What’s the worst that can happen?

[Ken-1122]

Oui antz
(quote) “Is that what made you say Jesus is a thief? I thought you were serious actually”

(reply) I do believe Jesus had his disciples steal the colt. You gotta realize, I don’t believe your Jesus was perfect as you do. To me he was just another religious leader claiming to be something he was not. Now obviously you think he is perfect and all and anything that makes him out to be less than perfect is probably p personal insult to you and your entire world view; thus you see it as bigotry, hateful, and probably evil. (I added that part) I understand that so your reaction doesn’t surprise me.

(quote)” Come on now, you threw the first stone. I am merely demonstrating the hypocrisy of your statement.

(reply) if you define stone throwing as insulting labels, I did no such thing. If you define stone throwing as an honest evaluation of your god, then I will plead guilty

(quote) “Jesus tells us not to judge each other because the same measurement we use to judge will be measured unto us. It is wise advice, don't you agree?

(reply) I do judge, and I expect the same measurement I use to be used against me when applicable; I wouldn’t have it any other way

Chilehed
(quote) “God does us a favor by providing just enough evidence of himself that those who are willing to be in a relationship with him can see it, but those who are not willing aren't forced to……..He's so transcendent that if he did what you are suggesting we couldn't help making our definitive decision at that instant, and if he had done it when I wasn't willing to bind myself to him then I'd have hated him with the same character as Satan.

(reply) Are you kidding me??? No offence intended, but that has got to be one of the most ridicules statements I’ve heard thus far! (as a skeptic I’ve heard some ridicules statements) again; no offence intended but what you just said goes against reason, logic, reality, and even what is written in the bible.

First of all, for God to come out of hiding and make himself known will in no way FORCE anybody to obey him, it will not FORCE anybody to love him, follow him, or have a relationship with him; everybody will still have the freewill option to reject him.

When God made his existence known to people in the bible (Adam and Eve, Moses, Abraham, etc.) did they hate him to the same extent as Satan? When your mother made her existence known when you were a kid, did you hate her? So why would you hate God if he did this?

ken

 

[Matariki]

This video appears to be a bunch of Christians doing what we used to call “preaching to the choir”. There is sooo much that is wrong with this video, I don’t know where to start.
The man asked why doesn’t God perform miracles today as he did yesterday and the response he got was “because he doesn’t have to” then he listed a bunch of ridicules claims such as; anybody with an open mind and an open heart will see the evidence that his god left for us; which implies that only Christians are open minded, that everyone else is closed minded; even those who live in an area where they aren’t exposed to his brand of God.
Or he mentioned that God’s evidence is sufficient for those with an open mind, but it is sufficiently vague so it doesn’t compel those with a closed mind; neglecting to mention that the majority of those who seek God find a different God than his own. And when did vague instructions become a good thing for something as important as God? (assuming he actually existed)
I found the video offensive.

Ken

Dr William Craig is considered to be the top dog of Christian apologetics. I would recommended watching full debates of him, he's done quite a few on the subject.

How is God not preforming miracles morally offensive?
What does he owe us?

 

[oi_antz]

I do believe Jesus had his disciples steal the colt. You gotta realize, I don’t believe your Jesus was perfect as you do. To me he was just another religious leader claiming to be something he was not. Now obviously you think he is perfect and all and anything that makes him out to be less than perfect is probably p personal insult to you and your entire world view; thus you see it as bigotry, hateful, and probably evil. (I added that part) I understand that so your reaction doesn’t surprise me.

I had better warn you while we have the luxury of communication that Jesus has told us we have to answer for every word spoken.

Matthew 12:36
And I tell you this, you must give an account on judgment day for every idle word you speak. 37 The words you say will either acquit you or condemn you.”

If you can open your mind enough, I suggest you should think momentarily from Jesus' perspective - are your words acquitting you or condemning you?

Since you don't know the nature of Jesus' relationship with the owner of the donkey, nor the culture of the time, nor the nature of Jesus and His disciples, you would be much wiser to exercise caution when speaking of things you know nothing about than to blurt opinions that you think are funny. It is not funny at all. In fact there is another warning that is just as relevant:

Luke 17:2
It would be better to be thrown into the sea with a millstone hung around your neck than to cause one of these little ones to fall into sin.

Do be careful. You know the grave is inevitable, so choose your words wisely.

If you define stone throwing as insulting labels, I did no such thing. If you define stone throwing as an honest evaluation of your god, then I will plead guilty

This proves my point. I don't imagine this would be your attitude when facing God. Just remember who the boss is, He outranks you, He outranks me, and He outranks the President. If you don't like Him then it's going to be more of a problem for you than Him, and I am telling you that He's done nothing wrong. All the problems are due to some human who put his foot wrong, God is blameless. And don't presume that you know the nature of God because you don't. All you have is some ants in your pants over some issues you don't properly understand. If you sat down and spoke to God about them, saw things from His point of view then you will understand why He has made the decisions He made. You need to exercise patience and open mindedness, I really wish you do because it would delight me to speak with you about these things in a positive manner. Why are your thoughts so negative?

I do judge, and I expect the same measurement I use to be used against me when applicable; I wouldn’t have it any other way.

I suppose you are right about this.

 

[Ken-1122]

Mataraki (quote) “Dr William Craig is considered to be the top dog of Christian apologetics. I would recommended watching full debates of him, he's done quite a few on the subject.”

(reply) are you serious? Is that the best you guys have got? IMO you guys might wanna get a new front man because if an idiot like me can tear his arguments apart, what do you think some of those more “educated atheists” are gonna do?

(quote) “How is God not preforming miracles morally offensive? What does he owe us?”

(reply) Actually what I found offensive was the implication that only Christians can have an open mind; that everyone else (religious or not) are closed minded.

Oi antz

(quote)”I had better warn you while we have the luxury of communication that Jesus has told us we have to answer for every word spoken……If you can open your mind enough, I suggest you should think momentarily from Jesus' perspective - are your words acquitting you or condemning you…..Do be careful. You know the grave is inevitable, so choose your words wise.

(reply) This is not the first such warning I’ve received. It amazes me how Christians feel a need to warn me of the harm their God can cause me; as if deep down I really believe he exists.

(quote) “Why are your thoughts so negative

(reply) they are not

K

 

[oi_antz]

This is not the first such warning I’ve received. It amazes me how Christians feel a need to warn me of the harm their God can cause me; as if deep down I really believe he exists.

Well His position does demand some serious respect. It is very simple wisdom and very simple foolishness. I see no wisdom in disrespecting God.

 

[Ken-1122]

Well His position does demand some serious respect. It is very simple wisdom and very simple foolishness. I see no wisdom in disrespecting God.

Do you see the wisdom of God addressing the entire world to let us know what he expects of us? Why doesn't he do this?


K

 

[chilehed]

God does us a favor by providing just enough evidence of himself that those who are willing to be in a relationship with him can see it, but those who are not willing aren't forced to……..He's so transcendent that if he did what you are suggesting we couldn't help making our definitive decision at that instant, and if he had done it when I wasn't willing to bind myself to him then I'd have hated him with the same character as Satan.

Are you kidding me??? No offence intended, but that has got to be one of the most ridicules statements I’ve heard thus far! (as a skeptic I’ve heard some ridicules statements) again; no offence intended but what you just said goes against reason, logic, reality, and even what is written in the bible.

First of all, for God to come out of hiding and make himself known will in no way FORCE anybody to obey him, it will not FORCE anybody to love him, follow him, or have a relationship with him; everybody will still have the freewill option to reject him.

I didn't say it would force anyone to obey him, or anything that sounds like it. You need to read more carefully.

When God made his existence known to people in the bible (Adam and Eve, Moses, Abraham, etc.) did they hate him to the same extent as Satan?

They were willing to be in a relationship with him.

Which is consistent with what I actually said.

Now, if you want to stop being rude, and say something like "I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Could you please explain?" then I'll be happy to talk some more. Otherwise I'm done here.

 

[Ken-1122]

I didn't say it would force anyone to obey him, or anything that sounds like it. You need to read more carefully.

They were willing to be in a relationship with him.

Which is consistent with what I actually said.

Now, if you want to stop being rude, and say something like "I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Could you please explain?" then I'll be happy to talk some more. Otherwise I'm done here.

Fair enough; I did not mean to offend. I shall go over what you said and address each of your points.

quote)God does us a favor by providing just enough evidence of himself that those who are willing to be in a relationship with him can see it, but those who are not willing aren't forced to……..

(reply) If God were to provide proof of his existence, nobody would be forced to have a relationship with him, they could simply ignore him, or disobey him.

(quote) He's so transcendent that if he did what you are suggesting we couldn't help making our definitive decision at that instant,

(reply) What decision are you refering to?

(quote)and if he had done it when I wasn't willing to bind myself to him then I'd have hated him with the same character as Satan.

reply)Why wouldn’t you simply ignore him, or disobey him like everyone else who wouldn’t want a relationship with him? Why would you have chosen to hate?

Ken

 

[oi_antz]

Do you see the wisdom of God addressing the entire world to let us know what he expects of us? Why doesn't he do this?


K

Ok, it is not my world and I am not God. I don't know why He has chosen not to do it as you think is most sensible, just a wild guess would be that it would cause some people to believe out of fear, rationality or any other reason that is not necessarily love. If a person doesn't love God, they would not have a good enough reason to be loyal to Him. If God turns His back on someone who doesn't love Him, there might be trouble and we don't want the same kind of trouble in heaven that we have here on earth. Let me know what you think about that.

Further to this, you suggest that God could communicate His expectations in a single address to the world. This doesn't make sense because anyone who knows God will tell you that it takes a lifetime of learning to become all that God expects us to be.

18 “If the world hates you, remember that it hated me first. 19 The world would love you as one of its own if you belonged to it, but you are no longer part of the world. I chose you to come out of the world, so it hates you. 20 Do you remember what I told you? ‘A slave is not greater than the master.’ Since they persecuted me, naturally they will persecute you. And if they had listened to me, they would listen to you. 21 They will do all this to you because of me, for they have rejected the One who sent me. 22 They would not be guilty if I had not come and spoken to them. But now they have no excuse for their sin.

Who is Jesus speaking about here? He is speaking about the certain Pharisee's and Sadducee's who in His time did not like what He was teaching. There was another man called Stephen, when he told the Pharisee's the truth they did not like to hear, they covered their ears dragged him outside and stoned him to death.

Why does God choose not to address everyone at the same time? Jesus answered this already:

John 14
22 Judas (not Judas Iscariot, but the other disciple with that name) said to him, “Lord, why are you going to reveal yourself only to us and not to the world at large?”

23 Jesus replied, “All who love me will do what I say. My Father will love them, and we will come and make our home with each of them.

Notice that Jesus promises that He and His father will come and make their home with us who love Him. How does He make His home with us? Does He appear and live in the spare room? No He becomes a presence in our heart and mind, that we can then love the Lord with all our heart, soul and strength, as that is the greatest commandment according to Jesus.

A relationship with God means to be observant to your conscience, because God communicates to us by directing our thoughts. I remember when I first converted, there was a really strong "yes/no" chatter going through my mind for the first few weeks. That's the conversion of thinking sinfully to thinking purely. This is what the Holy Spirit does, He puts thoughts in our mind which we either accept or reject. When you read the bible, it stimulates you to listen to the Holy Spirit. If you choose not to listen to the Holy Spirit, you choose to believe a lie instead of the truth. Notice that the bible is not the be-all and end-all of the knowledge of God, it is only the seed which in the right conditions will grow in a person's heart, to have a 24/7 relationship with God.

How does this information line up with what you are hoping to obtain from God? Notice that God's tactics don't incorporate a booming thunderous voice in the sky, instead He uses the conscience and thought to communicate with us. If you keep refusing to listen to what He says when you read the bible, you can blame no-one but yourself. This is God's world, these are His rules. If you want to hear God you will need to listen to what He tells you when you read the bible. Why the bible?

John 5
39 You study[c] the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

There are many deities you can trust. My advice is to only trust Jesus, but of course that's a decision you have to make by yourself.

 

[Ken-1122]

oi antz

(quote) “Ok, it is not my world and I am not God. I don't know why He has chosen not to do it as you think is most sensible,”

(reply) Thank-you. I appreciate your honesty.

(quote) “just a wild guess would be that it would cause some people to believe out of fear, rationality or any other reason that is not necessarily love.”

(reply) Believing is not enough to get you into heaven. Amongst other things you gotta love.

(quote) “If a person doesn't love God, they would not have a good enough reason to be loyal to Him. If God turns His back on someone who doesn't love Him, there might be trouble and we don't want the same kind of trouble in heaven that we have here on earth. Let me know what you think about that.”

(reply) Of what I’ve read from the bible, those who don’t love God will go to hell

K

 

[oi_antz]

Thank-you. I appreciate your honesty.

A pleasure to me.

Believing is not enough to get you into heaven. Amongst other things you gotta love.

Seems to be what Jesus was saying when He spoke to Judas. Why would you not love God though? Only if you didn't love life I guess..

Of what I’ve read from the bible, those who don’t love God will go to hell

Did Jesus say that? Would you quote the scriptures that gave you that impression? I know it says that those whose names are not in the book of life are thrown in the lake of fire, but it doesn't actually say how a person's name is written in the book of life. Jesus said we must be born again, specifically "those who believe and are baptized will be saved, but those who don't believe will be condemned". But you tell me, since the bible is black and white, which verses have taught you this?

 

[docpotter]

I think he means when they asked Jesus what commandment was the most important, He says " Love thy God with all thine heart " , then He said " Love you neighbor as thyself " but he never said or you will go to hell.

I think He was quite clear though when he ( Jesus ) says " no man will get to the Father except by me "

 

[Ken-1122]

A pleasure to me.

Seems to be what Jesus was saying when He spoke to Judas. Why would you not love God though? Only if you didn't love life I guess..

Did Jesus say that? Would you quote the scriptures that gave you that impression? I know it says that those whose names are not in the book of life are thrown in the lake of fire, but it doesn't actually say how a person's name is written in the book of life. Jesus said we must be born again, specifically "those who believe and are baptized will be saved, but those who don't believe will be condemned". But you tell me, since the bible is black and white, which verses have taught you this?

Dcpotter pretty much took the words right out of my mouth. I do realize many Christians will interpret the bible differently, but many will say if you don’t go to Heaven, you gonna go to hell. I don’t know your opinion on this issue, maybe you don’t even believe in hell; but that is the impression I had from the bible when I read it.

K

 

[docpotter]

I believe in hell 100 % . Jesus mentions , or refers to hell more then He does heaven in the gospels .

 

[oi_antz]

Dcpotter pretty much took the words right out of my mouth. I do realize many Christians will interpret the bible differently, but many will say if you don’t go to Heaven, you gonna go to hell. I don’t know your opinion on this issue, maybe you don’t even believe in hell; but that is the impression I had from the bible when I read it.

K

My opinion is not as important as yours, make sure you listen to what your conscience says about it because you only need to answer to Jesus. He is very precise in what He says. For instance He says "anyone who believes and is baptized will be saved, but anyone who doesn't believe will be condemned". He specifically created a caveat for those who believe but aren't baptized. Compare this to what the book of Mormon says "anyone who is not baptized will be damned", there is a distinct difference.

 

[Ken-1122]

My opinion is not as important as yours, make sure you listen to what your conscience says about it because you only need to answer to Jesus. He is very precise in what He says. For instance He says "anyone who believes and is baptized will be saved, but anyone who doesn't believe will be condemned". He specifically created a caveat for those who believe but aren't baptized. Compare this to what the book of Mormon says "anyone who is not baptized will be damned", there is a distinct difference.

Need I remind you who you are talking to? I know sometimes it might be a little easy to forget!

Ken

 

[chilehed]

Fair enough; I did not mean to offend...

Forgotten.

Sorry it took so long to reply, I've been extremely busy. And this is among the most difficult questions that a person can ask. People have been struggling with it since shortly after we came into existence.

God does us a favor by providing just enough evidence of himself that those who are willing to be in a relationship with him can see it, but those who are not willing aren't forced to…

If God were to provide proof of his existence, nobody would be forced to have a relationship with him, they could simply ignore him, or disobey him.

Let’s parse this carefully. You had asked about the question of convincing people that he exists, but now you’ve confounded that with the question of how people respond to that knowledge. They are two entirely separate issues.

You ask “if Christians are correct, then why doesn’t God provide a miracle adequate to demonstrate his existence to everyone?” In order to answer that question coherently, we have to begin with the assumption that Christian theology is correct, because that’s how the question is asked. And one result of that assumption is that the physical sciences alone cannot describe reality in its fullness. To some degree one must embrace elements of mysticism.

The Christian position is that he did provide sufficient proof, and that he still does. I’m Catholic, I’m aware of quite a number of well-documented miracles that have happened in modern times, and since by definition miracles are possible if and only if God exists then a single miracle is sufficient to prove that he does. And yet the universal response of atheists is some variant of “no, there must be some other explanation because miracles aren’t possible”, which begs the question.

Question–begging is not reasonable, so in essence your question would have God do something so overwhelming that even the most unreasonable person, the person who most wants to be able to ignore that he’s real, would have no choice but to recognize it. You’re asking why he doesn’t break through all of the barriers that we ourselves put up in our attempts to not know he’s there.

I’ve got a teenage son, and he’s absolutely sure that he’s got the world figured out. He’s incredibly unreasonable, but he is very attached to his self-image of being in control and being his own arbiter of right and wrong. I could try to make him see that he doesn’t, but the usual result isn’t very good. I’ve found that the best thing to do is to say something like “my son, at your age you can't possibly understand; you just need to trust me” and let him find out in the end that I was right.

He's so transcendent that if he did what you are suggesting we couldn't help making our definitive decision at that instant,…

What decision are you refering to?

I’m referring to the decision about how I’m going to relate to him. Your central question effectively specifies that I can’t ignore him, or not know that he exists.

According to Christian theology (which we’re assuming to be correct) we are made to freely bind ourselves to him in a mutual exchange of love, and because that act must be freely done our nature is such that we can freely decide to reject him. And there’s no way to avoid making the choice one way or the other.

and if he had done it when I wasn't willing to bind myself to him then I'd have hated him with the same character as Satan.

Why wouldn’t you simply ignore him, or disobey him like everyone else who wouldn’t want a relationship with him? Why would you have chosen to hate?

Learning the truth about ourselves often hurts.

I don’t know about you, but when someone tells me that I’m doing something wrong in some unimportant matter, maybe it’s a critique of my technique in a sport or something, there’s a part of me that gets a little irritated. Usually I get over it pretty quickly, especially if the comment’s made by someone who’s obviously ignorant, obviously wrong and completely insignificant to me. But see how that works: my irritation increases if there's more truth to the critique or the person is more significant to me.

What happens when the issue has to do with my relationships with people? That’s closer to the core of what it is to be human; we’re made to be in relationship with other people. And when I have difficulty with my relationships it’s a lot easier for me to see someone else’s defects than it is to see my own. But I’m responsible for my defects, not theirs, and yet when someone shows me how screwed up I am then my first reaction is to get very irritated. And the more significant the relationship is to me and the more serious my defect, the more intense is my initial reaction to reject what I’m hearing and be mad at the person who’s making me hear it. It's become obvious that although I might say that I want to know the truth about myself, in fact that’s not really true because there’s an awful lot in me that’s not likeable.

That’s a little picture of what would happen if God broke in on me in the way you propose. If he showed himself to me with that level of clarity I wouldn’t be merely learning some truths about God; I’d be finding myself in the immediate and intimate presence of Truth itself, Beauty itself, Love itself. In that kind of light I’d also know myself equally clearly - and I’m not ready for that even now, when I want it to happen. Had it happened when I didn’t want it to happen, my response of anger would have been immediate and definitive, just as if it happened today my response of love would (I hope) be immediate and definitive.

That’s about the best explanation I’m capable of for now.

This talk by Peter Kreeft is worth listening to… several times: Peter Kreeft - Till We Have Faces

 

[oi_antz]

Need I remind you who you are talking to? I know sometimes it might be a little easy to forget!

Ken

Yes, please elaborate, I don't understand what you mean.

 

[Ken-1122]

Chilhed
(quote) “You ask “if Christians are correct, then why doesn’t God provide a miracle adequate to demonstrate his existence to everyone?””

(reply) Not quite! I asked why doesn’t your God address the entire world in an audible voice at the same time in a language that each of us can understand to clear up all the misunderstandings we have of him.
Now I don’t know if you would consider this a miracle, but if you do it would be a SPECIFIC miracle; and the purpose is not to prove his existence, it’s purpose is to clear up the misunderstandings that everyone has, so everyone can agree on God; instead of the mess we have now.

(quote) “The Christian position is that he did provide sufficient proof, and that he still does. I’m Catholic, I’m aware of quite a number of well-documented miracles that have happened in modern times, and since by definition miracles are possible if and only if God exists then a single miracle is sufficient to prove that he does”

(reply) But did he perform the specific miracle (if that’s what you want to call it) that I mentioned? No! so you didn’t address my question.
Because you misquoted my original question, you started in the wrong direction and the remainder of your response continues in the wrong direction thus you are answering questions I didn’t even ask; not the question I did ask.

Let’s try again; What’s the worse that can happen if your God addressed the entire world at once in an audible voice, in a language we can each understand to clear up all the misunderstandings we have of him.

(quote) “I’m referring to the decision about how I’m going to relate to him. Your central question effectively specifies that I can’t ignore him, or not know that he exists.

According to Christian theology (which we’re assuming to be correct) we are made to freely bind ourselves to him in a mutual exchange of love, and because that act must be freely done our nature is such that we can freely decide to reject him. And there’s no way to avoid making the choice one way or the other”

(reply) This one you’ve got half right. Yes you will know he exists, but I never said you can’t ignore him. Satan knows God exists right? But does he bind himself to God in a mutual exchange of love? No! he disobeys, and ignores God. Now logic tells you that if Satan is able to know God exist and can still reject, or ignore him, so should you; right?

(quote) “Learning the truth about ourselves often hurts.
I don’t know about you, but when someone tells me that I’m doing something wrong in some unimportant matter, maybe it’s a critique of my technique in a sport or something, there’s a part of me that gets a little irritated. Usually I get over it pretty quickly, especially if the comment’s made by someone who’s obviously ignorant, obviously wrong and completely insignificant to me. But see how that works: my irritation increases if there's more truth to the critique or the person is more significant to me.

What happens when the issue has to do with my relationships with people? That’s closer to the core of what it is to be human; we’re made to be in relationship with other people. And when I have difficulty with my relationships it’s a lot easier for me to see someone else’s defects than it is to see my own. But I’m responsible for my defects, not theirs, and yet when someone shows me how screwed up I am then my first reaction is to get very irritated. And the more significant the relationship is to me and the more serious my defect, the more intense is my initial reaction to reject what I’m hearing and be mad at the person who’s making me hear it. It's become obvious that although I might say that I want to know the truth about myself, in fact that’s not really true because there’s an awful lot in me that’s not likeable.

That’s a little picture of what would happen if God broke in on me in the way you propose. If he showed himself to me with that level of clarity I wouldn’t be merely learning some truths about God; I’d be finding myself in the immediate and intimate presence of Truth itself, Beauty itself, Love itself. In that kind of light I’d also know myself equally clearly - and I’m not ready for that even now, when I want it to happen. Had it happened when I didn’t want it to happen, my response of anger would have been immediate and definitive, just as if it happened today my response of love would (I hope) be immediate and definitive.

That’s about the best explanation I’m capable of for now.”

(reply) thanks for the honest assessment. If I understand you correctly, you seem to be admitting that you are the type of person who when proven wrong; rather than admit to your mistake and change your position, you become irritated and “dig in” so you don’t have to change your mind.

I am not that way; if I were I would still be Christian (no offence intended). When I was Christian and my entire belief system was proven wrong, I admitted to my mistake and changed my position thus becoming an atheist. It didn’t happen over night; I spent years covering every possible scenario leaving no leaf unturned in an effort to hang onto my religious beliefs because so much of my life was invested in Christianity; but eventually I had to be honest with myself and admit I was wrong.
Do you suppose your reluctance to admit when you are wrong is what’s preventing you from admitting you are wrong about God?

Ken

 

[Ken-1122]

Yes, please elaborate, I don't understand what you mean.

I'm one of those guys who has the Icon of a profile with a black brain; I'm an Atheist. Your response was worded as if I actually believed what your Bible says.

K