nowhere does it say he was without sin. Mary calls God her savior so how could she be without sin? Jesus was born without sin because He is God. It's because He had the Holy Spirit 100% (John 3:34-35).

As for Mary, she is just the mother of Jesus. Not the mother of God. Matt. 12:46-50. She may have been humble, obedient, and accepted by God but she didn't travel with Jesus' disciples who were even more closer to Jesus as a result of going with Him. So the first will be last and the last will be first; the disciples are greater than Mary.

 

[Goinheix]

To put it simply, Jesus is God because He had and has the presence of God at all times. .

Good (all the post).
Probably you want to refrase that sentence before they give you the name of somev old herecy.
Thanks

 

[Jpark]

Good (all the post).
Probably you want to refrase that sentence before they give you the name of somev old herecy.
Thanks

Don't misinterpret please. I do believe that Jesus was God before He became flesh.

Of course there are additional reasons why He having the Holy Spirit at all times is different from a man having the Holy Spirit at all times. He was the first after all.

There is significance in being the firstborn.

Col. 1:18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.

But I am heresy. To attribute my doctrine to heresy wouldn't make a difference.

 

[Goinheix]

Trying to give Jesus some phisical divinity is just an attempt to get Mary in a higher pedestal. But the divinity of fesh is an herecy itself.

 

[Jpark]

Trying to give Jesus some phisical divinity is just an attempt to get Mary in a higher pedestal. But the divinity of fesh is an herecy itself.

So that's you were saying in your first post?

Well I don't believe flesh can be inherently divine. As I said, it was because the Holy Spirit was with Jesus at all times in fullness that Jesus was divine despite being flesh.

 

[Goinheix]

So that's you were saying in your first post?

Well I don't believe flesh can be inherently divine. As I said, it was because the Holy Spirit was with Jesus at all times in fullness that Jesus was divine despite being flesh.

I am not sure if saying "the Holy Spirit was with Jesus" is technically correct or if it is an herecy. jesus is one with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is his own spirit. Any how, Jesus body was not divine at all; and that is the thread about.

 

[Jpark]

I am not sure if saying "the Holy Spirit was with Jesus" is technically correct or if it is an herecy. jesus is one with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is his own spirit. Any how, Jesus body was not divine at all; and that is the thread about.

But it was made divine in resurrection. Also, the transfiguration shows that Jesus' body was already made divine as a result of the Holy Spirit (cloud)'s presence. The resurrection signifies the Holy Spirit's eternal presence.

Was with Jesus occurs in Luke 5:17. Of course, that does not mean Jesus is not divine because of Mark 5, in which He casts out a demon without the power of the Holy Spirit.

 

[steve_bakr]

And that's a rejection of the Incarnation...

Perhaps what he meant was "Physical divinity is a mystery." We know that God is beyond having a physical shape and form because the physical universe is His creation. God is transcendent. Yet, it says plainly, "The Word became flesh" or "The Word put on flesh." That is God's immanence: Emanuel: God with us. "My Lord and my God." God in human form. God became man. It cannot be logically explained: it is a mystery.

Peace

 

[PaladinValer]

Perhaps what he meant was "Physical divinity is a mystery." We know that God is beyond having a physical shape and form because the physical universe is His creation. God is transcendent. Yet, it says plainly, "The Word became flesh" or "The Word put on flesh." That is God's immanence: Emanuel: God with us. "My Lord and my God." God in human form. God became man. It cannot be logically explained: it is a mystery.

Peace

A mystery accepts the Divinity of the Flesh and Blood and also accepts the fact that we cannot possibly comprehend the entirety of it.

<Staff Edit>

 

[steve_bakr]

At what extend Jesus body was divine?

The creed says "fully human and fully divine." This is the Incarnation.

Peace