No conviction of sin

losthope

Regular Member
Dec 18, 2004
340
15
✟18,607.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
To saralynn, thank you for your contribution.

It looks as if your spiritual search and mine were aimed in different directions. Nevertheless, as you say, we had similar experiences and similar states of mind when it all collapsed.

The fact that I was denied any sort of revelatory experience myself was disappointing, but not troubling because I trusted in the words and deeds of others whose lives were transformed by God. However, this all ended abruptly in what I can only describe as an existential revelation, not of hope, but of despair. I suddenly knew that all my aspirations were based on hopes, dreams and illusions. I prayed, but the prayers floated up into a Universe devoid of spiritual warmth and I sank into a serious depression for almost two years.

It would please me to report that an angel came down and kissed my forehead, but, no such miraculous event occurred. My faith has not been restored to what it was before. However, I have come to terms with the loss of my convictions and have learned to live in a Universe that is filled with mystery, paradox and ambiguity.

I can certainly relate to most of what you wrote here. In the loss of hope and faith: seeing other people’s lives transformed by God but having no revelation myself ... faith ending in despair ... sinking into depression for more than a year. Then in coming to terms with life after faith, with the loss of my convictions and learning to live in the new and very different situation.

I have not read any of the authors that you mentioned. I find philosophy difficult to follow. There often seem to be too many unproved assertions with other ideas built on them. I prefer to have things with a firm foundation.

Process theology is something that I had never heard of. I looked it up on the internet and was not really drawn to it.

Evolutionary Christianity is a new name for something that I am very familiar with, the idea that modern science and the Christian faith can stand side by side without any contradiction other than the creation stories in Genesis. I find it sad that many Christians are quick to reject modern scientific ideas without ever learning about them. Yet they would be the first to condemn non-Christians for not reading the Bible. I have looked at books that attempt to give a so-called scientific explanation for a young created earth. They tend first to reject the argument that certain scientific constants have always had the same value, and then try to back up the creationist ideas by arguing that different scientific constants have always had the same value. In a sense they dig a hole to try to bury science and then fall in it themselves.

(If any fundamentalists are reading this, there is no need to comment here; I am not intending to get into arguments about creation in this thread.)

I have studied psychology and am aware that Eastern philosophy has had an influence, particularly in the humanistic school of psychology.

You finished by suggesting that I believe in my own resurrection. That is one thing I cannot do, because life after death is simply of no interest to me.
 
Upvote 0

visionary

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.
Supporter
Mar 25, 2004
56,917
8,033
✟572,538.44
Faith
Messianic
In various Bible passages, for example John 16:8, it says that the Holy Spirit will convict people of sin. Many Christians believe that until a person is convicted of sin by the Holy Spirit, they will not have a real awareness of being a sinner, and therefore will not be ready to ask for forgiveness and be saved.

I have a general awareness of sin, but I have never experienced anything that I could describe as a real conviction of sin. If conviction of sin by the Holy Spirit is a prerequisite to becoming a Christian, and I never have this, where does that leave me with regard to salvation? Am I destined never to know God? Must I simply wait until the Holy Spirit acts? Or might there be something that I could do to help the process?
That is why scripture says to meditate upon His Word... the law defines sin.. the law convicts people of sin...

Psalm 1:2
But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.

Joshua 1:8
This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success.

from there the Holy Spirit convicts.:thumbsup:

John 8:9
And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
 
Upvote 0

saralynn

Newbie
Aug 7, 2011
40
2
✟8,907.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
You finished by suggesting that I believe in my own resurrection. That is one thing I cannot do, because life after death is simply of no interest to me.

I feel exactly the same as you do. My focus has never been on life after death, unless it is in some form form in which my separate sense of ego disappears and the best within me merges with something greater than myself. My reference to your own resurrection was not meant to be interpreted literally, but, was used to describe a sense of renewel that may evolve in time.

Luck always plays a role when we recommend books that have inspired us, but the often turn out to be duds for the recipient. Each of us is so unique that it's a guessing game to find a book that will resonate with someone else. I just threw out a lot of suggestions to emphasize that there are other options to investigate in additon to the traditional ones which we usually rely upon? Did you try Andrew Harvey? He's my favorite Christian, as well as Polkinghorne.

I am an avid reader of science, although the material has to be dumbed down for me because I'm an amateur. I have little patience with people who don't believe in evolution, but, I also get exasperated by atheists who are strict materialists. At best, scientists have probably only investigated less that 5% of the cosmos, so how do they know if what is true here is the same beyond our telescopic horizons? Plus, you add in extra dimensions, quantum bizarreness and black matter, all of which are as difficult to imagine as God is, how can anyone insist that there may not be a spiritual dimension as well? Sheer arrogance!

Would like to add a few more observations, but, no time today. Hope to catch you later.
 
Upvote 0

razeontherock

Well-Known Member
May 24, 2010
26,545
1,480
WI
✟35,597.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
attracted to the mystical revelations from a variety of religious traditions and saw how a golden thread of sacred and universal wisdom seemed to run through the varying creeds and doctrines.

:wave: Welcome to CF, Sister! Christianity needs more of it's adherents to realize this is not exclusive, like some country club membership ...

The fact that I was denied any sort of revelatory experience myself was disappointing, but not troubling because I trusted in the words and deeds of others whose lives were transformed by God.

I can't help but comment that that IS personal revelation - and a wonderful form of it!

As my first Pastor often said - "the only Gospel some will hear, is YOU."

we are each called to incarnate the divine and transfigure reality by making a total gift of ourselves to love.

Thank you for this beautiful glimpse into your heart! Don't even try telling me you came to this realization devoid of Divine revelation ^_^ (It can come in ways we don't recognize though - and usually does ;))

If we succeed and enough of us are committed to fulfilling God’s promise, expressed in many ways through diverse cultures, we may really someday create “Earth as it is in Heaven"

I have to ask, did you intentionally tie this in to Jesus being seated, as opposed to standing? The Bible tells us He is seated until we make His enemies a footstool for His feet, and it is not too difficult to read it so that He returns only after that. (This has direct parallels within other belief systems, which you apparently know) Also significant here is Stephen's sermon in Acts, at the conclusion of which He saw Jesus standing ...

Buddhism is not really a religion, but, the teachings are pragmatic, not dogmatic and prescriptive, not descriptive. Nothing is to be “attained”…everything is to be uncovered, recognized and realized. The mind, like an attachment on a vacuum cleaner, cleans itself. I love it and find many Buddhist authors quite insightful.

Are you familiar with Thomas Merton? Search for poster "Tariki" here; I'm sure you'd enjoy him! To our OP, it's easy to say "hang on," but far more substantial to give you something to hang onto. The subject matter here is rich; I hope you find it helpful!
 
Upvote 0

razeontherock

Well-Known Member
May 24, 2010
26,545
1,480
WI
✟35,597.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
There is no doubt that the Bible says that a contrite heart is important. So maybe it does matter very much. It is a possible explanation that is consistent with my experience. However, in one sense it is not a very hopeful explanation, because if I am constitutionally unable to have a conviction of sin and a contrite heart to the degree that God wants, then there is no hope of salvation.

:) I have been exactly where you are! I am pleased to announce G-d is also greater than this. (As well as some other things you mentioned, like satan being greater because he can blind people to the Gospel. No, there is no contest between those 2 entities, and the contest is not between them, but between satan and US)

Here's the solution, and before this I got nowhere with my Faith:

Ezekiel 11:19 "And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:"

Ezekiel 36:26 "A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh."

I came to realize I truly did not have a "whole heart" to seek the Lord, saw the above Scriptures as being essential to my Salvation, and prayed for that to be an event in my life. I will add that this was during a very intense period in my life, with much fasting in addition to prayer, Bible reading, study, etc etc ETC.

Ok, those are specific things. Now I want to move on to more general things:

IMHO emotions are not so critical to this whole process as you seem to think.

What if, on Judgment Day, the Lord says to you that you have lived the Gospel better than many who profess to know Him?

I will now repeat, in full, a 20 minute sermon I heard from a very emotional type believer you would no doubt esteem: "plow on."

That was his whole sermon. Yes, said in every possible inflection, and then some. ^_^ Are you getting the point?
 
Upvote 0

losthope

Regular Member
Dec 18, 2004
340
15
✟18,607.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
To joey down under, thank you for your recent contributions.

I downloaded the ebook about metanoia and read the first part of it. It is not easy reading. He suggests that the word sometimes translated as “repent” should instead be a challenge to change your mind, to develop a new way of thinking.

Maybe I do not understand the arguments fully in the ebook, but to me repentance ought to be an essential part of the changing of the mind that should come about when God starts to work in a person. Repentance is about turning away from a self-centred attitude and turning instead towards God, and beginning to think and to act as God wants the person to think and act. An example of how to help people to do this comes from the “What would Jesus do” movement, encouraging people to try to think in the way that God would want them to think.

I write about God being part of the process, working in the person, because for me it was not possible to sustain such an attitude in my own strength. It is not desirable to do it on my own either, because the Bible speaks of God acting on us to change us from within.

In a sense I have to use my own personal experience here, my experience of turning to God and having no response from God that I was aware of. I did not have a conviction of sin from the Holy Spirit that led me to have a great desire to repent. Also during the time that I was a believer the Holy Spirit did not try to encourage me to change my way of thinking, as far as I am aware. So in this sense it does not make any difference how the word metanoia is translated; in neither case did God respond to me in any way that I was aware of.

As you wrote to saralynn, grace is needed from God.

When I wrote about 2 Corinthians 4, I was not really suggesting that the devil is more powerful than God. Instead, I was questioning the statement. As for the ideas of predestination versus free will, I can conceive of a God that is able to reconcile those two ideas without any difficulty – but it requires a very wide concept of time and eternity, and a God rather larger and more powerful than the God that most Christians appear to worship.

You wrote this:
If God made you psalm 139 ,if God knows everything from beginning to end of time Isaiah 44:6-8 , surely He would know whether you are sincere whether you actually feel it or not? Are you willing to change how you view things to please God? Are you willing to change behaviour to do His will?

I could not really see the significance of the Isaiah passage here. You ask if I am willing to change how I view things to please God. Well, I thought that was what I did when I became a believer – but it did not help me to find a relationship with God. So the best answer I can give is that yes I am willing to change how I view things and I am willing to change my behaviour, but I cannot do it yet because I would just make the same mistakes (whatever they were) as I did when I used to be a believer many years ago. First I need to find out what went wrong then, and if necessary put it right; only then will I be ready to trust God again.

The thing that has struck me during your conversation is how many good christians you have around you for support.

It has not seemed like that to me. I always have to go and seek out Christians to help, and many are not willing or they simply admit that they are out of their depth when they hear my story. Or they give up when I do not seem to be making any progress. Currently I am speaking with only one Christian, the minister of a local Baptist church, and I will not see him again until early September.

Well there is a good and a bad side of being a thinker. It is good for a christian to seek to understand why they believe what they believe. That way it's not a mindless faith that is easily shaken when things happen that are not easily explained by merely quoting scripture. It is a bad thing when you keep on seeing every thing that the world uses to explain away Christianity as being a possible logical point of view and in the process forget that people who seem to validly explain away religion often do not WANT to believe, rather than CANNOT believe.

I agree that there are people who do not want to believe, although that does not necessarily mean that their arguments are worthless. However, it was not listening to anti-Christian arguments that caused me to question my salvation and eventually to abandon my faith. The cause was lack of discernable response from God. A single word from God would counter all of the atheistic arguments in the world.

Of course I have used my mind to try to understand why I was a believer for two years without ever being aware of any response from God. I have thought of five possibilities that are consistent with my experience. One of those possibilities is that I did not have a real conviction of sin and therefore did not experience a special need for a saviour. I am trying to investigate that possibility by starting this thread. But I remain aware of the other four possibilities – and am also aware that other possibilities might later be discovered that are consistent with my experience.

I meant trust that you were serving God in your own special way. Please don't think you might earn a feeling relationship when you do enough good things.

No, I never thought that.

With you and I a relationship with God means faith NOT feelings.

Yes, and I had faith during the time that I was a believer. Just ask some of the people who knew me back then. Faith yes, but no relationship with God.
 
Upvote 0

losthope

Regular Member
Dec 18, 2004
340
15
✟18,607.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
That is why scripture says to meditate upon His Word... the law defines sin.. the law convicts people of sin...

Psalm 1:2
But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.

Joshua 1:8
This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success.

from there the Holy Spirit convicts.:thumbsup:

John 8:9
And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

You wrote that the law convicts people of sin through the work of the Holy Spirit, and that we can find out about the law by reading the Bible. I am aware that this is the way it works for some people. However it has not been like this for me. I am familiar with my Bible, and appreciate the law in the Bible, but there has been no conviction of sin for me. After all of these years, I am not expecting to receive a conviction of sin through reading the Bible. For me there has never been any special revelation of a spiritual truth through reading the Bible. For me, faith in God has to come first; only when I have this would I be able to consider being able to trust the Bible in the way that many Christians do.
 
Upvote 0

losthope

Regular Member
Dec 18, 2004
340
15
✟18,607.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
To saralynn, you wrote this:

My reference to your own resurrection was not meant to be interpreted literally, but, was used to describe a sense of renewel that may evolve in time.

Well yes I am certainly searching for some kind of renewal.

Did you try Andrew Harvey? He's my favorite Christian, as well as Polkinghorne.

I looked at what Andrew Harvey writes about and immediately knew that it was not for me. He deals with spiritual practices, some of which I have tried and found that they do absolutely nothing for me. For example a Buddhist teacher of meditation asked me to try an exercise and he said that he had never managed to complete it. I did it twice one after the other, and it meant nothing to me. The result is that it is not only Christians who despair of my complete lack of spiritual awareness. Buddhists, new age people and those of no faith have all commented on my apparent lack of spiritual awareness.

I agree with you about the extreme views of fundamentalist Christians (and of any other religion) and of some strict materialists. I really do not know if there is a spiritual dimension or not, whether it is real or a type of self-delusion. I only know that I have never experienced it myself. But as you say, there is still much in science to discover and to understand, and I would definitely not rule out the possibility of a spiritual dimension.
 
Upvote 0

joey_downunder

big sister
Apr 25, 2009
3,064
152
Land Down Under
✟12,875.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
I downloaded the ebook about metanoia and read the first part of it. It is not easy reading. He suggests that the word sometimes translated as “repent” should instead be a challenge to change your mind, to develop a new way of thinking.
It is very formal language! I hoped you would read the first chapter or two though for the different perspective.
I write about God being part of the process, working in the person, because for me it was not possible to sustain such an attitude in my own strength. It is not desirable to do it on my own either, because the Bible speaks of God acting on us to change us from within.
Yes that is correct. There is no way we can do it in our own strength. Only God can change us from the inside out. There is never any guarantee that the changes in us will be immediately obvious either. Do you remember the fruits of the Holy Spirit? Passage: galatians 5:22-24 (ESV Bible Online) Look at them objectively - many christians may claim they feel these things. Do they demonstrate love e.g. charity work? Do they demonstrate joy e.g. being able to trust God during extreme grief/stress? Do they demonstrate God's peace in the middle of personal trials? Do they demonstrate faith in God e.g. trust that God has it all under control? Do they consistently demonstrate unusual kindness, gentleness, self-control that no normal person has?

There is a reason for the saying "empty vessels make the most sound". Think of some of the extreme and loudest televangelists that have fallen into deep sin and/or had the biggest personal scandals. Those people are claiming they are having direct contact with angels and spiritual meetings with God in heaven all the time. If their feelings are the true measure of spirituality then they all should be saints in real life.

Perhaps now it is time for you to try to look at the "I never have felt like I have a relationship with God" glass as half-full rather completely empty? There is a whole area of spiritual danger that you would never experience because you won't EVER measure your christian walk by ecstatic spiritual anointings or feeling God's presence. I had fallen for that deception BIG TIME and your conversation with me is really striking it home to me how my brain surgery has freed me from an extremely dangerous spiritual trap. If people can feel God's love ALL the time without EVER feeling any need for repentance are they to be likely to be looking for God Himself through reading the Bible and spending time in genuine prayer/personal reflection or are they going to get the quick "spiritual" high whenever they can?

Now this is an example of the dangers of spiritual excess in the feelings department. I had a very serious talk to a online christian friend some time ago and showed her so much information about how this hypercharismatic christian "teacher' *cough splutter gasp* was a terrible false teacher/prophet. She would not listen to me - this man's teachings provided her with the positive feelings she craves that the Bible does not always give. Experiences are what rules her spiritual world. It is heartbreaking to see what excess focus on feelings can do to a christian. I have prayed that she gets back on the straight-and-narrow path of faith and puts her eyes on God alone. (By the way I don't check that blog that much any more because I get very distressed when I read her worse and worse entries.)
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

joey_downunder

big sister
Apr 25, 2009
3,064
152
Land Down Under
✟12,875.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
In a sense I have to use my own personal experience here, my experience of turning to God and having no response from God that I was aware of. I did not have a conviction of sin from the Holy Spirit that led me to have a great desire to repent...... in neither case did God respond to me in any way that I was aware of.
But awareness of actual growth is not guaranteed! That applies to your concern that people haven't noticed any real change in you either. Here's a metaphor that is used a great deal by Jesus. john 15:1-11 I know I only did basic high school biology but I never heard of any nerve or sensory cells in plants that would give them feelings e.g. growing pains. We will grow if we remain in Him.

But you will probably say but I have never had any "measurable" spiritual growth. Well in Australia some plants are extremely slow growing. e.g. Xanthorrhoea An inch in a year! That's assuming there's been no bushfire or drought either! Someone inexperienced in botany may never see any signs of growth at all - does it mean that plant is dead though? Are the leaves still firm and green? Have you been in a spiritually stable environment (enough rain, stable soil etc)? Or have you been through a spiritual bushfire and gone backwards because you were not aware of what you had experienced without any sense of pain (feeling remorse, needing to repent etc)?

As for the ideas of predestination versus free will, I can conceive of a God that is able to reconcile those two ideas without any difficulty – but it requires a very wide concept of time and eternity, and a God rather larger and more powerful than the God that most Christians appear to worship.

There you go - you have just said something that makes that spiritual concept a lot more understandable to me. Do you think a genuine atheist/agnostic is likely to be able to do that?
I could not really see the significance of the Isaiah passage here.
Showing that God is the one who is all-knowing God who knows everything from the beginning of time to the end of time. Therefore He would know if your heart/head is truly sincere if you are seeking Him - whether you ever feel "it" or Him in this life.
So the best answer I can give is that yes I am willing to change how I view things and I am willing to change my behaviour, but I cannot do it yet because I would just make the same mistakes (whatever they were) as I did when I used to be a believer many years ago. First I need to find out what went wrong then, and if necessary put it right; only then will I be ready to trust God again.
Everything that I have read of yours so far makes me think that you are sincere. The thing is that you are not the one who is reliable - you are human, you are imperfect, you will never have all the answers - have you looked to God for answers through the Bible? Proverbs 3:5-8
I always have to go and seek out Christians to help, and many are not willing or they simply admit that they are out of their depth.

Well honestly many people don't have the time these days and/or the ability to think through very difficult issues. The idea that someone may not be able to feel anything is too unbelievable to them. Do they get glazed blank looks on their faces as well? ^_^ I hope that minister helps you express your concerns well. I think you need a good listener more than an adviser at the moment. And I hope you can work through your 4 other options you have in your mind with him as well. Pastors are usually very understanding and will have heard of spiritual struggles before.... maybe not due to lack of feeling though, but everything else.

And finally.... a while back I mentioned a sermon my pastor preached on depression and it's on their website now. "Growing with depression" (4/8/11) Oakden Baptist Church - Download free podcast episodes by Oakden Baptist Church on iTunes.
You might like the Lord, help me change series as it's a pretty practical one. They always keep all the Bible in context as well.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

saralynn

Newbie
Aug 7, 2011
40
2
✟8,907.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Lost Hope: I looked at what Andrew Harvey writes about and immediately knew that it was not for me. He deals with spiritual practices, some of which I have tried and found that they do absolutely nothing for me. For example a Buddhist teacher of meditation asked me to try an exercise and he said that he had never managed to complete it. I did it twice one after the other, and it meant nothing to me. The result is that it is not only Christians who despair of my complete lack of spiritual awareness. Buddhists, new age people and those of no faith have all commented on my apparent lack of spiritual awareness.

Now that I think about it, I've never read anything by Harvey; I've only listened to him. I don't recall him mentioning spiritual practices, but, I'm sure he does. Whatever they are, I don't do any of them. Alas, in regard to emotion, I am in the same pickle that you are, but, the difference is, I'm not troubled by it. Even when I was filled with faith, I never "felt" so. I assumed it was because I'm intellectually rather than emotionally inclined. British type, you know?

Seems to me that your biggest problem is that you are identifying with the ego level of your personality...the one that, in you, can't feel "conviction of guilt". It obviously somehow connotes "failure" on your part, as if you are responsible for the absence of what other people seem to have. Why don't you try identifying with the part of you that is observing your ego, instead of the ego itself? The part of you that is observing the ego may not be "emotional", but, you will see, most likely, that he is much wiser, objective and compassionate than the childish ego with its incessant demands. "I want to feel this way and I can't....waaaaah!"

How about "radical acceptance'? If you've done everything you possibly can to remedy the situation with no success, why not admit that fact and surrender the problem to God? You don't believe we have to "earn" grace, do you?

Also, if you prefer to feel comforted in your misery rather than revise your philosophical outlook, you might try reading "Come Be My Light" about Mother Teresa's struggles with doubt caused by the seeming absence of God in her life for many years. Heartbreaking. But, maybe her suffering was needed and recorded so as to provide solace for people like you.

Who knows? Not me, that's for sure.
 
Upvote 0

losthope

Regular Member
Dec 18, 2004
340
15
✟18,607.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
To razeontherock. You wrote this:
I have been exactly where you are! I am pleased to announce G-d is also greater than this. Here's the solution, and before this I got nowhere with my Faith:

Ezekiel 11:19 "And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:"

Ezekiel 36:26 "A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh."

I came to realize I truly did not have a "whole heart" to seek the Lord, saw the above Scriptures as being essential to my Salvation, and prayed for that to be an event in my life.


Both of the passages from Ezekiel are addressed to the house of Israel, to those who were in exile. Are they also relevant to us now? For the moment I will assume that they are relevant to us now.

Reading on to Ezekiel 36:31-32 “Then you will remember your evil ways and your wicked deeds, and you will loathe yourselves for your sins and detestable practices. ... Be ashamed and disgraced for your conduct”

These verses sound to me very much like God promising to give the people a conviction of sin. The implication is that a person with a “stony heart” will not have a conviction of sin, not until God gives them a “heart of flesh” and a new spirit.

Now I would not describe myself as having a stony heart. More a lack of heart, or at least a lack of emotions, which are a major component of what the Bible calls “heart”. Also I certainly lack awareness of having a spirit, new or old.

For you the solution was to ask God for a whole heart.

For me I fear that having a whole heart would be an absolute disaster, as far as my search for God is concerned. Suppose that by some miracle I was able to experience emotions for the first time in my life. Would that make it possible for me to experience a real conviction of sin, to come to God and to know the power of God in my life? Definitely not. Because I would see any apparent response from God as just a consequence of my emotions. Then I would know for certain that what most Christians call the work of God is in reality just the effect of overactive emotions and wishful thinking. Self-delusion. It would prove to me that emotions really are at the heart of the Christian faith, in complete contrast to what Christians keep telling me.

For this reason I am not going to pray for healing, for God to give me a heart of flesh.

What if, on Judgment Day, the Lord says to you that you have lived the Gospel better than many who profess to know Him?

It is a possibility, but not one that I would stake my eternity on – if I was interested in eternity.

I will now repeat, in full, a 20 minute sermon I heard from a very emotional type believer you would no doubt esteem: "plow on."

That was his whole sermon. Yes, said in every possible inflection, and then some. Are you getting the point?

Sorry I do not think that I am getting the point. What did the preacher mean by “plow on”?


Also in your response to saralynn you wrote this:
Are you familiar with Thomas Merton? Search for poster "Tariki" here; I'm sure you'd enjoy him! To our OP, it's easy to say "hang on," but far more substantial to give you something to hang onto. The subject matter here is rich; I hope you find it helpful!

What did you mean? Were you suggesting that I would also enjoy Thomas Merton?
 
Upvote 0

saralynn

Newbie
Aug 7, 2011
40
2
✟8,907.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Lost Hope: For me I fear that having a whole heart would be an absolute disaster, as far as my search for God is concerned. Suppose that by some miracle I was able to experience emotions for the first time in my life. Would that make it possible for me to experience a real conviction of sin, to come to God and to know the power of God in my life? Definitely not. Because I would see any apparent response from God as just a consequence of my emotions. Then I would know for certain that what most Christians call the work of God is in reality just the effect of overactive emotions and wishful thinking. Self-delusion. It would prove to me that emotions really are at the heart of the Christian faith, in complete contrast to what Christians keep telling me.

This is reasonable, but I don't know if it is entirely logical. Because the brain responds to stimuli....in this case, the thought of "God"... with emotion doesn't necessarily indicate that the object which produces inspiration is not real. Either 1. Our emotions are self-induced and thus we are happily delusional. God does not exist and we are pathetic creatures who make meaning for ourselves because the alternative is too painful. 2. Our emotions are self-induced and thus we are happy, but not delusional because God exists and this is the way He made us. He uses the fact that our brains produce emotions to serve His ends. 3. God exists and directly affects our emotions by means of "Grace"

Now, all three of these are possible, so, without any personal validation,...(which seems to be your and my fate).... we have to choose one of these options or forever vacillate between the three. If we select either one of the three, it requires faith. Faith in #1 requires that we decide not to believe in the testimonies of all Christians past and present and insist they are all self-deluded. The other two require that we have faith that God exists, but, in both cases, we are totally dependent on God to make Himself evident to us. All we can do is ask for a response, but if it is not given, we have to remind ourselves not to arrive at any conclusions because...well, we don't have enough evidence. We're all guessing here.

I happen to believe all three are true, but, even that requires faith. No way around it...a choice is involved. Unless, of course, you decide not to choose, which is...yep...a choice.





As I said, I have a "yearning" for God, but, have not felt his presence or had any kind of revelation.
 
Upvote 0

joey_downunder

big sister
Apr 25, 2009
3,064
152
Land Down Under
✟12,875.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
I hope you don't mind me responding to one of your entries to another contributor.
For example a Buddhist teacher of meditation asked me to try an exercise and he said that he had never managed to complete it. I did it twice one after the other, and it meant nothing to me. The result is that it is not only Christians who despair of my complete lack of spiritual awareness. Buddhists, new age people and those of no faith have all commented on my apparent lack of spiritual awareness.
Ask yourself these questions carefully:
1. Do you remember when you did this i.e. before/during/after the time you seem to have decided you mustn't be a "real" christian?
2. How many other non-christian religions have you investigated spiritual experiences through? What is the first commandment? Exodus 20:3
3. Why are christians warned against the occult/pagan religions? Categories of Occult Groups.
4. Example of deliverance prayers and advice: HOW TO BE DELIVERED FROM THE OCCULT OR WITCHCRAFT

It doesn't matter how little you may have dabbled in the occult, it will have affected you spiritually (whether you have felt it or ever feel it or not). 1 Peter 5:8 , Proverbs 25:26 , Ephesians 4:30 , Romans 6:23
 
Upvote 0

razeontherock

Well-Known Member
May 24, 2010
26,545
1,480
WI
✟35,597.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I will respond to what yo have written back to me, but first I must make some amends. Online I frequently get sidetracked with responding to a poster, and wind up ignoring what G-d puts on my heart. I would never do that in person!
I shouldn't do that online, either.

I have to ask, what do you fathom of Christ's Passion that affects any of us today?

Here's something that's very meaningful to me, and as I ate a nice lunch this thread and your situation came to mind. Holy Communion started as a mean, and Jesus said "as often as you do this, do this in remembrance of me." I'm not trying to say anything dogmatic here, but for me personally, it is of great benefit to recognize that just as food is prepared by perhaps harvesting wheat and processing it, including sifting the flour etc., the Jesus submitted Himself figuratively to that sifting process. He was literally broken, so that we may have Life. Just as we chew our food to obtain necessary nourishment, so we partake in the physical breaking of His body.

A mind-boggling Truth, yes; but it is godly sorrow that works repentance!

The daily reality of His Loving sacrifice impacting us, and being the only way to escape the wrath that is to come, and G-d's fierce Judgment that no flesh can withstand, may be something worth your effort to become aware of? I don't just "say grace" or "ask the Blessing" over my food, I truly "do this in remembrance of Him." It might help you too?

For you the solution was to ask God for a whole heart.

For me I fear that having a whole heart would be an absolute disaster, as far as my search for God is concerned.

I understand what you're saying, even though I truncated that part. I urge you to reconsider, and arm you with Scripture to do so:

Genesis 2:7 "And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

This tells me that when G-d 'breathes His Life' unto us, or when we come in contact with His Presence, we are changed. We may not always get a "new soul" every time, but we do get renewed, refreshed, regenerated, restored ...

And these changes happen in our soul! At least at first. (Exactly what goes on re: our own spirit, and how that differs from the Holy Spirit filling us, is not something I have revelation on.) I'll also make a qualifying statement, that the Bible makes it clear that only the Word of G-d is sharp enough to distinguish between soul and spirit.

Yet our soul clearly contains our emotions. And our awareness. (Which is not to say our spirit has none of those, nor will I comment on our conscience.)

So if you decide that G-d plucking out of you a stony heart and / or otherwise giving you whatever He means by "a heart of flesh" is not for you, for the reasons you stated, you are really turning down G-d's offer of Salvation.

I urge you to reconsider!

Emotions are part of life. They are not something to base our life upon, neither are they solid rock to base our Faith upon. The only thing we can count on about our emotions, is that they will change. Also, as men, this society teaches us that to experience our emotions is very unmanly. This is unhealthy, and pure hogwash! We will in fact experience them, and deal with them, one way or another. And I can tell you first-hand that learning to do so w/ the Lord in your life will result in you getting to know Him as your Wonderful Counselor. (This comprises the bulk of the book of Psalms; David really 'lets it all hang out,' bending G-d's ear as his personal psychotherapist.)

Sorry I do not think that I am getting the point. What did the preacher mean by “plow on”?

You are doing at least some things that are right, and good. Continue! (Galatians 6:9) "And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not."

Also in your response to saralynn you wrote this:
Are you familiar with Thomas Merton? Search for poster "Tariki" here; I'm sure you'd enjoy him! To our OP, it's easy to say "hang on," but far more substantial to give you something to hang onto. The subject matter here is rich; I hope you find it helpful!

What did you mean? Were you suggesting that I would also enjoy Thomas Merton?

Thomas Merton embraced both Buddhist thought, and (of all things) Catholicism. Pretty sure he was a monk. I do think Jesus mastered and exemplified all of Buddhist teaching, on the cross. If there is any appeal of the Buddhist type of approach, this would be a great resource for you to pursue ...

May God bless your search :groupray:
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

losthope

Regular Member
Dec 18, 2004
340
15
✟18,607.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
I hope you don't mind me responding to one of your entries to another contributor.

Ask yourself these questions carefully:
1. Do you remember when you did this i.e. before/during/after the time you seem to have decided you mustn't be a "real" christian?
2. How many other non-christian religions have you investigated spiritual experiences through? What is the first commandment? Exodus 20:3
3. Why are christians warned against the occult/pagan religions? Categories of Occult Groups.
4. Example of deliverance prayers and advice: HOW TO BE DELIVERED FROM THE OCCULT OR WITCHCRAFT

It doesn't matter how little you may have dabbled in the occult, it will have affected you spiritually (whether you have felt it or ever feel it or not). 1 Peter 5:8 , Proverbs 25:26 , Ephesians 4:30 , Romans 6:23

You sounded worried so I thought that I had better respond to this post first.

I appreciate your concern here. But no I have not dabbled in the occult. Asking a Buddhist to teach me a little about meditation is very different from accepting the teachings of another religion. No more than a person who asked a Christian friend about Jesus turning water into wine would be “dabbling in Christianity”.

My answers to your four questions are:
1. I did not do this until at least 25 years after my time as a Christian.
2. I have never investigated “spiritual experiences” through another religion. Indeed I have never had any spiritual experiences. Not Christian ones, not any other kind.
3. At this stage I am not a Christian. However I have never thought of becoming a member of any other religion or occult group.
4. In the past, Christians have suggested that I might need some type of deliverance from the occult, and have acted on this. Nothing happened.

I remain convinced that I have never been influenced by anything spiritual. Except in recognising that by not being influenced spiritually, I am missing out on an important aspect of life.
 
Upvote 0

oi_antz

Opposed to Untruth.
Apr 26, 2010
5,696
277
New Zealand
✟7,997.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
You sounded worried so I thought that I had better respond to this post first.

I appreciate your concern here. But no I have not dabbled in the occult. Asking a Buddhist to teach me a little about meditation is very different from accepting the teachings of another religion. No more than a person who asked a Christian friend about Jesus turning water into wine would be “dabbling in Christianity”.

My answers to your four questions are:
1. I did not do this until at least 25 years after my time as a Christian.
2. I have never investigated “spiritual experiences” through another religion. Indeed I have never had any spiritual experiences. Not Christian ones, not any other kind.
3. At this stage I am not a Christian. However I have never thought of becoming a member of any other religion or occult group.
4. In the past, Christians have suggested that I might need some type of deliverance from the occult, and have acted on this. Nothing happened.

I remain convinced that I have never been influenced by anything spiritual. Except in recognising that by not being influenced spiritually, I am missing out on an important aspect of life.
Hi losthope, I haven't followed the entire thread, but it seems to me from hearing you speak you are not against Christianity, but you just lack the conviction of it's truth. Are you able to pin-point the moment this happened? Usually when a Christian chooses to disobey God and indulge in sin the Holy Spirit will seem to disappear. That is called backsliding. It will either make you or break you, it seems that sin is not always stronger than the love we have for God and it could be why you have become active in your search to understand the truth. I know when I went my own way about 11 years ago I never knew what happened until the Holy Spirit lit my life up again. All I can say is keep digging because the treasure is right there where you are standing, you just need to uncover it and you can only do that by being honest in your investigation.
 
Upvote 0

losthope

Regular Member
Dec 18, 2004
340
15
✟18,607.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
To joey down under, thank you for your recent contributions. I have already responded to #94.

You wrote this:
Do you remember the fruits of the Holy Spirit? Passage: galatians 5:22-24 (ESV Bible Online) Look at them objectively - many christians may claim they feel these things. Do they demonstrate love e.g. charity work? Do they demonstrate joy e.g. being able to trust God during extreme grief/stress? Do they demonstrate God's peace in the middle of personal trials? Do they demonstrate faith in God e.g. trust that God has it all under control? Do they consistently demonstrate unusual kindness, gentleness, self-control that no normal person has?

I have never met anyone who really consistently demonstrates the fruits of the Holy Spirit, though I have met Christians who tell me that God has helped them with one or other of the fruits. But then, I would not expect Christians to be perfect.

Perhaps now it is time for you to try to look at the "I never have felt like I have a relationship with God" glass as half-full rather completely empty? There is a whole area of spiritual danger that you would never experience because you won't EVER measure your christian walk by ecstatic spiritual anointings or feeling God's presence.

It is more than me saying that I have never felt like I had a relationship with God. I am saying that I have no awareness of God responding to me in any way. Some people do speak of ecstatic spiritual anointing, but that was, as you say, not something that I necessarily expected for myself. There are plenty of other less spectacular ways in which God appears to respond to other people, but God did not respond to me in these ways either.

But you will probably say but I have never had any "measurable" spiritual growth. Well in Australia some plants are extremely slow growing. e.g. Xanthorrhoea An inch in a year! That's assuming there's been no bushfire or drought either! Someone inexperienced in botany may never see any signs of growth at all - does it mean that plant is dead though? Are the leaves still firm and green? Have you been in a spiritually stable environment (enough rain, stable soil etc)? Or have you been through a spiritual bushfire and gone backwards because you were not aware of what you had experienced without any sense of pain (feeling remorse, needing to repent etc)?

I agree with the theoretical possibility that I could have some very slow spiritual growth but was unaware of it. But if that had happened, do you not think that by now someone would have pointed it out to me? Or maybe God would have shown me what had been done when I was praying desperately asking for help to hang onto my faith.

There you go - you have just said something that makes that spiritual concept a lot more understandable to me. Do you think a genuine atheist/agnostic is likely to be able to do that?

I have had many years to think about what God might be like. Removing a few man-made constraints can help me to recognise that God can do a lot more than is normally thought. Could a genuine atheist think of something like that? Why not? – I wrote of a God that I can conceive of, not a God that I believe in.

Showing that God is the one who is all-knowing God who knows everything from the beginning of time to the end of time. Therefore He would know if your heart/head is truly sincere if you are seeking Him - whether you ever feel "it" or Him in this life.

I agree than an all-knowing God would know these things. I certainly thought that I was sincere when I was a believer. Now of course I am not so sure.

Everything that I have read of yours so far makes me think that you are sincere. The thing is that you are not the one who is reliable - you are human, you are imperfect, you will never have all the answers - have you looked to God for answers through the Bible?

Yes of course I have looked for answers in the Bible. I have found what ought to be answers, but if they do not come true for me, they are only nice-sounding verses.

Well honestly many people don't have the time these days and/or the ability to think through very difficult issues. The idea that someone may not be able to feel anything is too unbelievable to them. Do they get glazed blank looks on their faces as well?

Very true. People do find it difficult to believe that I lack having emotions. Some, though, believe me when I explain why.

And finally.... a while back I mentioned a sermon my pastor preached on depression and it's on their website now. "Growing with depression" (4/8/11) Oakden Baptist Church - Download free podcast episodes by Oakden Baptist Church on iTunes.
You might like the Lord, help me change series as it's a pretty practical one. They always keep all the Bible in context as well.


I found the download. I will listen to it when I can – it may be a week or so before I have the opportunity.
 
Upvote 0

losthope

Regular Member
Dec 18, 2004
340
15
✟18,607.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
To saralynn, you wrote this:
Alas, in regard to emotion, I am in the same pickle that you are, but, the difference is, I'm not troubled by it. Even when I was filled with faith, I never "felt" so. I assumed it was because I'm intellectually rather than emotionally inclined. British type, you know?

Well, I am British, and the British comment on the fact that I lack emotion. In other words, it is very marked.

Seems to me that your biggest problem is that you are identifying with the ego level of your personality...the one that, in you, can't feel "conviction of guilt". It obviously somehow connotes "failure" on your part, as if you are responsible for the absence of what other people seem to have. Why don't you try identifying with the part of you that is observing your ego, instead of the ego itself? The part of you that is observing the ego may not be "emotional", but, you will see, most likely, that he is much wiser, objective and compassionate than the childish ego with its incessant demands. "I want to feel this way and I can't....waaaaah!"

I must admit that I thought that the part of me that began this thread and has answered the questions and comments in various postings was the part that was observing what happened to me. Certainly not the “waaaaah” aspect. I am investigating a possible explanation for my spiritual experience (or non-experience), not complaining because I did not have the experience.

How about "radical acceptance'? If you've done everything you possibly can to remedy the situation with no success, why not admit that fact and surrender the problem to God? You don't believe we have to "earn" grace, do you?

Surrendering the problem to God is a very sensible suggestion. I do not think I am able to do it now, but I certainly did it in the past. Unfortunately, with no result.

I would not say that we have to earn grace. It is a gift of God. It just seems that for some people it is much easier to gain grace than it is for other people. Over the years there have been times when I have worked hard to try to get myself to the position where I can receive grace. There have been other times when I was not trying at all. So far, it has all been unsuccessful, but I keep trying.

Also, if you prefer to feel comforted in your misery rather than revise your philosophical outlook, you might try reading "Come Be My Light" about Mother Teresa's struggles with doubt caused by the seeming absence of God in her life for many years. Heartbreaking. But, maybe her suffering was needed and recorded so as to provide solace for people like you.

No. There is a huge difference between a temporary apparent absence of God and my situation of never having any response from God. Mother Teresa could look back on what God had done for her in the past. I am unable to do that.

In your posting #93 you responded to my comment that if I started to have emotions, it would convince me that what Christians describe as a response from God would be just an over-reaction to their emotions. You suggested this:
Because the brain responds to stimuli....in this case, the thought of "God"... with emotion doesn't necessarily indicate that the object which produces inspiration is not real. Either 1. Our emotions are self-induced and thus we are happily delusional. God does not exist and we are pathetic creatures who make meaning for ourselves because the alternative is too painful. 2. Our emotions are self-induced and thus we are happy, but not delusional because God exists and this is the way He made us. He uses the fact that our brains produce emotions to serve His ends. 3. God exists and directly affects our emotions by means of "Grace"

I totally agree with you that if a person responds emotionally to a thought of God, it does not necessarily mean that God is not real. That was not what I was trying to say in my statement. In fact it is more complex than that. I am sticking to my statement that if I gained emotions and then thought that I had found God because of some emotional response, then I would know for certain that it was just emotional illusion. I could explain it to you, and I will do this in a private message if you wish, but I do not want discussion of this to hijack this thread.

As I said, I have a "yearning" for God, but, have not felt his presence or had any kind of revelation.

Same here.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

losthope

Regular Member
Dec 18, 2004
340
15
✟18,607.00
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
To razeontherock.

You began by writing about Holy Communion. I am sorry but that section was not very meaningful for me.

You then questioned my statement that gaining a heart of flesh would be a disaster for my search for God. I partially answered this in my response to saralynn above. However I will also say that if God did perform a miracle and I began to feel emotions, then hopefully I would recognise it as a miracle from God and would respond to God accordingly. The problem would occur if I gained emotions for some other reason, or indeed for an unknown reason. Then there would be the worry that I would equate so-called spiritual experiences with overactive emotions, and dismiss them.

I am not against emotions. Far from it. I know that I am missing out on an important feature of normal human life, by not having emotions. I would live to have normal emotions. But in order to have normal emotions, I would need to have normally-acting hormones, and unfortunately my hormones are not acting normally.

You wrote this: Thomas Merton embraced both Buddhist thought, and (of all things) Catholicism. Pretty sure he was a monk. I do think Jesus mastered and exemplified all of Buddhist teaching, on the cross. If there is any appeal of the Buddhist type of approach, this would be a great resource for you to pursue ...

I know that there are people who say that they are both Christian and Buddhist. But I have never wanted to do that myself.
 
Upvote 0