Why aren't you a missionary?

[Curious Atheist]

Why is it that all true believers aren't ALL missionaries/monks or whatever the term would be for devoting your life 100%.
I don't think I can believe that you can trully dedicate your life to 'spreading the word' or whatever it is God wants you to do whilst still living a 'normal' life. So if you believe the consequences for your actions can lead to an eternity of paradise or of eternal torment it confuses me why you aren't inclined to 'try harder' for lack of a better phrase.
If you literally believe that sinning can lead to hell why don't you try literally everything in your power to avoid this and get in to heaven.

I do not mean being a good person and perhaps doing some charity work, I mean 100% giving everything you have. Having no worldly possessions and following the word of Jesus by feeding others as soon as you would feed yourself. Why aren't you all trying to go to third world countries? The church (certainly in the UK) is one of the wealthiest organisations with billions and billions of pounds in land and buildings. Why don't you sell all these things that can't help you in heaven and help the world, following Gods assumed plan?

I will attempt a quote from the bible to help my point.

Matthew 19:24:

"I'll say it again--it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the Kingdom of God!"

If this is the direct word of God, why is there such a plethora of wealthy Christians? Why for example do the higher members of the church tend to live in luxury? For example the Archbishop of cantebury in the UK literally lives in a palace, in fact I believe he has two palaces within about 50 miles of each other. Or the Pope! It really does seem contrary to the teachings of Christianity.

Most would openly admit to sinning and that 'God will forgive all'. But that isn't really the point, why would you even take a tiny risk?

Thanks

 

[Migdala]

As believers, we are supposed to share the gospel with whoever God puts in our little world....He puts people around us to witness to. He does not call everyone to be oversea missionaries though-many of us are called to just stay where He puts us and witness there.

You are right-many Christians are "lukewarm" and Jesus will spit them out of His mouth. Many are called, and few are chosen, as the Bible says.

Also, many believers try to twist the Bible around and make it say what they want it to say. Like I have a Christian friend who is sleeping with her boyfriend. When I questioned her about it, she said that God does not want us to go without sex. But that is NOT what the Bible says at all-it says to flee sexual sin and that fornicators and adulterers will not enter the Kingdom of God.

Many Christians turn the other cheek when they see a homeless person begging. But Jesus says that whatever we do to the least of these, we are doing to Him.

Like I said-many ignore or twist the Bible to what they want it to say, not what Jesus tells us to do. Those are the ones who cry "Lord, Lord" and Jesus will tell them that He does not know them.

 

[drich0150]

Why is it that all true believers aren't ALL missionaries/monks or whatever the term would be for devoting your life 100%.

What makes you think that we aren't?

I don't think I can believe that you can truly dedicate your life to 'spreading the word' or whatever it is God wants you to do whilst still living a 'normal' life.

So you believe people who have opportunity to live normal lives don't need salvation? What about people like you? what of those trapped in our inner city communities?

So if you believe the consequences for your actions can lead to an eternity of paradise or of eternal torment it confuses me why you aren't inclined to 'try harder' for lack of a better phrase.

If all "tried harder" as you put it, who would pay for these out of country missionary trips? You do know these things cost lots of money right?

If you literally believe that sinning can lead to hell why don't you try literally everything in your power to avoid this and get in to heaven.

Sin is not canceled out by Missionary works or any other type of good deed.

I do not mean being a good person and perhaps doing some charity work, I mean 100% giving everything you have. Having no worldly possessions and following the word of Jesus by feeding others as soon as you would feed yourself.

Again sin is not canceled out by good works. What happens when all your money runs out? Then you become one of the poor that the church is to feed. their is a balance to be struck. we are told that a man who does not care for his family is worse than an unbeliever.

Why aren't you all trying to go to third world countries?

Because not all are called into third world countries. Paul explains it as we all are being different members of the same body. Meaning we might not all have the same function/job/calling, yet all are vital to a healthy body/church.

The church (certainly in the UK) is one of the wealthiest organizations with billions and billions of pounds in land and buildings. Why don't you sell all these things that can't help you in heaven and help the world, following Gods assumed plan?

Indeed

I will attempt a quote from the bible to help my point.

Matthew 19:24:

"I'll say it again--it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the Kingdom of God!"

Your point is well received, but also know that "wealth" is less about the balance in your bank account, and more about the condition of the heart that padded that bottom line.

If this is the direct word of God, why is there such a plethora of wealthy Christians? Why for example do the higher members of the church tend to live in luxury? For example the Archbishop of Canterbury in the UK literally lives in a palace, in fact I believe he has two palaces within about 50 miles of each other. Or the Pope! It really does seem contrary to the teachings of Christianity.

Perhaps we should ask them.

Our charge is to remain faithful to what we have been given. For some that means managing wealth. for other that means studying and answering questions and others, benevolence and missionary work. We are all members of the same body. An eye can not look at the ear and expect it to have the same job or function. because were would the sense of hearing be if the ear was also an eye? So to one member of the body of Christ can not look or judge another for not having the same "job." We all have been given different gifts and talents. This means our service to God will also be different. Here is one example of Paul's words on the same subject.

1 Corinthians 12 NIV - Concerning Spiritual Gifts Now about - Bible Gateway

 

[Curious Atheist]

As believers, we are supposed to share the gospel with whoever God puts in our little world....He puts people around us to witness to. He does not call everyone to be oversea missionaries though-many of us are called to just stay where He puts us and witness there.

You are right-many Christians are "lukewarm" and Jesus will spit them out of His mouth. Many are called, and few are chosen, as the Bible says.

Also, many believers try to twist the Bible around and make it say what they want it to say. Like I have a Christian friend who is sleeping with her boyfriend. When I questioned her about it, she said that God does not want us to go without sex. But that is NOT what the Bible says at all-it says to flee sexual sin and that fornicators and adulterers will not enter the Kingdom of God.

Many Christians turn the other cheek when they see a homeless person begging. But Jesus says that whatever we do to the least of these, we are doing to Him.

Like I said-many ignore or twist the Bible to what they want it to say, not what Jesus tells us to do. Those are the ones who cry "Lord, Lord" and Jesus will tell them that He does not know them.

Thanks for your reply. It might not make much sense coming from an atheist but I find creationism far easier to understand. It's the parts where people have decided what to intepret as literal, what can be a metaphor and what can be ignored altogether that confuses me. It also frustrates me if I am honest but I don't mean to offend.

However, you have reminded me of another thread regarding world hunger. Apparently hunger exists because God has given us enough to go around, but we don't share it properly. I think the majority of us could do more to help the needy. However I have made position clear on this that a loving God wouldn't allow people to suffer just to give purpose to others.

Again though this contradicts other things I have been told. I thought we needed to suffer to get closer to God? So why would God then want us to stop each other suffering without intervening himself. What exactly does God want us to do for each other?

 

[Migdala]

Thanks for your reply. It might not make much sense coming from an atheist but I find creationism far easier to understand. It's the parts where people have decided what to intepret as literal, what can be a metaphor and what can be ignored altogether that confuses me. It also frustrates me if I am honest but I don't mean to offend.

However, you have reminded me of another thread regarding world hunger. Apparently hunger exists because God has given us enough to go around, but we don't share it properly. I think the majority of us could do more to help the needy. However I have made position clear on this that a loving God wouldn't allow people to suffer just to give purpose to others.

Again though this contradicts other things I have been told. I thought we needed to suffer to get closer to God? So why would God then want us to stop each other suffering without intervening himself. What exactly does God want us to do for each other?

God's whole commandments boil down to two things....love God and love others. The whole 10 commandments are fulfilled when we do those things. Without repenting of our sins and believing that Jesus died for us, we cannot do these things on our own-we have to have the help of the Holy Spirit. We have to be led by Him. You sound like you have a very kind heart-I think it is wonderful that you seem to care so much about others!

Our whole life is a test. Every day we are tested. For instance, a Christian can be going out to eat at a nice restaurant, and a man on the side of the road is begging for money to eat. That Christian has a choice-he can ignore the homeless man, assuming he will spend it for beer or drugs-or he can willingly give up his dinner money to him, which is what God would want him to do. God places these "tests" in our paths every single day. He is watching everything we do.

Do unto others. Every day, just think of what you would want done to YOU, and go from there. Be kind, help and love others. Trust in Jesus because He is the ONLY way to Heaven-no kind acts or anything is going to get us there-only by trusting in His salvation-what He has already done for us by dying for our sins. Ask the Lord Jesus to save you and give you the Holy Spirit. Read the Bible and turn from your sins and it will all fall into place. God bless!

 

[Curious Atheist]

Why is it that all true believers aren't ALL missionaries/monks or whatever the term would be for devoting your life 100%.
What makes you think that we aren't?
What an odd thing to say. Are you possibly agreeing there are extremely few ‘true believers’? Or do you genuinely believe you are devoting every moment to God’s plans?
I don't think I can believe that you can truly dedicate your life to 'spreading the word' or whatever it is God wants you to do whilst still living a 'normal' life.
So you believe people who have opportunity to live normal lives don't need salvation? What about people like you? what of those trapped in our inner city communities?
I think we have different interpretations of normal. I don’t mean normal as in a normal standard of living in the West compared to poverty. I mean it isn’t normal to be devoted to only one goal for your whole life and being genuinely selfless. Abnormal in the sense you don’t take anything for yourself and will go hungry to feed a stranger. You would not say Jesus was normal, I suppose I am asking why Christians don’t emulate his way of life or even try and improve on it.
So if you believe the consequences for your actions can lead to an eternity of paradise or of eternal torment it confuses me why you aren't inclined to 'try harder' for lack of a better phrase.
If all "tried harder" as you put it, who would pay for these out of country missionary trips? You do know these things cost lots of money right?
No, like you said (although out of context) in the last quote, you don’t need to spend money. You can help the person next door, not necessarily with anything material either. You could just befriend the homeless and needy to give them comfort in their lives, that is far more generous than giving 10% of your pay cheque in my eyes. Imagine dedicating your life to aiding one disabled person, would you do that?
If you literally believe that sinning can lead to hell why don't you try literally everything in your power to avoid this and get in to heaven.

Sin is not canceled out by Missionary works or any other type of good deed.
I did not imply you would be searching to redeem yourself, merely avoiding sin and following Jesus’ example. You probably will still sin as it seems impossible not to, but certainly you have done more to avoid sin than most and have shown more faith and dedication.
I do not mean being a good person and perhaps doing some charity work, I mean 100% giving everything you have. Having no worldly possessions and following the word of Jesus by feeding others as soon as you would feed yourself.
Again sin is not canceled out by good works. What happens when all your money runs out? Then you become one of the poor that the church is to feed. their is a balance to be struck. we are told that a man who does not care for his family is worse than an unbeliever.
Again, not about being cancelled out. Nor is it anything to do with money. Well it is, but more in the sense of balancing out the wealth/resources/food and avoiding greed to feed the needy like what Jesus taught. You could certainly feed many people if all the Christians even just halved their material possessions and sold all the churches/palaces/land. I think it would raise trillions, enough to turn an entire continent like Africa around. If only enough people practiced what they preached.
Your last comment is also assumes that ‘care’ means wealth. You can care for your family by loving them far more than buying them whatever they want and ignoring their real needs. I don’t understand what is wrong with an ‘unbeliever’ could you please enlighten me?
Why aren't you all trying to go to third world countries?
Because not all are called into third world countries. Paul explains it as we all are being different members of the same body. Meaning we might not all have the same function/job/calling, yet all are vital to a healthy body/church.
Although I have said you can help anyone with no money, it does seem like the third world would be a good place to start. Does Paul mean millions of starving people are vital to the church? It seems like you are just making excuses for your own greed.
The church (certainly in the UK) is one of the wealthiest organizations with billions and billions of pounds in land and buildings. Why don't you sell all these things that can't help you in heaven and help the world, following Gods assumed plan?
Indeed
What does this mean? Do you think it is a good idea?
I will attempt a quote from the bible to help my point.

Matthew 19:24:

"I'll say it again--it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the Kingdom of God!"
Your point is well received, but also know that "wealth" is less about the balance in your bank account, and more about the condition of the heart that padded that bottom line.
If this is the direct word of God, why is there such a plethora of wealthy Christians? Why for example do the higher members of the church tend to live in luxury? For example the Archbishop of Canterbury in the UK literally lives in a palace, in fact I believe he has two palaces within about 50 miles of each other. Or the Pope! It really does seem contrary to the teachings of Christianity.
Perhaps we should ask them.

As members of the same religion I am asking you and the members of this forum for answers. I have many more questions than I thought and the more answers I get the more questions are raised. What is your opinion on owning a palace and preaching the word of Jesus? I think it spits in the face of Jesus to be such a hypocrite!

Our charge is to remain faithful to what we have been given. For some that means managing wealth. for other that means studying and answering questions and others, benevolence and missionary work. We are all members of the same body. An eye can not look at the ear and expect it to have the same job or function. because were would the sense of hearing be if the ear was also an eye? So to one member of the body of Christ can not look or judge another for not having the same "job." We all have been given different gifts and talents. This means our service to God will also be different. Here is one example of Paul's words on the same subject.

1 Corinthians 12 NIV - Concerning Spiritual Gifts Now about - Bible Gateway

Saying ‘Paul’ said something means less than nothing to me I am afraid. But your point seems to be we are all different. Very good. My point is that it is supposed to be a Christians ‘job’ to try and mean the differences don’t leave one man in a palace and another unable to feed his family. What is your justification for going against the words of God, whilst saying you want to get in to heaven? I think you may be one of these ‘luke-warm’ Christians!

 

[Catherineanne]

Why is it that all true believers aren't ALL missionaries/monks or whatever the term would be for devoting your life 100%.

My life belongs to God 100%, as you say, but he has not called me to be a missionary or a religious. He has called me to be who I am, where I am. I know this because whenever I attempt to be anyone else, it doesn't work. So I am here, doing what I can, where I can.

It probably isn't much by anyone else's standards, but this is what God wants from me, and I am happy to give it.

I don't think I can believe that you can trully dedicate your life to 'spreading the word' or whatever it is God wants you to do whilst still living a 'normal' life. So if you believe the consequences for your actions can lead to an eternity of paradise or of eternal torment it confuses me why you aren't inclined to 'try harder' for lack of a better phrase.
If you literally believe that sinning can lead to hell why don't you try literally everything in your power to avoid this and get in to heaven.

It isn't really about avoiding hell, to be honest. Not for me, anyway.

It is more a matter of relationship, and that can be just as meaningful in an ordinary life as in a religious or missionary one. It all depends what God wants from us.

I do not mean being a good person and perhaps doing some charity work, I mean 100% giving everything you have. Having no worldly possessions and following the word of Jesus by feeding others as soon as you would feed yourself. Why aren't you all trying to go to third world countries? The church (certainly in the UK) is one of the wealthiest organisations with billions and billions of pounds in land and buildings. Why don't you sell all these things that can't help you in heaven and help the world, following Gods assumed plan?

There is nothing in this world that can prevent us from entering eternity, because there is nothing more powerful than God's salvation.

It is only if we put our riches before God that they cause problems.

I happen to have a dependent daughter. I don't see it as any part of my Christian duty to sell everything I have and make her and myself homeless. That is not really what Christ wants from me. What he wants is my home and my life to be offered to him, so that it becomes his, rather than mine. In this way anything I then do is through him, and I treat my possessions as if they are held in trust for him, rather than being mine.

You may regard this as splitting hairs, but it is in fact the reality of our journey in Christ. We no longer live, but he lives in us; what was ours becomes his; all of it. At that point he will indeed call some people to sell everything for the sake of the gospel. But he does not call all of us to the same service, or the same life.

I will attempt a quote from the bible to help my point.

Matthew 19:24:

"I'll say it again--it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the Kingdom of God!"

If this is the direct word of God, why is there such a plethora of wealthy Christians? Why for example do the higher members of the church tend to live in luxury? For example the Archbishop of cantebury in the UK literally lives in a palace, in fact I believe he has two palaces within about 50 miles of each other. Or the Pope! It really does seem contrary to the teachings of Christianity.

Most would openly admit to sinning and that 'God will forgive all'. But that isn't really the point, why would you even take a tiny risk?

Thanks

A Christian can be a steward for a lot of money, or for a small amount. It makes no difference. All that matters is that whatever he or she has is used as Christ would have them use it. We are not owners, we are stewards.

In relation to the Archbishop, I am certain he is more than well aware of this fact, and lives accordingly. With great trust comes great responsibility; he would have to be a fool not to know that, and he is no fool.

 

[Catherineanne]

Abnormal in the sense you don’t take anything for yourself and will go hungry to feed a stranger. You would not say Jesus was normal, I suppose I am asking why Christians don’t emulate his way of life or even try and improve on it.

We do. We just don't make a song and dance about it.

I know a priest who gave a kidney to a parishioner who would otherwise have died, because that person had two sons who would have lost their father. You won't see anything about that in the news, but it is true. He is a good friend of mine, who I have known for more than ten years. I could write a book about what he does for those around him.

No, like you said (although out of context) in the last quote, you don’t need to spend money. You can help the person next door, not necessarily with anything material either. You could just befriend the homeless and needy to give them comfort in their lives, that is far more generous than giving 10% of your pay cheque in my eyes. Imagine dedicating your life to aiding one disabled person, would you do that?

What makes you think that people are not doing this? We don't go around talking about it because we are told that acts of mercy done in public are for man's commendation, not God's. God prefers us to keep quiet.

As members of the same religion I am asking you and the members of this forum for answers. I have many more questions than I thought and the more answers I get the more questions are raised. What is your opinion on owning a palace and preaching the word of Jesus? I think it spits in the face of Jesus to be such a hypocrite!

Nice language.

You need to get one thing clear. Just because you personally do not know what thousands upon thousands of everyday Christians are doing in their own lives, you cannot conclude that they are hypocrites. That is a complete non sequitur.

We answer to God, not to you, and it is he who sees what we do, and what we omit to do.

Christians fast, Christians pray. Do you know when they are fasting, or how often they pray? Generally, no. This is because we are told to fast in secret, and to pray in secret. We are told to not let the right hand know what the left hand is doing. This applies to a whole range of Christian behaviours. We come together to worship God, but we then live lives in accordance to his will, and very often do not brag about what we have done.

The whole world knows how often Moslems pray, and how they fast during Ramadan. In Christian terms, this means they are doing it for man's approval, not God's; because they have had their reward on earth there is no need for them to expect anything further in eternity. God approves the devotion given to him alone, and the act of charity seen by him alone.

And, in Christian terms, that is just as it should be.

 

[drich0150]

What an odd thing to say. Are you possibly agreeing there are extremely few ‘true believers’? Or do you genuinely believe you are devoting every moment to God’s plans?

I am saying that not all who you have judged as falling short in their service to God, are in fact guilty of falling short. A great number are faithful to what they have been given.

I think we have different interpretations of normal. I don’t mean normal as in a normal standard of living in the West compared to poverty. I mean it isn’t normal to be devoted to only one goal for your whole life and being genuinely selfless. Abnormal in the sense you don’t take anything for yourself and will go hungry to feed a stranger. You would not say Jesus was normal, I suppose I am asking why Christians don’t emulate his way of life or even try and improve on it.

So if we can not heal or feed 5000 from 3 loaves and 2 fish we are falling short? How can we improve on that?

No, like you said (although out of context) in the last quote, you don’t need to spend money. You can help the person next door, not necessarily with anything material either. You could just befriend the homeless and needy to give them comfort in their lives, that is far more generous than giving 10% of your pay cheque in my eyes. Imagine dedicating your life to aiding one disabled person, would you do that?

How do you know that I have not?

Sin is not canceled out by Missionary works or any other type of good deed.
I did not imply you would be searching to redeem yourself, merely avoiding sin and following Jesus’ example. You probably will still sin as it seems impossible not to, but certainly you have done more to avoid sin than most and have shown more faith and dedication.

One sin, any sin, is worthy of Hell. Our best efforts in conjunction with Christ's atonement are what is required. This may look like what you have described for some, for others it may be more, it may be less. This is what is judged. Not your legalistic idea of a works based righteousness.

Again, not about being canceled out. Nor is it anything to do with money. Well it is, but more in the sense of balancing out the wealth/resources/food and avoiding greed to feed the needy like what Jesus taught. You could certainly feed many people if all the Christians even just halved their material possessions and sold all the churches/palaces/land.

Who are you speaking of? I don't know anyone who could take 1/2 of their take home and still live in today's economy. Again if "we" did this their would be a momentary peak in prosperity in the church and then with greater numbers in need (all who sold their stuff) the church would fall back to where they were and with no further donations it would be much worse off than it is now.

I think it would raise trillions, enough to turn an entire continent like Africa around. If only enough people practiced what they preached.

If you give a man a fish you feed him for a day... what happens when the money runs out, and this Continent's worth of people can fish for themselves?

Your last comment is also assumes that ‘care’ means wealth. You can care for your family by loving them far more than buying them whatever they want and ignoring their real needs. I don’t understand what is wrong with an ‘unbeliever’ could you please enlighten me?

Enlightenment starts by acknowledging that not every situation begins and ends with how you chose to portray it. It takes an honest look and then an assessment can be made.

Although I have said you can help anyone with no money, it does seem like the third world would be a good place to start. Does Paul mean millions of starving people are vital to the church? It seems like you are just making excuses for your own greed.

How so? by reconciling the whole of scripture against your perception of it?

What does this mean? Do you think it is a good idea?

yes.

As members of the same religion I am asking you and the members of this forum for answers.

I am not nor have I ever been a member of the church of england, or any other church like that. So again I can not speak for them.

I have many more questions than I thought and the more answers I get the more questions are raised. What is your opinion on owning a palace and preaching the word of Jesus? I think it spits in the face of Jesus to be such a hypocrite!

One man's palace is another's hovel. You look to judge a man by his external possessions. What Christ says about this you do not seem to agree with. Christ tells us not to judge lest we too can be judged in the way we have chosen to judge another. I can point out several places where you have already failed.

This is a matter of the heart. I am not in a position to judge another man's heart.(Neither are you)

Saying ‘Paul’ said something means less than nothing to me I am afraid.

Thankfully we are not exploring your beliefs, and if we are exploring Christianity then we must look at the whole of scripture, and not just the parts that justify your prejudices.

But your point seems to be we are all different. Very good. My point is that it is supposed to be a Christians ‘job’ to try and mean the differences don’t leave one man in a palace and another unable to feed his family.

Actually this is what Christianity look like to you. Which is not biblically consistent. Christianity is a "group effort" and not one person's responsibility to recreate Christ's ministry alone.

What is your justification for going against the words of God, whilst saying you want to get in to heaven? I think you may be one of these ‘Luke-warm’ Christians!

Again thankfully we/I will not be judge by one who thinks he can make an accurate judgment with little to no information.

 

[Curious Atheist]

We do. We just don't make a song and dance about it.

I know a priest who gave a kidney to a parishioner who would otherwise have died, because that person had two sons who would have lost their father. You won't see anything about that in the news, but it is true. He is a good friend of mine, who I have known for more than ten years. I could write a book about what he does for those around him.



What makes you think that people are not doing this? We don't go around talking about it because we are told that acts of mercy done in public are for man's commendation, not God's. God prefers us to keep quiet.



Nice language.

You need to get one thing clear. Just because you personally do not know what thousands upon thousands of everyday Christians are doing in their own lives, you cannot conclude that they are hypocrites. That is a complete non sequitur.

We answer to God, not to you, and it is he who sees what we do, and what we omit to do.

Christians fast, Christians pray. Do you know when they are fasting, or how often they pray? Generally, no. This is because we are told to fast in secret, and to pray in secret. We are told to not let the right hand know what the left hand is doing. This applies to a whole range of Christian behaviours. We come together to worship God, but we then live lives in accordance to his will, and very often do not brag about what we have done.

The whole world knows how often Moslems pray, and how they fast during Ramadan. In Christian terms, this means they are doing it for man's approval, not God's; because they have had their reward on earth there is no need for them to expect anything further in eternity. God approves the devotion given to him alone, and the act of charity seen by him alone.

And, in Christian terms, that is just as it should be.

I don't mean to imply I know what everyone does. But are you really suggesting that even the majority of those who say they believe in God REALLY try to copy Jesus every second of their lives?

I agree that most people like to tell the world how much they have anonymously donated. True altruism is exceptionally rare, almost unheard of. But what you are refering to are only small acts that we all do. I am not saying Christians don't help when they can, I mean dedicating your entire life the way a buddhist monk does. You have literally no life outside of trying to serve God, NOTHING.

(ps, I love the irony of giving a list of good things Christians do without ever telling anyone!)

 

[Curious Atheist]

[FONT=&quot]So if we can not heal or feed 5000 from 3 loaves and 2 fish we are falling short? How can we improve on that?[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
I get the impression you don’t want to answer the question. Although I agree, feeding 5000 people from 3 loves and 2 fish is ridiculous and impossible![/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]No, like you said (although out of context) in the last quote, you don’t need to spend money. You can help the person next door, not necessarily with anything material either. You could just befriend the homeless and needy to give them comfort in their lives, that is far more generous than giving 10% of your pay cheque in my eyes. Imagine dedicating your life to aiding one disabled person, would you do that?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]How do you know that I have not?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]You have not, I know this on faith. But clearly that isn’t a real argument is it, nor is it important what you yourself do. I was asking about your religion, which you don’t seem to want to answer any questions about. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]One sin, any sin, is worthy of Hell. Our best efforts in conjunction with Christ's atonement are what is required. This may look like what you have described for some, for others it may be more, it may be less. This is what is judged. Not your legalistic idea of a works based righteousness.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]If you can honestly say you have never spent a moment being selfish, relaxing, watching tv, going on forums or whatever you like to do apart from dedicating yourself to helping the less fortunate then you are a better man than I. Well done. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]If one sin could send me to hell I would do anything to avoid it, but I don’t believe in hell so I don’t. It seems many must unknowingly follow my sentiment, such as yourself?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Who are you speaking of? I don't know anyone who could take 1/2 of their take home and still live in today's economy. Again if "we" did this their would be a momentary peak in prosperity in the church and then with greater numbers in need (all who sold their stuff) the church would fall back to where they were and with no further donations it would be much worse off than it is now.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]This reply just shows how out of touch you are with what Jesus was actually preaching. Yet again, I am not just talking about money!! Oh forget it, I don’t have the patience to answer this properly.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]If you give a man a fish you feed him for a day... what happens when the money runs out, and this Continent's worth of people can fish for themselves?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]If you give a man a fish you feed him for a day, if you give a man religion he will starve to death whilst praying for a fish! To put it simply for you. Why don’t you and 100,000 of your Christian chums go to Africa and teach them how to [/FONT][FONT=&quot]farm/fish? See, not always just about money is it.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]One man's palace is another's hovel. You look to judge a man by his external possessions. What Christ says about this you do not seem to agree with. Christ tells us not to judge lest we too can be judged in the way we have chosen to judge another. I can point out several places where you have already failed.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Trust me, no-one would call his home a hovel. I think you may judged me yourself, ironic?[/FONT]

 

[solarwave]

Why is it that all true believers aren't ALL missionaries/monks or whatever the term would be for devoting your life 100%.

One problem could be that if no one had a 'normal' job for a living it might be hard to stay alive. Those you work solely for the church are paid for by the average person and so making it all possible.

I don't think I can believe that you can trully dedicate your life to 'spreading the word' or whatever it is God wants you to do whilst still living a 'normal' life.

I do think that the way many Christians live their lives, including myself, is far from ideal.

So if you believe the consequences for your actions can lead to an eternity of paradise or of eternal torment it confuses me why you aren't inclined to 'try harder' for lack of a better phrase.
If you literally believe that sinning can lead to hell why don't you try literally everything in your power to avoid this and get in to heaven.

Well many Christians believe in salvation by grace, not by works. This means that you don't go to heaven by doing more good than bad in life. There is hope for all, even the most vilest offender. This doesn't mean that we shouldn't try to be good. To think that grace is a license to sin is to totally misunderstand the whole thing.

I do not mean being a good person and perhaps doing some charity work, I mean 100% giving everything you have. Having no worldly possessions and following the word of Jesus by feeding others as soon as you would feed yourself. Why aren't you all trying to go to third world countries? The church (certainly in the UK) is one of the wealthiest organisations with billions and billions of pounds in land and buildings. Why don't you sell all these things that can't help you in heaven and help the world, following Gods assumed plan?

Change might be necessary in this regard.

Thanks for your reply. It might not make much sense coming from an atheist but I find creationism far easier to understand. It's the parts where people have decided what to intepret as literal, what can be a metaphor and what can be ignored altogether that confuses me. It also frustrates me if I am honest but I don't mean to offend.

Slightly off topic, but the world isn't so simplistic as how you suggest someone should understand the Bible, as I'm sure you know.

 

[meinabox]

As believers, we are supposed to share the gospel with whoever God puts in our little world....He puts people around us to witness to. He does not call everyone to be oversea missionaries though-many of us are called to just stay where He puts us and witness there.

+

Brothers and sisters, I could not address you as people who live by the Spirit but as people who are still worldly—mere infants in Christ. 2 I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. 3 You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere humans? 4 For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not mere human beings?"

1 cor 3

 

[meinabox]

back up for what Migdala said:

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day."
John 6:44

 

[nubs]

As believers, we are supposed to share the gospel with whoever God puts in our little world....He puts people around us to witness to. He does not call everyone to be oversea missionaries though-many of us are called to just stay where He puts us and witness there.

You are right-many Christians are "lukewarm" and Jesus will spit them out of His mouth. Many are called, and few are chosen, as the Bible says.

Also, many believers try to twist the Bible around and make it say what they want it to say. Like I have a Christian friend who is sleeping with her boyfriend. When I questioned her about it, she said that God does not want us to go without sex. But that is NOT what the Bible says at all-it says to flee sexual sin and that fornicators and adulterers will not enter the Kingdom of God.

Many Christians turn the other cheek when they see a homeless person begging. But Jesus says that whatever we do to the least of these, we are doing to Him.

Like I said-many ignore or twist the Bible to what they want it to say, not what Jesus tells us to do. Those are the ones who cry "Lord, Lord" and Jesus will tell them that He does not know them.

How do you know it's not YOU who is twisting the Bible around to keep to the beliefs that you've been taught?

Correct me if I am wrong but I do not remember Jesus saying sex before marriage in any of the gospels as being wrong. Sexual fornication to you or sins involved with sex are not explicitly spelled out in the Bible. It could be interpretted as rape or making people do sexual acts without their consent (well... rape).

Also what was YOUR purpose in questioning your friend about her private life? How does it affect you?

 

[Catherineanne]

I don't mean to imply I know what everyone does. But are you really suggesting that even the majority of those who say they believe in God REALLY try to copy Jesus every second of their lives?

It is not my job to stand in judgement of my brothers and sisters, but as far as I am concerned they are all far in advance of me in every way, and I follow behind as best I can.

Christians are not better than anyone else; quite the opposite.

I agree that most people like to tell the world how much they have anonymously donated. True altruism is exceptionally rare, almost unheard of. But what you are refering to are only small acts that we all do. I am not saying Christians don't help when they can, I mean dedicating your entire life the way a buddhist monk does. You have literally no life outside of trying to serve God, NOTHING.

I have no life outside serving God. Everything is his, without exception. Even if I am sitting watching X Factor, I am still his. And why not?

I serve God in serving my daughter, my friends and family, my church, accepting my cross and doing the best I can to find his will and follow it. He does not demand that I throw away my telly, but if he did, I would do so.

And, in answer to your next question, which might well be how do I know he doesn't want me to throw away my telly, I would check with my priest if I got any such idea, and see what he thinks. If he agrees that it is the right thing to do, then I would. If he said, don't be so daft, then I wouldn't. I suspect he would say the latter, as he rather likes watching telly himself.

(ps, I love the irony of giving a list of good things Christians do without ever telling anyone!)

True enough, but it wasn't ironic. I didn't say how much, or what exactly is involved. And anything I happen to have done is not listed. If you want a list, I will let you have it in PM, but I won't broadcast it.

But in all that I have done, small as it is, I only begin to repay God's goodness. I never actually get into credit, because he has blessed me very greatly, one way or another.

 

[Catherineanne]

[FONT=&quot]Why don’t you and 100,000 of your Christian chums go to Africa and teach them how to [/FONT][FONT=&quot]farm/fish? See, not always just about money is it.[/FONT]

If we are called to go to Africa, then we go to Africa.

I am not sure what purpose would be served by every Christian outside Africa deciding to go there, to be honest. Can you imagine the chaos?

 

[drich0150]

[FONT=&quot]

[FONT=&quot]I get the impression you don’t want to answer the question. Although I agree, feeding 5000 people from 3 loves and 2 fish is ridiculous and impossible![/FONT]

I am just trying to define the parameters of your question. How can I expected to give an answer to something I do not fully understand.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]

[FONT=&quot]You have not, I know this on faith. [/FONT]

Then your faith has failed you.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]

[FONT=&quot]But clearly that isn’t a real argument is it, nor is it important what you yourself do. [/FONT]

Then why challenge my works to begin with?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]

[FONT=&quot]I was asking about your religion, which you don’t seem to want to answer any questions about. [/FONT]

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]You haven't asked any questions of my religion. However you have told me what it is you think I believe, and then challenge my apparent beliefs. When I respond to you with my actual beliefs (as in the writings of Paul) you quickly dismiss them. In short we are talking about what you believe christianity is. Which is a far sight from how I have experienced it. It appears your "faith" has failed you again.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]If you can honestly say you have never spent a moment being selfish, relaxing, watching tv, going on forums or whatever you like to do apart from dedicating yourself to helping the less fortunate then you are a better man than I. Well done. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]What makes you think time spent dedicated to one's self is time spent apart from God? Do you not know of all of the Time Christ took for Himself?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]

[FONT=&quot]If one sin could send me to hell I would do anything to avoid it, but I don’t believe in hell so I don’t. It seems many must unknowingly follow my sentiment, such as yourself?[/FONT]

Not sure what you are asking.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]

[FONT=&quot]This reply just shows how out of touch you are with what Jesus was actually preaching. Yet again, I am not just talking about money!! Oh forget it, I don’t have the patience to answer this properly.[/FONT]

If you would indulge me.. Or at least show me the same respect I have shown you by taking the time to answer every question I have line by line.
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]

[FONT=&quot]If you give a man a fish you feed him for a day, if you give a man religion he will starve to death whilst praying for a fish! To put it simply for you. Why don’t you and 100,000 of your Christian chums go to Africa and teach them how to [/FONT][FONT=&quot]farm/fish? See, not always just about money is it.[/FONT]

It would cost millions to send 100,000 people to Africa to work and re-educate the population, not to mention the millions in supplies and support staff to make an effort like this possible. [/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]

[FONT=&quot]Trust me, no-one would call his home a hovel. I think you may judged me yourself, ironic?[/FONT]

Again here is another example of you telling me of my faith.
Bottom line if you believe that you should sell all you have and give it away then do so. Just know this will not automatically buy you a spot any closer to God.

What you do is not measured by the gain you can provide the church or even the poor. Look at the little old lady who gave two midas in comparison to the rich Pharisee. Her gift was counted as a gain because it was a complete gift given of her heart. His much greater gift was counted as a loss because he gave in accordance of his own greatness.
What you seemed to be obsessed with is measuring what others give or don't give from the heart. It is best to measure yourself and let God measure the rest.

[/FONT]

 

[bling]

[FONT=&quot]If you can honestly say you have never spent a moment being selfish, relaxing, watching tv, going on forums or whatever you like to do apart from dedicating yourself to helping the less fortunate then you are a better man than I. Well done. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]?[/FONT]

Unfortunately you are not living in China and talking about the underground Christian Church that has grown from almost being wiped out 50 years ago by persecution to 60 to 100 million strong (we do not have a good number).

Yes in the West people that call themselves Christians are not like Christ and thus should not be called “Christians”.

 

[Catherineanne]

Yes in the West people that call themselves Christians are not like Christ and thus should not be called “Christians”.

I am afraid that is just humbug.

Christianity is a journey of faith, and each of us is at a different stage of that journey. There are no exams in being like Christ to pass in order to qualify, for the simple reason that each of us is being transformed by the Holy Spirit in a different way, suited to our own particular life. It is simply silly to suggest that the only valid Christians are those who are persecuted for their faith. Living in an affluent, secular country presents just as much of a challenge to a devout believer as living in a Communist state. Loss of faith is easy in either one.

None of us can judge any other person's faith, or decide what they ought to call themselves as a result.