How can omniscience and free will co-exist?

[Chris72]

How do you feel a god could have a plan for you if you also believe you have free will? When any number of free-will decisions could have happened to prevent you from even existing?

If your mother and your father had had free will, they could have made the decision to not begin dating each other. The day before your mother met your father, she could have made a free will to decision to begin dating someone else. Same goes for your father. Your mother could have made a free will decision to have an abortion when she was pregnant with you, is this not true? Your parents could have decided not to have intercourse the day they conceived you (sorry, but this is an adult conversation), or could have done it a month earlier, in which case it would have been a different egg and a different sperm (again, an adult conversation), and therefore you would have been composed of a completely different genetic make-up (you could have been the opposite gender, etc.).

When your mother was a child, a stranger (any of an infinite number of them) could have made a free will decision to drive recklessly, run a red light and end up killing her with his/her car as she crossed the street. In fact, in pretty much any day in the lives of your either of your parents up until the day you were born, a countless number of free will decisions could have been made by a countless number of people that would have resulted in you never being born.

The same goes for your four grandparents. For example, your grandfather could have made a different decision one day during WW II, stepped on a landmine, and never would have made it home to father your mom or dad. The same goes for your great-grandparents, and their parents, all the way back down the line through countless generations.

So if you believe that such a god has a plan for you, and you also believe that we have free will, then such a god would have to be keeping his fingers crossed that everyone makes the appropriate decisions countless numbers of times every single day for thousands and thousands of years! Because otherwise, you would not even be here.

 

[drich0150]

How do you feel a god could have a plan for you if you also believe you have free will? When any number of free-will decisions could have happened to prevent you from even existing?

If your mother and your father had had free will, they could have made the decision to not begin dating each other. The day before your mother met your father, she could have made a free will to decision to begin dating someone else. Same goes for your father. Your mother could have made a free will decision to have an abortion when she was pregnant with you, is this not true? Your parents could have decided not to have intercourse the day they conceived you (sorry, but this is an adult conversation), or could have done it a month earlier, in which case it would have been a different egg and a different sperm (again, an adult conversation), and therefore you would have been composed of a completely different genetic make-up (you could have been the opposite gender, etc.).

When your mother was a child, a stranger (any of an infinite number of them) could have made a free will decision to drive recklessly, run a red light and end up killing her with his/her car as she crossed the street. In fact, in pretty much any day in the lives of your either of your parents up until the day you were born, a countless number of free will decisions could have been made by a countless number of people that would have resulted in you never being born.

The same goes for your four grandparents. For example, your grandfather could have made a different decision one day during WW II, stepped on a landmine, and never would have made it home to father your mom or dad. The same goes for your great-grandparents, and their parents, all the way back down the line through countless generations.

So if you believe that such a god has a plan for you, and you also believe that we have free will, then such a god would have to be keeping his fingers crossed that everyone makes the appropriate decisions countless numbers of times every single day for thousands and thousands of years! Because otherwise, you would not even be here.

The answer to your question is quite simple. Biblically based "free will" does not equate to freedom of Choice, as your scenario would seem to suggest.

Here are the actual biblically based definitions of the following words:

Sin, is anything not in the expressed will of God.

Evil, is a malicious intent to be out side of the Expressed will of God.

Not all sin is Evil, but all evil is sin.

Free Will is the ability to be in a will not expressed or approved by God.

In other words "Free will" is the ability to Sin.

God can have a plan for us and we still can have the ability to sin.

 

[Chris72]

The answer to your question is quite simple. Biblically based "free will" does not equate to freedom of Choice, as your scenario would seem to suggest.

Here are the actual biblically based definitions of the following words:

Sin, is anything not in the expressed will of God.

Evil, is a malicious intent to be out side of the Expressed will of God.

Not all sin is Evil, but all evil is sin.

Free Will is the ability to be in a will not expressed or approved by God.

In other words "Free will" is the ability to Sin.

God can have a plan for us and we still can have the ability to sin.

So, are the decisions you make on a daily basis (the non-evil ones) yours to make or not? When I decided to walk to the store and get coffee this morning instead of just making it myself, was that a decision I made through free will or did the god you believe in make it for me? When I chose the job I am in currently over other offers, was that my decision through free will or not? If my mother hadnt decided to change branches in her current job, she would have been on one of the hijacked 9/11 flights, so dont tell me such a decision is inconsequential.

 

[drich0150]

So, are the decisions you make on a daily basis (the non-evil ones) yours to make or not?

I think it would be safe to say that most non sin related issues are our to make.

When I decided to walk to the store and get coffee this morning instead of just making it myself, was that a decision I made through free will or did the god you believe in make it for me?

If God wanted to micro manage your life He would not have to hide behind the idea that you made this decision for yourself.

When I chose the job I am in currently over other offers, was that my decision through free will or not?

No this decision had nothing to do with free will as the bible describes it unless it had something to do with greed or pride or some other sin. This decision and others like it are a matter of simple freedom of choice.

If my mother hadn't decided to change branches in her current job, she would have been on one of the hijacked 9/11 flights, so dint tell me such a decision is inconsequential.

you misunderstand. Free will as the bible describes it has nothing to do with freedom of choice. Even freedom of choice is limited by our bondage to sin.

So to answer the question you ask. Yes we have free will.

No, we do not have complete autonomous freedom of choice, as we are slaves to sin. This means sin will always take precedence in our lives even over what we want to do. If you believe this not to be true then "choose" not to sin and see how long you last.

 

[Chris72]

I think it would be safe to say that most non sin related issues are our to make.

If God wanted to micro manage your life He would not have to hide behind the idea that you made this decision for yourself.


No this decision had nothing to do with free will as the bible describes it unless it had something to do with greed or pride or some other sin. This decision and others like it are a matter of simple freedom of choice.


you misunderstand. Free will as the bible describes it has nothing to do with freedom of choice. Even freedom of choice is limited by our bondage to sin.

So to answer the question you ask. Yes we have free will.

No, we do not have complete autonomous freedom of choice, as we are slaves to sin. This means sin will always take precedence in our lives even over what we want to do. If you believe this not to be true then "choose" not to sin and see how long you last.

So, again, how could free will and omniscience exist? Please re-read through my original post. Any one of countless non-sin free will decisions could have made during any day by pretty much any person throughout the lives of either of your parents, or any of your ancestors, that would have resulted in you not ever being born. So how could there have been a plan for you.

For example, I dont know how your folks met but my parents met at a party during college when my mom was visiting a friend of hers. If my dad had decided to go to a movie that night, I never would have been born. This is just one example. The point is simple. Omniscience and free will cant co-exist. they are mutually exclusive.

 

[rturner76]

Are you talking about pre-destination? Not all Christians believe in pre-destination. There are Christians that believe that every decision has already been made by God and we are just living it out. My personal belief is that confuses free will however a Christian that believes in pre-destination has an explanation for that which is satisfactory for them They're theology is based on Calvinism. Calvin was a Theologian during the reformation who preached that only the elect are saved etc. and that the elect would also through God's will make all the choices needed to achieve salvation (being baptized, going to church etc.).

Personally, I'm not a Calvinist, I believe that the price for our sins have already been paid and when you have faith in that, you're salvation is completed.

As an atheist, I would look at it like we are a bunch of sea monkeys, you dump them in the water, they dance around in there for a little while then they die off. They're just an algae or bacteria or something. A scientist who has studied sea monkeys, knows they're behavior and life cycle so the scientist can predict what will happen when the package is poured in the water.

You can comprehend this concept if you try hard enough. You would have to believe there is a being with the ability to know every move everyone is going to make before they make it and all the outcomes. Way too much for a human to comprehend. It would take a being with the ability to create a universe out of nothingness to do such a thing which you have established you do not believe in. So you have pretty much asked a question for which you would never accept the answer

 

[rturner76]

Now if you believe in God, they can coexist. Just because you know what will happen does not mean you take an active role in changing people's decisions. You just have foreknowledge of all the outcomes no matter what they do.

 

[drich0150]

So, again, how could free will and omniscience exist? Please re-read through my original post.

I could ask you to do the same. Because as the bible identifies "Free Will" It is just the ability to sin and nothing more. We can indeed have the ability to sin, while God maintaining the ability to know of it.

Any one of countless non-sin free will decisions could have made during any day by pretty much any person throughout the lives of either of your parents, or any of your ancestors, that would have resulted in you not ever being born. So how could there have been a plan for you.

Again God's plan is not a destiny. God's plan is to provide all who want to spend an eternity with Him the ability to do so.

For example, I dont know how your folks met but my parents met at a party during college when my mom was visiting a friend of hers. If my dad had decided to go to a movie that night, I never would have been born. This is just one example. The point is simple. Omniscience and free will cant co-exist. they are mutually exclusive

Only if you will not yield to the scriptural interpretation of free will, or if you do not understand the plan of God as outlined by the bible.

 

[Chris72]

Are you talking about pre-destination? Not all Christians believe in pre-destination. There are Christians that believe that every decision has already been made by God and we are just living it out. My personal belief is that confuses free will however a Christian that believes in pre-destination has an explanation for that which is satisfactory for them They're theology is based on Calvinism. Calvin was a Theologian during the reformation who preached that only the elect are saved etc. and that the elect would also through God's will make all the choices needed to achieve salvation (being baptized, going to church etc.).

I'm talking about how one cannot have the free will to make decisions if there is a god who is omniscient. It's that simple. I am not saying I believe it, I am saying it is impossible. I dont believe that such a god exists, much less that he is omniscient and gives us free will at the same time. I am pointing out the impossibility in this line of reasoning.

As an atheist, I would look at it like we are a bunch of sea monkeys, you dump them in the water, they dance around in there for a little while then they die off. They're just an algae or bacteria or something. A scientist who has studied sea monkeys, knows they're behavior and life cycle so the scientist can predict what will happen when the package is poured in the water.

No, actually that's not what an atheist thinks at all. I am not going to dignify that by calling it an oversimplification. I dont know how you go from my not believing the bible is a true story to sea monkeys dumped in water. Please.

You can comprehend this concept if you try hard enough. You would have to believe there is a being with the ability to know every move everyone is going to make before they make it and all the outcomes. Way too much for a human to comprehend. It would take a being with the ability to create a universe out of nothingness to do such a thing which you have established you do not believe in. So you have pretty much asked a question for which you would never accept the answer

So, therefore, no free will. If a being knows the moves you are going to make you dont really have the free will to do otherwise.

 

[Chris72]

Now if you believe in God, they can coexist. Just because you know what will happen does not mean you take an active role in changing people's decisions. You just have foreknowledge of all the outcomes no matter what they do.

If you have foreknowledge of the outcomes, the decisions arent being made through free will. Again, the two concepts are mutually exclusive.

 

[Chris72]

I could ask you to do the same.

How could you ask me the same? I dont believe in an omniscient god at all. I dont have any explaining to do with regards to such a logical impossibility.

Because as the bible identifies "Free Will" It is just the ability to sin and nothing more. We can indeed have the ability to sin, while God maintaining the ability to know of it.

Again God's plan is not a destiny. God's plan is to provide all who want to spend an eternity with Him the ability to do so.

So, again, go back through my previous posts. Any of a countless number of free will decisions made by any of a countless number of people at any day of the lives of any of your ancestors would have resulted in you never being born. I am not talking about how the bible defines sin or free will. I am saying that an omniscient god can not exist if there is free will.

 

[rturner76]

I'll try to simplify for you again, maybe you can understand......If take notice of say some people playing basketball on a hot day, they stop playing and line up in front of the water fountain. You know they are going to get a drink right? Did you cause them to get a drink? no. So it is proven, having foreknowledge of an event does not mean you control the outcome. So can you say how that does not prove you can know a future event but not control it?

 

[drich0150]

How could you ask me the same? I dont believe in an omniscient god at all. I dont have any explaining to do with regards to such a logical impossibility.

I am simply asking you to go back and re read my post, because I have explained in great detail how God can exist in the presents of "Free Will."

So, again, go back through my previous posts. Any of a countless number of free will decisions made by any of a countless number of people at any day of the lives of any of your ancestors would have resulted in you never being born. I am not talking about how the bible defines sin or free will. I am saying that an omniscient god can not exist if there is free will.

Are you Speaking of the God of the bible or not? If you are, then this conversation will be defined by the bible in which describes the God you are inquiring about.

Otherwise please tell me where the logic is in challenging a known well defined quantity (God) with an interpretive variable? (Your specific definition of "free will.")

If you want an honest answer concerning the God of the bible then it is to the bible we must adapt our definitions. This includes your definition of free will.

That is why I relabeled your understanding of the term as freedom of choice. And I agree we do not or can not have complete freedom of choice.

 

[Chris72]

I'll try to simplify for you again, maybe you can understand......If take notice of say some people playing basketball on a hot day, they stop playing and line up in front of the water fountain. You know they are going to get a drink right? Did you cause them to get a drink? no. So it is proven, having foreknowledge of an event does not mean you control the outcome. So can you say how that does not prove you can know a future event but not control it?

Because no "plan" of mine rides on whether such people get a drink or not and what they do after that? Much less to such detail that any ONE of literally millions of such decisions made by literally billions of different people on literally a daily basis for literally tens of thousands of years could offset my "plan" such that a person I have a "plan" for would never even exist.

Your example oversimplifies the question. I dont claim to be omniscient, nor a creator, nor omnipotent, etc. My knowing that thirsty people are going to grab a drink of water is not analagous to what I am talking about.

 

[Chris72]

I am simply asking you to go back and re read my post, because I have explained in great detail how God can exist in the presents of "Free Will."

I have read your posts. They are not answering the question. I am asking how omniscience and free will can co-exist. Not what the difference is between sinful choices and free will.

Again, any of a near infinite number of non-sinful free will decisions made by a near infinite number of people would have led to you never being born. How could there possibly be a plan for you if your existence may never have come about? So again, omniscience and free will cannot co-exist. Re-framing into a biblical definition of sin is not an answer.

Are you Speaking of the God of the bible or not? If you are, then this conversation will be defined by the bible in which describes the God you are inquiring about.

Otherwise please tell me where the logic is in challenging a known well defined quantity (God) with an interpretive variable? (Your specific definition of "free will.")

If you want an honest answer concerning the God of the bible then it is to the bible we must adapt our definitions. This includes your definition of free will.

That is why I relabeled your understanding of the term as freedom of choice. And I agree we do not or can not have complete freedom of choice.

Yes I am talking about the god of the bible. We can talk of other gods if you want, the same logic applies to any omniscient deity. But if you agree we cannot have freedom of choice with an omniscient god, you agree that we would have no choices whatsoever if such a god were to exist. Because ANY decision could throw off his "plan".

 

[drich0150]

I have read your posts. They are not answering the question. I am asking how omniscience and free will can co-exist. Not what the difference is between sinful choices and free will.

Maybe you missed the part where i told you several times that the bible DEFINES "FREE WILL AS THE ABLITY TO SIN." Free will is NOT freedom of choice.

Again, any of a near infinite number of non-sinful free will decisions made by a near infinite number of people would have led to you never being born. How could there possibly be a plan for you if your existence may never have come about?

Because the PLAN Includes your ability to sin. The Plan is to Allow you and everyone else the ability to Choose whether or not to Spend an eternity with God or an eternity absences from His presences. Also know His plan has NOTHING to do with how much Freedom of Choice you enjoy.

So again, omniscience and free will cannot co-exist. Re-framing into a biblical definition of sin is not an answer.

It is apparent that you do not understand the question you are asking.

Yes I am talking about the god of the bible. We can talk of other gods if you want, the same logic applies to any omniscient deity. But if you agree we cannot have freedom of choice with an omniscient god, you agree that we would have no choices whatsoever if such a god were to exist. Because ANY decision could throw off his "plan"

Only if you believe "His Plan" to be some sort of destiny. (Which is not consistent with scripture.)

 

[Chris72]

Maybe you missed the part where i told you several times that the bible DEFINES "FREE WILL AS THE ABLITY TO SIN." Free will is NOT freedom of choice.


Because the PLAN Includes your ability to sin. The Plan is to Allow you and everyone else the ability to Choose whether or not to Spend an eternity with God or an eternity absences from His presences. Also know His plan has NOTHING to do with how much Freedom of Choice you enjoy.


It is apparent that you do not understand the question you are asking.

Only if you believe "His Plan" to be some sort of destiny. (Which is not consistent with scripture.)

I fully understand the question I am asking. You seem to be going way out of your way to evade it.

If you have "freedom of choice", there can be no "plan" for you. Because you probably wouldnt even exist. It would only be through an uncountable number of "freedom of choice" decisions going exactly right, that you would even be born. You still havent addressed this, so I am going to assume you dont have an answer to it.

Free will (or freedom of choice, whatever you want to call it) cannot co-exist with omniscience. If you are like me and dont believe in such a god, you dont have this problem.

 

[drich0150]

I fully understand the question I am asking. You seem to be going way out of your way to evade it.

If you have "freedom of choice", there can be no "plan" for you.

In like my second post I clearly stated that complete Freedom of Choice is an illusion. You are a slave to sin. as such you will never be able to choose not to sin. Therefore true "freedom of Choice" is an illusion.

Because you probably wouldnt even exist. It would only be through an uncountable number of "freedom of choice" decisions going exactly right, that you would even be born. You still havent addressed this, so I am going to assume you dont have an answer to it.

There is no answer because you are arguing a basic ancient Greek philosophy against a biblical precept. One that does not lend itself to this philosophy unless you ignore 2 key elements of Christan doctrine. These two element can not be ignored. Because you continue to do so even after repeated attempts to explain them to you. i can only assume that you can not or will not accept the complexity of your question.

Free will (or freedom of choice, whatever you want to call it) cannot co-exist with omniscience. If you are like me and dont believe in such a god, you dont have this problem.

Or if you are like me and understand the biblical definition of "Free Will' their is not a problem to be had.

 

[elopez]

How do you feel a god could have a plan for you if you also believe you have free will? When any number of free-will decisions could have happened to prevent you from even existing?

The answer really depends on what we mean by God's plan. If that means God has planned everything out in my life then yeah I suppose there would be no free will. I don't see that as the case though as omniscience, specifically foreknowledge, does not entail direct causation and so the future God has foreseen is what we have chosen to do.

If God does not force human behavior as a result of knowing it we act of our own will and how we choose to act, hence free will. In that sense free will is balanced with omniscience (foreknowledge).

 

[solarwave]

How do you feel a god could have a plan for you if you also believe you have free will? When any number of free-will decisions could have happened to prevent you from even existing?

I think we are using the word plan differently. If I say God has a plan for me I mean that God knows what it is best for me to do. I don't mean that God caused me to be born. God is omniscient and so knows I would be born. So I agree that God didn't plan me to exist and then hope it worked out.