• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Why I Reject Evolution

Aug 18, 2011
139
6
✟15,327.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Achilles wrote:



Yep, I agree. Thanks for pointing out how those don't work for you. They don't work for me for the same reasons you stated.





But aren't the natural laws of God the very epitome of rationality? If anything, it seems to me that the evolutionary process is as rational as it gets. How are the natural, rational laws more irrational than the idea that God poofed everything into existance willy-nilly (for instance making "day" and "night" before making the sun, making insect eating birds without first making insects, and so on, as described in Genesis if taken literally), in contradiction to all the rational evidence we see, from dozens of different scientific fields?





So you are saying that taking Genesis literally (including a literal flood story where God kills millions of innocent animals and infants by drowning, and punishes people's kids because some their Ancestors ate fruit that God put within their reach and knew they would eat), gives a less evil deity than a God that creates through evolution?

Papias

The topic is God's creative process, not His dealings with evil after His creative process. Evil was an advent of mankind's disobedience. Evolution reverses this, and requires evil to be an advent of God which was introduced before it was even to exist Biblically. Double falsehood

One of several indications how evolutionary theory is incompatible with the Bible, despite how many insist it is.
 
Upvote 0
Aug 18, 2011
139
6
✟15,327.00
Faith
Pentecostal
I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying here. I'm saying that only a demented, evil god would create the world initially through death, disease, pain, suffering, etc. This is what the god of evolution has to do, because evolution requires all of these things - and millions of years of them....

Therefore, the present state of this world is against God's will. It is not the way this world was created, and it is not the way that God wanted this world to be. God sent Jesus Christ into the world to deliver the human race from "this present evil world" - in other words, to deliver them from all suffering, pain, death, etc.

However, a god who deliberately creates through all of these things, and, yes indeed, wishes things to be this way, is an extremely evil god. Not to mention that evolution in and of itself is an irrational way for the Creator of the universe to create. So I have rejected both atheistic evolution and theistic evolution as impossible.

More than enough to put theistic evolution in the coffin, permanently
 
Upvote 0
S

solarwave

Guest
More than enough to put theistic evolution in the coffin, permanently

I think if you are going to argue that evolution is incompatible with Christianity and that it makes God evil then Christianity will fall into the coffin as it attempts to throw away theistic evolution.

The poster you quote is simply using the problem of evil to try to prove that theistic evolution didn't happen. Would you not disagree if an atheist tried to use the problem of evil against your beliefs? Just as reconciling the existence of God and suffering take some mental gymnastics do you not think that the same could be said of reconciling God and evolution?
 
Upvote 0
Aug 18, 2011
139
6
✟15,327.00
Faith
Pentecostal
I think if you are going to argue that evolution is incompatible with Christianity and that it makes God evil then Christianity will fall into the coffin as it attempts to throw away theistic evolution.

The poster you quote is simply using the problem of evil to try to prove that theistic evolution didn't happen. Would you not disagree if an atheist tried to use the problem of evil against your beliefs? Just as reconciling the existence of God and suffering take some mental gymnastics do you not think that the same could be said of reconciling God and evolution?

Not that it didn't happen, but it couldn't happen. Meaning that is not how it happened. Significant difference. God created, and proclaimed all to be good. Yet, conisdering all the realities dictated by evolutionary theory, if God truly chose that path for His creative process and proclaimed it to be good, He is not only evil, but demented. God forbid such conclusions. You are misapplying the problem of evil, possibly because you do not properly understand it? It is a human reality
 
Upvote 0

SkyWriting

The Librarian
Site Supporter
Jan 10, 2010
37,281
8,501
Milwaukee
✟411,038.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
The very best evidence against evolution...If Adam wasn't a real person...
If evolution is true, then the Scriptures are not. It is a simple choice. Make yours.
God bless you all.
In Christ, Ted

You need to be more specific Ted. The mechanism for change in DNA and the ability of a species to adapt to it's environment in a few years time is documented.

You object to the application of true science into the fantasy world of human origins. Science does not belong in the past and has no application there. Scientific History does not exist. Everyone should be objecting with you, but most don't.
 
Upvote 0

SkyWriting

The Librarian
Site Supporter
Jan 10, 2010
37,281
8,501
Milwaukee
✟411,038.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I think if you are going to argue that evolution is incompatible with Christianity and that it makes God evil then Christianity will fall into the coffin as it attempts to throw away theistic evolution.

The scriptures are clear that God created life relatively fast. There is no room for a slow and random process powered by mutation rates. If there were even one "bone" in the scriptures that acknowledged randomness or death as a mechanism for sustaining or expanding life.
But everything written suggest otherwise. Evolution is a mechanism for surviving with sin and death in our world. Like all natural disasters, they are not part of God's intended life for us, but are a coping mechanism for a fallen world.
 
Upvote 0
Jul 4, 2011
518
22
✟23,294.00
Faith
Catholic
Why do parents decide to have a child even though they know that that child will probably suffer, get sick, probably end up hating them, be broke, die after getting high on drugs, become gay, not have kids, kill one of them, put both inside a house for senile people etc etc etc?

cos they wanted to. That's free will. The kid can just swallow up and man up and stop going nerd! Or be a sissy-[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]

God wanted to make this world. Why? Cos otherwise NO ONE would pray and worship him.

If a man and a woman married don't have a kid NO ONE will call them pop-mom!

That's it...

Does he care about suffering? Not the same way we do. We want him to get rid of suffering here and now he instead is not here and now but beyond time and space. Hence 2 totally different ways of seeing things.
 
Upvote 0
S

solarwave

Guest
Not that it didn't happen, but it couldn't happen. Meaning that is not how it happened. Significant difference. God created, and proclaimed all to be good. Yet, conisdering all the realities dictated by evolutionary theory, if God truly chose that path for His creative process and proclaimed it to be good, He is not only evil, but demented. God forbid such conclusions. You are misapplying the problem of evil, possibly because you do not properly understand it? It is a human reality

But even when God said his creation in Genesis was good He didn't mean it was perfect. We know this because God said it was good then very good. There aren't degrees of perfection.

The scriptures are clear that God created life relatively fast. There is no room for a slow and random process powered by mutation rates. If there were even one "bone" in the scriptures that acknowledged randomness or death as a mechanism for sustaining or expanding life.
But everything written suggest otherwise. Evolution is a mechanism for surviving with sin and death in our world. Like all natural disasters, they are not part of God's intended life for us, but are a coping mechanism for a fallen world.

They are clear that life was created quickly if you take the story to be be literal history. If you take a more subtle way of understanding the Bible then it all makes sense.
 
Upvote 0

SkyWriting

The Librarian
Site Supporter
Jan 10, 2010
37,281
8,501
Milwaukee
✟411,038.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
They are clear that life was created quickly if you take the story to be be literal history. If you take a more subtle way of understanding the Bible then it all makes sense.

I'm not sure what "all makes sense" means. Every interpretation brings up new difficulties. If you mean "all makes sense to me" well, that doesn't put you in any unique position. Most people live in that world. And most without medication.
 
Upvote 0

One_In_Christ

Newbie
Sep 22, 2011
19
0
✟22,630.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Papias stated:

But aren't the natural laws of God the very epitome of rationality? If anything, it seems to me that the evolutionary process is as rational as it gets. How are the natural, rational laws more irrational than the idea that God poofed everything into existance willy-nilly (for instance making "day" and "night" before making the sun, making insect eating birds without first making insects, and so on, as described in Genesis if taken literally), in contradiction to all the rational evidence we see, from dozens of different scientific fields?

I pose that the making of "Day and Night" was actually the creation of Time, itself. Time necessitates a "division of a whole dimension into equal, segments". One can be in total darkness for a long period of time, and time will still exist. When the sun and light itself was introduced into the sphere of the earth, it refined Time by giving it light on a regular basis. Time was created (for the convenience of mankind to come) before the darkness was split by light from the (created) sun.

Of course, I only THINK this may have occurred. How do any of us really know?
Apart from God's (limited) explanation of how things happened ---- He created by speaking things into existence --- by His spoken Word




 
Upvote 0

mark kennedy

Natura non facit saltum
Site Supporter
Mar 16, 2004
22,030
7,265
62
Indianapolis, IN
✟594,630.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
And none of us will EVER be able to know the process of God's spoken Word bringing into existence the elements of the whole Universe. As a Creationist, I don't aspire to perfect knowledge, I aspire to perfect Love, which is God Himself.

That's right, when you will know even as you are known. It almost makes understanding nature seem trivial in comparison. Except that God's handiwork declares the glory of God.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
Upvote 0

Lepanto

Newbie
Jun 16, 2008
519
143
Liverpool
✟34,831.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Suppose I am doing a research sampling to see how many people love eating chocolate. The sample is randomly obtained and the sample size is 200.

I hypothesize the population proportion = 0.05. Suppose I found that 12 out of 200 people love chocolate. Then, since the sample size is large, I can be pretty confident that the real proportion is around 0.06. The 95% confidence interval would be roughly, say, 0.04 - 0.08.

The result should be enough for me to believe my hypothesis might be true (0.05). The larger the sample size is, the greater confidence it gives me.

On the other hand, if I found that 100 out of 200 people love chocolate. Then, there is evidence to reject my hypothesis, since the sample proportion should be a good estimate of the population proportion when the sample is random and big.

Now theory of evolution says that species was born out of chance mutation + natural selection, and there is no purpose behind it. If it were true, then today we should see more mutation failures (mutations that result in meaningless or bad combinations of DNA letters) than good ones. (It is rare for chance to create meaningful information, even if it could, the probability is small.)

But no, we rarely see that, all we see are normal animals which have inherited their characteristics fully from parents (ask a Vet). When did we ever see animals produced from bad mutations (which are different from their parents and which are unfit for life) ?

But if the theory were true, we should -- we should see much more mutation failures than successes, since mutations are merely based on chance. Chance cannot direct mutations in an intelligent and purposeful way. According to the logic and Inferential Statistics and Probability, the Population Proportion of success mutations should be 0% or very close to it. Let's say we allow it to be between 0% - 1%, i.e. at most 1 success per 100.
(For example, let's say, you allow a baby to randomly hit the keyboard for 1 year. What's the probability of him producing 1 meaningful sentence at least ? It is 0% or close to it.)


In the reality, what we saw is not even close to it, what we see are all healthy beings which look like have been individually designed. In the fossil record, it is the same situation. We have collected enough already huge, huge amount of fossil records already.

Yet evolutionists want us to believe "we are lucky enough to have a wonderful world evolved by chance, yet so unlucky that we could find none of the fossils of the intermediates" !!!
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

SkyWriting

The Librarian
Site Supporter
Jan 10, 2010
37,281
8,501
Milwaukee
✟411,038.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Upvote 0

gluadys

Legend
Mar 2, 2004
12,958
682
Toronto
✟39,020.00
Faith
Protestant
Politics
CA-NDP
I'm not aware of one. Do you have one in mind? Here are (about) 966 mutation failures.
Can you produce a LARGER list of successes to support your thesis?
How about 10?

List of genetic disorders - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Actually all of those ARE successes. How many people do you see with even one of these disorders, never mind combinations of multiple disorders?


The fact is that these disorders are found in a small minority of the general population. Why is that ? Because of evolution and natural selection. These are the conditions that don't get to affect many of the next generation because of the success of natural selection in keeping them from being inherited.

So what does get passed to the next generation? All the mutational successes. IOW normality. Every normal character in the human species is an example of a mutational success. (And for good measure the same applies in all other species as well.)

here are 10 for your list:

four-chambered heart--mutational success
opposable thumb--mutational success
colour vision--mutational success
large, complex brain--mutational success
chin--mutational success
three-boned middle ear--mutational success
mammary glands and milk production--mutational success
semicircular arrangement of teeth --mutational success
vertical face formation with retraction of jaw--mutational success
loss of thick layer of body hair--mutational success
 
Upvote 0

SkyWriting

The Librarian
Site Supporter
Jan 10, 2010
37,281
8,501
Milwaukee
✟411,038.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Actually all of those ARE successes. How many people do you see with even one of these disorders, never mind combinations of multiple disorders?The fact is that these disorders are found in a small minority of the general population. Why is that ? Because of evolution and natural selection. These are the conditions that don't get to affect many of the next generation because of the success of natural selection in keeping them from being inherited.So what does get passed to the next generation? All the mutational successes. IOW normality. Every normal character in the human species is an example of a mutational success. (And for good measure the same applies in all other species as well.)here are 10 for your list:four-chambered heart--mutational successopposable thumb--mutational successcolour vision--mutational successlarge, complex brain--mutational successchin--mutational successthree-boned middle ear--mutational success
mammary glands and milk production--mutational successsemicircular arrangement of teeth --mutational successvertical face formation with etraction of jaw--mutational successloss of thick layer of body hair--mutational success

Sorry. "Normality" does not count as a mutation.
Please list beneficial mutations that are recognized and sought after.
"How many people do you see with even one of these disorders?"
1.8% of live births. About 1 in 20. What does that have to do with it?

"one of these disorders, never mind combinations of multiple disorders?"
Up to 70% have multiple disorders.

"These are the conditions that don't get to affect many of the next generation because of the success of natural selection in keeping them from being inherited." Not even a hint of reality in your reality. Only a small percentage affect the reproductive process.
 
Upvote 0

gluadys

Legend
Mar 2, 2004
12,958
682
Toronto
✟39,020.00
Faith
Protestant
Politics
CA-NDP
Sorry. "Normality" does not count as a mutation.

Why not? All of these and other normal character traits were at one time due to one or more mutations. You are asking to be allowed to filter out some mutations and not include them in the count.


Please list beneficial mutations that are recognized and sought after.
"How many people do you see with even one of these disorders?"
1.8% of live births. About 1 in 20. What does that have to do with it?


I am not great at math, but the last time I looked 1 in 20 was 5.0% not 1.8%. I am inclined to think the latter figure is more accurate. There is a reason disorders tend to be found in a minority of any population and to keep being found in a minority of the population. What, according to you, holds these disorders in check so that they do not become common?



"one of these disorders, never mind combinations of multiple disorders?"
Up to 70% have multiple disorders.

Up to 70% of whom? Everyone? I doubt that. How many with muscular dystrophy are also congenitally deaf? How many congenitally deaf people also have Downs Syndrome? How many children born with Tay-Sachs also have Cystic Fibrosis or Spina bifida?


"These are the conditions that don't get to affect many of the next generation because of the success of natural selection in keeping them from being inherited." Not even a hint of reality in your reality.

The reality depicted in that article is the same reality I am speaking of. If you don't get it, you didn't understand the article. The fact of the matter is that people born with these disorders usually don't get to have children (or many children) because 1. they die before they mature,or 2. they don't succeed in finding a mate, or 3. they are sterile, or 4. their children may also share their defects, reducing the likelihood the line will continue.

True, an effect of modern medicine is that more are living to maturity and some are marrying who never would have had that chance a century ago. And more people who might have had large families in the past are opting for smaller families. So the demographics will likely change, but that is also predictable as an evolutionary effect in current circumstances.




Only a small percentage affect the reproductive process.

They don't have to affect the reproductive process at all. They only have to affect the likelihood that the organism will 1. survive to maturity, 2. successfully mate and 3. produce viable offspring. Any failure or reduction of success in any of these categories will keep mutational disorders from becoming too common in the population. Any exceptional success in these categories will assure the continual propagation of a trait that helped to produce that success. Which is why past beneficial mutations are what become normality in a species over time and why normal does count when numbering mutations.
 
Upvote 0

SkyWriting

The Librarian
Site Supporter
Jan 10, 2010
37,281
8,501
Milwaukee
✟411,038.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
What, according to you, holds these disorders in check so that they do not become common?

Mutation, DNA Repair, and DNA Integrity | Learn Science at Scitable





Up to 70% of whom?
Of those affected.


The fact of the matter is that people born with these disorders usually don't get to have children (or many children) because 1. they die before they mature,or 2. they don't succeed in finding a mate, or 3. they are sterile, or 4. their children may also share their defects, reducing the likelihood the line will continue.

Your opinion is noted.

Human evolution is over, says UCL academic

NPQ

Steve Jones Enlightenment Lecture - Is Human Evolution Over?' - YouTube



...normal does count when numbering mutations.

Nope.

mu·ta·tion   [myoo-tey-shuhn]noun
1.
Biology.
a.
a sudden departure from the parent type in one or more heritable characteristics, caused by a change in a gene or a chromosome.
b.
an individual, species, or the like, resulting from such a departure.
 
Upvote 0

gluadys

Legend
Mar 2, 2004
12,958
682
Toronto
✟39,020.00
Faith
Protestant
Politics
CA-NDP
gluadys said:
Up to 70% of whom?

Of those affected.

Duh!. And, as noted, only a small minority of the population is affected. e.g. 70% of 5% is 3.5%




Your opinion is noted.

And not refuted.







Nope.

mu·ta·tion   [myoo-tey-shuhn]noun
1.
Biology.
a.
a sudden departure from the parent type in one or more heritable characteristics, caused by a change in a gene or a chromosome.
b.
an individual, species, or the like, resulting from such a departure.

Yes, since by either of these definitions one gets what becomes normal in a species in the future.
 
Upvote 0

SkyWriting

The Librarian
Site Supporter
Jan 10, 2010
37,281
8,501
Milwaukee
✟411,038.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Duh!. And, as noted, only a small minority of the population is affected. e.g. 70% of 5% is 3.5%
And not refuted.
Yes, since by either of these definitions one gets what becomes normal in a species in the future.

Maybe someone else can figure out what your trying to say. Best of luck.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0