What’s the worst that can happen?

[Ken-1122]

@ Ken's post # 93, the last question: None of us can fathom all of it. Consider a diamond; just one facet can reflect the same light in seemingly endless ways, depending on your POV. G-d is like that, but we are talking about a "diamond" with literally infinite facets ...

Yeah but the problem is; only one can be right! Because they contridict each other, the rest must be wrong

K

 

[Ken-1122]

Obviously God has decided that it doesn't need to be better than what we have now. Have you considered why He might make that decision? If God is good which He says He is, then there must be a good reason for it. What do you think that [good] reason could be?

I find it amazing that people can look at the same instruction manual on how to put something together, and they will come to the same conclusion of what needs to be done; yet those same people will look at a Bible (or what-ever holy book) that is supposed to be written by a perfect God and everybody who reads it will come to a different conclusion what needs to be done, and nobody finds this suspecious.

My personal opinion is that God does not exist; if he did he would be able to write an instruction manual (bible or what-ever) that is just as easy to understand as the ones us flawed and imperfect humans write, and there would be a consistency of what God wants and you wouldn't have the religious bigotry, hatred, and divisions you have today.

Ken

 

[Ken-1122]

Alright, alright, there's no need to be defensive over it.
I take back anything that was wrong, but I won't take anything back that was relevant to the discussion.



Given time, I'm sure down the track this would be debunked or declared as something else. For an example: Jesus preformed miracles, now 2000 years later we have the 'Jesus myth', declaring he never existed to begin with.

Now, the question is, when God speaks, is it external or internal?
Though God is capable of both, speaking externally is the exception, not the rule. In Christianity, God has chosen to speak to the masses through the bible as according to scripture:

Isaiah 55:11
2 Timothy 3:16 - 17



To be honest, I think it would bring about even more confusion. If God were to speak audibly, what should he say? What would you want him to say? Every individual has their own questions and their own doubts that needs to be addressed. A written word has more of a chance of successfully achieving that purpose. I don't have a problem with God declaring himself audibly, but Christians have to respect why he does or doesn't. After you hear him, next you would want to see him, after you see him, he must prove himself by remaining seen, to prove his divinity he must preform more and more extravagant miracles to satisfy etc. Though a simple request, God then becomes a servant rather than a master. God has already demonstrated his humility through Christ. Faith in his word (for the Christian) cuts right through these expectations.

Or as C.S Lewis put it:
I gave in, and admitted that God was God.

I should of explained this right from the first post...

If God spoke and did what was necessary to clear up the confusion, I am sure there would be people who would want him to do more, even to the extent that you discribed! but that doesn't mean he would have to do it! One act does not require another.

K

 

[Matariki]

Why can't God give us miracles today so we'd know He exists? - YouTube

 

[razeontherock]

Yeah but the problem is; only one can be right! Because they contridict each other, the rest must be wrong

K

Sorry, I didn't see this before. Look back at my post and see why, no, one does NOT have to be right and the rest wrong. There is no such condition. (Which does not mean that every position is correct)

 

[razeontherock]

I find it amazing that people can look at the same instruction manual on how to put something together, and they will come to the same conclusion of what needs to be done; yet those same people will look at a Bible (or what-ever holy book) that is supposed to be written by a perfect God and everybody who reads it will come to a different conclusion what needs to be done,

Yes, that is amazing! Different people need to do different things, and G-d co-ordinates it all.

 

[oi_antz]

I find it amazing that people can look at the same instruction manual on how to put something together, and they will come to the same conclusion of what needs to be done; yet those same people will look at a Bible (or what-ever holy book) that is supposed to be written by a perfect God and everybody who reads it will come to a different conclusion what needs to be done, and nobody finds this suspecious.

My personal opinion is that God does not exist; if he did he would be able to write an instruction manual (bible or what-ever) that is just as easy to understand as the ones us flawed and imperfect humans write, and there would be a consistency of what God wants and you wouldn't have the religious bigotry, hatred, and divisions you have today.

Ken

Don't you think though that "bigotry, hatred and divisions" are the result of someone failing to apply a part of that handbook? Do you not know that the handbook teaches us the opposite behavior? Your behavior counts too, why is it that you demonstrate bigotry hatred and division while I don't?

 

[Ken-1122]

Why can't God give us miracles today so we'd know He exists? - YouTube

This video appears to be a bunch of Christians doing what we used to call “preaching to the choir”. There is sooo much that is wrong with this video, I don’t know where to start.
The man asked why doesn’t God perform miracles today as he did yesterday and the response he got was “because he doesn’t have to” then he listed a bunch of ridicules claims such as; anybody with an open mind and an open heart will see the evidence that his god left for us; which implies that only Christians are open minded, that everyone else is closed minded; even those who live in an area where they aren’t exposed to his brand of God.
Or he mentioned that God’s evidence is sufficient for those with an open mind, but it is sufficiently vague so it doesn’t compel those with a closed mind; neglecting to mention that the majority of those who seek God find a different God than his own. And when did vague instructions become a good thing for something as important as God? (assuming he actually existed)
I found the video offensive.

Ken

 

[Ken-1122]

Sorry, I didn't see this before. Look back at my post and see why, no, one does NOT have to be right and the rest wrong. There is no such condition. (Which does not mean that every position is correct)

I looked back at your reply about the various rays of the Diamond. The problem with your analogy is you can’t compare a diamond to religious belief because the various rays of a diamond is what makes it beautiful; otherwise it would be just another rock!
With so many religions you have each of them claiming to be right, and the rest wrong! Obviously they can’t all be right, I believe they are all wrong

[FONT='Calibri','sans-serif']K[/FONT]

 

[Ken-1122]

Yes, that is amazing! Different people need to do different things, and G-d co-ordinates it all.

If God is co-ordinating it all, why do the majority of God believers worship a different God? Does God want mankind to worship someone else other than himself?

K

 

[Ken-1122]

Oi antz
(quote) “Don't you think though that "bigotry, hatred and divisions" are the result of someone failing to apply a part of that handbook?”

(reply) I think the bigotry, hatred and divisions are the result of someone picking and choosing specific parts of the bible that confirm their bigotry & hatred, and neglecting to mention the parts that condemn it.

(quote) “Do you not know that the handbook teaches us the opposite behavior?”

(reply) Oh really! Like “Thou shall not steal” (but then you have Luke 19:29-35)
Or “Thou shall not kill” (but then you have Numbers 31:17-18)
Seems to me some of the behavior permitted in this hand book is even worse!

(quote) “Your behavior counts too, why is it that you demonstrate bigotry hatred and division while I don't?”

(reply) Seriously?? Are you really pointing a finger at me? What have I said that was bigoted and hateful?

Ken

 

[oi_antz]

Oi antz
(quote) “Don't you think though that "bigotry, hatred and divisions" are the result of someone failing to apply a part of that handbook?”

(reply) I think the bigotry, hatred and divisions are the result of someone picking and choosing specific parts of the bible that confirm their bigotry & hatred, and neglecting to mention the parts that condemn it.

So it is cherry picking and contortion. Are you admitting that these people are not teaching what Christ teaches? Their message is different to Jesus' message so it is not actually true Christianity that you are describing it is a type of false Christianity with evil motives and evil teaching. When will you decide to look at the true Christianity which is Jesus' teaching? Or are you just going to cry over spilled milk?

(quote) “Do you not know that the handbook teaches us the opposite behavior?”

(reply) Oh really! Like “Thou shall not steal” (but then you have Luke 19:29-35)

They weren't stealing the donkey they were using it with the master's permission. Do you think it wasn't returned in good condition? If this is how you think then it is no wonder you can't see the message behind the bible. Like the Pharisee's in Jesus' day.

Or “Thou shall not kill” (but then you have Numbers 31:17-18)

God commands everyone not to kill, in Numbers He is giving a specific commandment to a specific group of people. There is no way that Numbers 31 can be read and interpreted to mean that we should go out and kill people. There is no other way to read commandment 6 but that we shall not murder. Are you so sure that you don't want to ask Jesus for help? You seem really confused about what the bible says.

(quote) “Your behavior counts too, why is it that you demonstrate bigotry hatred and division while I don't?”

(reply) Seriously?? Are you really pointing a finger at me? What have I said that was bigoted and hateful?

Ken

You are hateful toward Christianity because of the bad behavior of those who claim to be Christian but do not follow Christ. You then go on to say that Christianity is divided when in fact it is only your incapacity to see the unity which causes you to see division, and your hatred is manifested every time you speak, such as what you said in this last comment.
"
Seems to me some of the behavior permitted in this hand book is even worse!
"
You need to understand that there are real sheep that really do belong to Jesus, and there are wolves who wear sheep's clothing. The reason why? This is why:

18 “Now listen to the explanation of the parable about the farmer planting seeds: 19 The seed that fell on the footpath represents those who hear the message about the Kingdom and don’t understand it. Then the evil one comes and snatches away the seed that was planted in their hearts. 20 The seed on the rocky soil represents those who hear the message and immediately receive it with joy. 21 But since they don’t have deep roots, they don’t last long. They fall away as soon as they have problems or are persecuted for believing God’s word. 22 The seed that fell among the thorns represents those who hear God’s word, but all too quickly the message is crowded out by the worries of this life and the lure of wealth, so no fruit is produced. 23 The seed that fell on good soil represents those who truly hear and understand God’s word and produce a harvest of thirty, sixty, or even a hundred times as much as had been planted!”

Notice that some have no interest in the truth about God, any time the seed falls upon their heart it never grows. There are some who grow exceedingly fast but they can't withstand persecution. There are some who, like Esau, sell their inheritance to reap the rewards of this life, but there are a few who nurture the seed patiently, allowing it to grow strong and blossom into a tree that produces fruit in those all around it.

It would be fair to Jesus and good for you if you would recognize which type of tree you are observing in the people you call "Christian".

 

[oi_antz]

If God is co-ordinating it all, why do the majority of God believers worship a different God? Does God want mankind to worship someone else other than himself?

K

Again here you are looking for division instead of unity. When Jesus comes it will not matter which religion a person belongs to, those who love Him will be drafted to Him and those who hate Him will be drafted away. This is a biblical truth, spoken by Jesus in Matthew 25. His exact words are this:

“But when the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit upon his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered in his presence, and he will separate the people as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep at his right hand and the goats at his left.

 

[Ken-1122]

oi antz
(quote) “So it is cherry picking and contortion. Are you admitting that these people are not teaching what Christ teaches?”

(reply) I believe good people will use parts the bible to justify their good behavior, and bad people can use parts of the bible to justify their bad behavior. Even Hitler one of the most evil men in history claimed in his book Mein Kemp that he believes he was doing the lords work by defending himself against the Jews. Obviously there are a limitless amount of good people using the bible to justify their good behavior.

(quote) “Their message is different to Jesus' message so it is not actually true Christianity that you are describing it is a type of false Christianity with evil motives and evil teaching. When will you decide to look at the true Christianity which is Jesus' teaching? Or are you just going to cry over spilled milk?”

(reply) Actually Christianity consists Jesus (God of the New Testament) and the God of the Old Testament. I’ve always considered the teachings of Jesus as being morally superior to the God of the Old Testament. Most of my moral complaints in the bible has to do with the God of the Old Testament; not Jesus. Now if Christians were willing to dismiss the God of the Old Testament and only deal with the New Testament and Jesus, then that would be different; but that's not the case, they want to hang on to the Old as well.


(quote) “They weren't stealing the donkey they were using it with the master's permission. Do you think it wasn't returned in good condition? If this is how you think then it is no wonder you can't see the message behind the bible. Like the Pharisee's in Jesus' day.”

(reply) Luke 19:29-35 is an example of Jesus instructing his disciples to take a colt that did not belong to any of them. I call that stealing; you can call it whatever you want.

(quote) “God commands everyone not to kill, in Numbers He is giving a specific commandment to a specific group of people.”

(reply) What about Saul? What about Joshua? There are plenty of examples of God giving a specific commandment to kill a specific group of people. Did the 6th commandment say thou shall not kill unless it is a specific group of people? Or did it say thou shall not kill.

(quote) “You then go on to say that Christianity is divided when in fact it is only your incapacity to see the unity which causes you to see division,”

(reply) So… the various denominations in Christianity are not divisions? Then what do you call them?

(quote) “When Jesus comes it will not matter which religion a person belongs to, those who love Him will be drafted to Him and those who hate Him will be drafted away.”

(reply) What about the Muslims who love him, but don’t see him as the Son of God, they don’t believe he was crucified and risen from the dead, they see him as a prophet of Allah? Will they be drafted with him as well? What about those who never even heard of Jesus or the God described in the Bible? If God is co-ordaining it all, why such a conflicting message?

Ken

PS Again; what did I say that was hateful and bigoted?

 

[oi_antz]

I believe good people will use parts the bible to justify their good behavior, and bad people can use parts of the bible to justify their bad behavior. Even Hitler one of the most evil men in history claimed in his book Mein Kemp that he believes he was doing the lords work by defending himself against the Jews. Obviously there are a limitless amount of good people using the bible to justify their good behavior.

Yes that is true, but being a good Christian doesn't mean only acknowledging the parts of the bible we like, but it means understanding the parts of the bible that challenge us. This is too hard for evil Christians, who rather than love their neighbor as much as they love themselves, prefer to preach hate in order to justify themselves. It is not humility. The bible teaches humility and love. If you don't accept and practice that then you are not a fit example of a good Christian. Are you one of those atheist's Ken who pretends not to know the difference between a good and bad Christian?

Actually Christianity consists Jesus (God of the New Testament) and the God of the Old Testament.

Excuse me for interrupting but God has not changed, He's still just as upset about those who worship false gods as He has ever been. Only difference now is that the kingdom of God belongs to Christians, who for the better majority of cases, are more realistic in their application of God's will than the Pharisee's were in Jesus' time.

I’ve always considered the teachings of Jesus as being morally superior to the God of the Old Testament. Most of my moral complaints in the bible has to do with the God of the Old Testament; not Jesus. Now if Christians were willing to dismiss the God of the Old Testament and only deal with the New Testament and Jesus, then that would be different; but that's not the case, they want to hang on to the Old as well.

What can I say about that? We can't just pick and choose when it comes to God otherwise it would be a lie. Jesus is God's son, He always gave glory to "the Father". This is the same God who approached Moses, redeemed Israel from Egypt and led them into Canaan. This is the same God who Jesus believed had impregnated His mother.

Luke 19:29-35 is an example of Jesus instructing his disciples to take a colt that did not belong to any of them. I call that stealing; you can call it whatever you want.

We don't know Jesus' relationship to the owner of the colt, but Jesus did. It's nothing short of bigotry to accuse Jesus of being a thief when you don't know anything about it. If anyone could have called Him a thief it would have been the owner of the colt but that didn't happen did it?

What about Saul? What about Joshua? There are plenty of examples of God giving a specific commandment to kill a specific group of people. Did the 6th commandment say thou shall not kill unless it is a specific group of people? Or did it say thou shall not kill.

It says you shall not murder. Murder is defined as unlawful killing. Therefore when the law permits then killing is not murder. Since the Canaanites were causing the Israelites to sin, God declared that they must be destroyed. God's people are supposed to be holy. I am out of my depth here, I don't know anything about the nature of the cultures that God hated, I have been told that some of them practiced child sacrifice, it is not a topic I have researched I just think that God knew what was good for His people, and it meant abolishing idolaters.

So… the various denominations in Christianity are not divisions? Then what do you call them?

Some churches have been formed by dividing themselves from other churches, but you find that Christians don't really know why they belong to one church or another, they just feel more comfortable there. Birds of a feather will flock together. Speaking of denominational divisions, yes it is true that someone once decided not to agree, so in those cases someone is clearly at fault. Paul warns us a lot about being divided, I could fish up those verses if you are interested. For your information I can walk into any church that belongs to Jesus Christ and listen to their message, and generally not find fault with what they say. There are obviously other churches though which are all about squeezing the tithes out of the congregation. Most Christians in those congregations are in bliss because they are overcome with the joy of fellowship.

What about the Muslims who love him, but don’t see him as the Son of God, they don’t believe he was crucified and risen from the dead, they see him as a prophet of Allah? Will they be drafted with him as well? What about those who never even heard of Jesus or the God described in the Bible? If God is co-ordaining it all, why such a conflicting message?

I don't know. I keep saying to people who ask me this that Jesus is the one who sits on the throne, He is the one who separates the wheat from the chaff, none of us have any right to finger-point and say "you will burn in hell". All we can really do is listen to each other, identify where growth is required, and as Jesus said to Peter, "feed His sheep".

PS Again; what did I say that was hateful and bigoted?

Everything you are saying is bigoted, and hateful. How could you possibly tell me that Jesus stole a donkey? The man who owned it should have been honored to know it was used in the procession of worship.

 

[razeontherock]

The problem with your analogy is you can’t compare a diamond to religious belief because the various rays of a diamond is what makes it beautiful

This is exactly the way G-d is. Why else do you think He reveals Himself that way? Even the same facet will show different colors from just a slightly different POV!

Now compare that to humans, each with our own unique background, perceiving something that's not even visible to begin with. The same principle certainly applies! Instead of seeing minor differences of opinion as falsifying everything, realize the bigger picture here. And that no one arrives at Truth by being spoon-fed, but by seeking it on your own. Others can help us, but that is limited.

 

[razeontherock]

I think the bigotry, hatred and divisions are the result of someone picking and choosing specific parts of the bible that confirm their bigotry & hatred, and neglecting to mention the parts that condemn it.

Oh really! Like “Thou shall not steal” (but then you have Luke 19:29-35)

That is not stealing. Jesus also used someone else's room to have His last meal in, when he instituted the first Communion. Are you going to have to object to that too, calling it "stealing?" What do you display here, if not bigotry and hatred? The person who owned the room consented to it's use, as did the person who owned the donkey; otherwise the story would have played out differently. The owners of these things counted it an honor, yet you feel the need to turn it into a negative. What does that tell you?

[ETA: there is much to say on the topic of the OT, but please exercise the humility to realize it is too much for you to tackle just yet. One step at a time)

 

[Ken-1122]

Ori anz
(quote) “We don't know Jesus' relationship to the owner of the colt, but Jesus did. It's nothing short of bigotry to accuse Jesus of being a thief when you don't know anything about it. If anyone could have called Him a thief it would have been the owner of the colt but that didn't happen did it?”

(reply) If Jesus knew the person with the colt I think the bible would have mentioned it. Now if you want to speculate that he knew the person because it makes the situation look better? Go ahead, that’s fine but that’s not the point; the point is, a person who does bad can find plenty in the bible to justify their bad behavior. History has proven this time and time again.

(quote) “It says you shall not murder. Murder is defined as unlawful killing. Therefore when the law permits then killing is not murder. Since the Canaanites were causing the Israelites to sin, God declared that they must be destroyed. God's people are supposed to be holy. I am out of my depth here, I don't know anything about the nature of the cultures that God hated, I have been told that some of them practiced child sacrifice, it is not a topic I have researched I just think that God knew what was good for His people, and it meant abolishing idolaters.”

(reply) Actually “murder” is defined as a killing of the innocent. Under your definition, because Hitler, Stalin, and Amin were the law their particular land, the atrocities they committed couldn’t be considered murder because the killings were perfectly legal under their laws.
Again this was just another example of how an evil person can find something in the bible to justify their behavior. I mean, if a person is convinced that what Moses did to the Midinites or what Saul did to the Amelikites was perfectly fine because their God okayed it, how much of a leap would it take for that person to go along with a Hitler if this Hitler claims he is doing the lords work by defending himself against the Jews? (as Hitler claimed)

(quote) “Everything you are saying is bigoted, and hateful. How could you possibly tell me that Jesus stole a donkey? The man who owned it should have been honored to know it was used in the procession of worship.”

(reply)”You know, you can call me a bigot, hateful, or what-ever insult you can think of; your words don’t hurt me. I’m just calling it like it is my friend!

Razontherock
(quote) “This is exactly the way G-d is. Why else do you think He reveals Himself that way? Even the same facet will show different colors from just a slightly different POV!

Now compare that to humans, each with our own unique background, perceiving something that's not even visible to begin with. The same principle certainly applies! Instead of seeing minor differences of opinion as falsifying everything, realize the bigger picture here. And that no one arrives at Truth by being spoon-fed, but by seeking it on your own. Others can help us, but that is limited.”

(reply) Aren’t you aware of how many people have been harmed, and even killed over this? How can you call this a good thing? Look at the history of our country alone! Slavery was justified as a means of converting the Africans to Christianity; you look at how the native Americans were treated once forced upon the reservations how they were often assaulted when they attempted to preserve their native religion, there are accounts in Africa when some of the people were brainwashed into Islam, they no longer considered themselves to be black or African, they are now Muslim and they would go out and kill their own sisters and brothers who did not convert! There are so many examples of people hurting each other in the name of religion; how can you call the plethora of different God beliefs that exists a good thing?

(quote) “That is not stealing. Jesus also used someone else's room to have His last meal in, when he instituted the first Communion. Are you going to have to object to that too, calling it "stealing?" What do you display here, if not bigotry and hatred? The person who owned the room consented to it's use, as did the person who owned the donkey; otherwise the story would have played out differently. The owners of these things counted it an honor, yet you feel the need to turn it into a negative. What does that tell you?”

(reply)You know; Luke 19:29-35 says nothing about the owner of the colt counting it as an honor or consenting to its use, that’s just speculation on your part, or just something you made up; which is fine! I wouldn’t expect anything less from you because that’s your job. As a Christian it is your job to defend Christianity at all costs and I wouldn’t expect anything less from you; but as I told “Ori anz” the point I was trying to make was there are plenty of examples in the bible that an evil person can use to justify their bad behavior.

(quote) “[ETA: there is much to say on the topic of the OT, but please exercise the humility to realize it is too much for you to tackle just yet. One step at a time


(reply) No thank you! I know the difference between basic right and wrong; and when I see something that is wrong I will NOT look the other way or bury my head in the sand and assume it is beyond my knowledge, I will call it wrong if I believe it is wrong; and there is much in the Old Testament that I believe is wrong.

There is an old saying; “Men of war will worship a God of war, and men of peace will worship a God of peace.” I believe a problem develops when men of war write some of the books of the Old Testament and the God they concocted is a God of war, Then years later men of peace want to believe the concoction written by the men of war and deep down they have moral reservations about the actions of this God they are required to believe is good.

Anyway, if you want to use my little narrative as an excuse to call me bigoted, hateful or whatever other insult you can think of, as I told the last guy, Go ahead, your insults don’t hurt me; I’m just calling it as I see it my friend

Ken

 

[oi_antz]

If Jesus knew the person with the colt I think the bible would have mentioned it. Now if you want to speculate that he knew the person because it makes the situation look better? Go ahead, that’s fine but that’s not the point; the point is, a person who does bad can find plenty in the bible to justify their bad behavior. History has proven this time and time again.

Is that what made you say Jesus is a thief? I thought you were serious actually.

Actually “murder” is defined as a killing of the innocent. Under your definition, because Hitler, Stalin, and Amin were the law their particular land, the atrocities they committed couldn’t be considered murder because the killings were perfectly legal under their laws.

Again this was just another example of how an evil person can find something in the bible to justify their behavior. I mean, if a person is convinced that what Moses did to the Midinites or what Saul did to the Amelikites was perfectly fine because their God okayed it, how much of a leap would it take for that person to go along with a Hitler if this Hitler claims he is doing the lords work by defending himself against the Jews? (as Hitler claimed)

Ok no problem. I remember this verse:

14 Remind everyone about these things, and command them in God’s presence to stop fighting over words. Such arguments are useless, and they can ruin those who hear them.

You will have to think for yourself at some stage, I think this is a good time for it.

You know, you can call me a bigot, hateful, or what-ever insult you can think of; your words don’t hurt me. I’m just calling it like it is my friend!

Come on now, you threw the first stone. I am merely demonstrating the hypocrisy of your statement. Jesus tells us not to judge each other because the same measurement we use to judge will be measured unto us. It is wise advice, don't you agree?

 

[chilehed]

What’s the worst that can happen if God were to address the entire world at once, in an audible voice; in a language that each of us can understand to clear up all the misunderstandings we humans have of him?
Why doesn’t he do it?

Ken

God does us a favor by providing just enough evidence of himself that those who are willing to be in a relationship with him can see it, but those who are not willing aren't forced to.

We have our entire lives to make a definitive decision about how we wish to relate to him, and that decision is made permanent upon our deaths. Until then we can always change our minds, and I'm very glad that I didn't die before I decided to adhere to him.

He's so transcendent that if he did what you are suggesting we couldn't help making our definitive decision at that instant, and if he had done it when I wasn't willing to bind myself to him then I'd have hated him with the same character as Satan.