What are the wages of sin?

[RETS]

Oh, OK.

The price I receive for my service of sin is death.

Yes, that makes a lot more sense.

Think about it.

 

[Timothew]

Think about it.

OK.

Paul wrote that the wages or payment or result of sin, disobeying God, is death, dying, being dead. He says nothing about the wages or payment or penalty of sin being eternal torture. However Paul also says the free gift of God is eternal life (instead of death). Paul also doesn't say that the wages of sin is eternal life, which one would need if they were to be eternally tormented in the fire pit of hell.

Think about it.

 

[RETS]

OK.

Paul wrote that the wages or payment or result of sin, disobeying God, is death, dying, being dead. He says nothing about the wages or payment or penalty of sin being eternal torture. However Paul also says the free gift of God is eternal life (instead of death). Paul also doesn't say that the wages of sin is eternal life, which one would need if they were to be eternally tormented in the fire pit of hell.

Think about it.

Except that this post seems to be laboring under the idea that torment in the Pit is somehow "living."

In your job, do you get paid by the guy who's direction you follow, or do you get paid by your local judge?

 

[Timothew]

Except that this post seems to be laboring under the idea that torment in the Pit is somehow "living."

Actually, I don't think they are living. The Apostle Paul said they were dead. It's the eternal conscious torment people who think they are living in eternal conscious torment. Me? I believe the Apostle Paul who said the wages of sin is death.

In your job, do you get paid by the guy who's direction you follow, or do you get paid by your local judge?

What is wages? Payment received for work done, isn't it? The Apostle Paul said the wages of sin is death. Do you think it is something else? Eternal torment perhaps? Are you an Apostle, like the Apostle Paul is?

 

[RETS]

Actually, I don't think they are living. The Apostle Paul said they were dead. It's the eternal conscious torment people who think they are living in eternal conscious torment. Me? I believe the Apostle Paul who said the wages of sin is death.

Where is Satan and his angels spending eternity? The Lake of Fire, correct? And that's going to be something slightly less enjoyable than a cruise, right? And the Bible then says that WHO will be joining that initial group in said Lake?

Life here on Earth is far different from afterlife- Regardless of final destination.

What is wages? Payment received for work done, isn't it? The Apostle Paul said the wages of sin is death.

Exactly. And those who are living in perpetual sin, who have not taken salvation, are DEAD TO CHRIST. Death.

Do you think it is something else? Eternal torment perhaps?

No- The wage of sin IS death. However, the sentence and judgment for a life of unforgiven sin is eternal torment.

One is present realm, one is the next.

Are you an Apostle, like the Apostle Paul is?

What's the definition of "Apostle" again?

 

[Timothew]

Where is Satan and his angels spending eternity? The Lake of Fire, correct? And that's going to be something slightly less enjoyable than a cruise, right? And the Bible then says that WHO will be joining that initial group in said Lake?

Life here on Earth is far different from afterlife- Regardless of final destination.




Exactly. And those who are living in perpetual sin, who have not taken salvation, are DEAD TO CHRIST. Death.




No- The wage of sin IS death. However, the sentence and judgment for a life of unforgiven sin is eternal torment.

One is present realm, one is the next.




What's the definition of "Apostle" again?

I think an Apostle is someone sent to speak for someone else. We are talking about God's Apostles, of which Paul is one and you and I aint.

Anyway this is all way too heavy for me. The Apostle Paul said the wages of sin is death, not eternal torment. I'll just believe what the bible says about it.

 

[RETS]

I think an Apostle is someone sent to speak for someone else. We are talking about God's Apostles, of which Paul is one and you and I aint.

General definition of Apostle is a messenger, while the more NT definition is "one called by Christ." We're all apostles according to the Great Commission under the first definition. As for the second definition, I know Christ called me- How about you?

Anyway this is all way too heavy for me. The Apostle Paul said the wages of sin is death, not eternal torment. I'll just believe what the bible says about it.

Do that- But be sure you know ALL that the Bible says about it.

 

[ThatWhichIsnt]

Its an age old argument. The only thing I'll mention here is this: Do finite beings deserve an infinite fate?

Whether or not they are saved is beside the point, they do not deserve an infinite fate. We do not deserve eternal life but it is a gift from God. We do not deserve to be brutally tortured for the rest of ever, but...(fill in the blank, I will not defend this theology)

I think God will judge us, but torture without end is just cruel.

Sin is a trespass against an eternal God, therefore it warrants an eternal punishment.

 

[Tavita]

Where is Satan and his angels spending eternity? The Lake of Fire, correct?

Incorrect. The LOF is the second death and Paul said that death will be abolished. The devil and his angels will be burned up in the LOF as will the world and the flesh. They are the enemies of God, not man.


There will be no place for death when God is All in All.

 

[Tavita]

Sin is a trespass against an eternal God, therefore it warrants an eternal punishment.

Depends what you mean by eternal. Do you think it means endless?

 

[RETS]

Incorrect. The LOF is the second death and Paul said that death will be abolished. The devil and his angels will be burned up in the LOF as will the world and the flesh. They are the enemies of God, not man.


There will be no place for death when God is All in All.

Revelation 20:10 is pretty clear on that, Tavita.

Some versions say eternity, some say forever, some say forever and ever. The original Greek says for "the ages of the ages." Regardless, it's about time Christians stop subjecting God's words to the letters of Paul.

 

[Lord Herdsetk]

All I can offer is a simple man's view on this.

The dead are judged, either entering into eternal life or the lake of fire, which is the second death. Hell(Hades), the dead, and death will be thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, which again is the second death.

That's in Revelations 20.

In Revelations 21, it says that God wipes away their tears, and there will be no more death, or crying, or mourning, or pain for the old order of things has passed away. The author then explains that he is told to write down what happened.

It seems like the lake of fire is not meant to be a permanent residence for those thrown into it. That is to say, they won't burn for all eternity even if the lake itself does burn for all eternity.

 

[RETS]

All I can offer is a simple man's view on this.

The dead are judged, either entering into eternal life or the lake of fire, which is the second death. Hell(Hades), the dead, and death will be thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, which again is the second death.

That's in Revelations 20.

In Revelations 21, it says that God wipes away their tears, and there will be no more death, or crying, or mourning, or pain for the old order of things has passed away. The author then explains that he is told to write down what happened.

It seems like the lake of fire is not meant to be a permanent residence for those thrown into it. That is to say, they won't burn for all eternity even if the lake itself does burn for all eternity.

I note that the verse you're speaking of does not directly refer to those in the Lake of Fire. Nor does it say "all men."

Just an observation.

 

[Lord Herdsetk]

I note that the verse you're speaking of does not directly refer to those in the Lake of Fire. Nor does it say "all men."

Just an observation.

Can you specify which verse you're noting? I assume you mean Revelations 21:4

"He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."

You could say that it does not speak directly to those in the lake of fire. I could say that those in the lake of fire have already been wiped out in the second death. You say it doesn't reference all men. I say it doesn't exclude certain men. Its kind of open to interpretation here.

Those not in the book of life enter the lake of death. That's the interpretation that makes the most sense to me. I am still open to other interpretations though.

 

[RETS]

Can you specify which verse you're noting? I assume you mean Revelations 21:4

"He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."

You could say that it does not speak directly to those in the lake of fire. I could say that those in the lake of fire have already been wiped out in the second death. You say it doesn't reference all men. I say it doesn't exclude certain men. Its kind of open to interpretation here.

Those not in the book of life enter the lake of death. That's the interpretation that makes the most sense to me. I am still open to other interpretations though.

You are correct in your assumption.

Hades and Sheol are tossed into the Lake of Fire- And that is the second death. However, note that nothing is said of the destruction of the LoF.

There is no possible way for God to contradict Himself, right? So then it is WE who must be wrong in our definition of "death."

 

[Lord Herdsetk]

You are correct in your assumption.

Hades and Sheol are tossed into the Lake of Fire- And that is the second death. However, note that nothing is said of the destruction of the LoF.

There is no possible way for God to contradict Himself, right? So then it is WE who must be wrong in our definition of "death."

Yeah, it doesn't mention anything about the destruction of the lake of fire.

However, it does explicitly mention that there will be no more death, and it also says,twice, that the lake of fire is the second death.

I guess the question is, do you think the lake of fire will be literal or not, and if you do, does it matter if it burns forever? There will be no more death, or pain, or crying, or pain, at the very least for those whose names are in the book of life, after the white throne judgement.

Basically I'm trying to say that just because the lake burns forever, that doesn't mean that the people in it will burn forever.

 

[RETS]

Yeah, it doesn't mention anything about the destruction of the lake of fire.

However, it does explicitly mention that there will be no more death, and it also says,twice, that the lake of fire is the second death.

I guess the question is, do you think the lake of fire will be literal or not, and if you do, does it matter if it burns forever? There will be no more death, or pain, or crying, or pain, at the very least for those whose names are in the book of life, after the white throne judgement.

Basically I'm trying to say that just because the lake burns forever, that doesn't mean that the people in it will burn forever.

Again- "They shall be tormented day and night for the ages of the ages" does NOT sound open to interpretation. Yet at the same time, as you said, the LoF is mentioned as being "the second death." Or- Is it? It appears that being thrown into it is the second death.

What do you and I think of when we think of death? A ceasing to exist? A lack of presence? How about separation?

So then, is it likely that as I suggested earlier, those who advocate annihilation are not seeing what is being said here properly?


It boils down to this: Either God is a liar, or He is not. If He is, what are we doing? If He is not, then we are wrong.

 

[Tavita]

Revelation 20:10 is pretty clear on that, Tavita.

Some versions say eternity, some say forever, some say forever and ever. The original Greek says for "the ages of the ages." Regardless, it's about time Christians stop subjecting God's words to the letters of Paul.

And the alternative is to subject everything to the Revelation of John?
When are christians going to realize that Paul was given the FULL revelation of God? The Revelation of John is not the full revelation of the end of all things, read 1 Corinthians 15. The Revelation of John is the Unveiling of Christ within.

RETS, the last enemy to be destroyed is death, and the LOF is the second death. First, second, third, doesn't matter, death is death.

 

[Lord Herdsetk]

Again- "They shall be tormented day and night for the ages of the ages" does NOT sound open to interpretation. Yet at the same time, as you said, the LoF is mentioned as being "the second death." Or- Is it? It appears that being thrown into it is the second death.

What do you and I think of when we think of death? A ceasing to exist? A lack of presence? How about separation?

So then, is it likely that as I suggested earlier, those who advocate annihilation are not seeing what is being said here properly?


It boils down to this: Either God is a liar, or He is not. If He is, what are we doing? If He is not, then we are wrong.

Would you not say "Either God is a liar or He is not"?

You might as well be asking, "Is God black or white?"

He's neither. He's not that easily understood or we wouldn't be having this conversation. I wouldn't jump to either extreme so quickly, as you'll find that both platforms will probably crumble beneath you. This is a delicate topic and we shouldn't be focused on reigning down righteous judgement on each other over a vision that someone had that we both don't completely understand.

Now, let's look at Revelations 14 to see what it actually says

Revelations 14:9-11
A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand,they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

There are a few interesting points I should address.

1. It says "if anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, they too will drink the wine of God's fury, etc etc etc." This torment forever is only being mentioned for this group of people. In other words, everyone who has ever existed up until this point will not suffer forever as no one has accepted the mark of the beast on their forehead or hand yet, if we're taking it literally.

2. It says the smoke of their torment will rise forever. Is this the same forever that Sodom and Gomorrah experienced? Is this the same forever that Jonah, when in the belly of the sea monster, prayed that the earth with her bars was
about him forever?

If aion really means an age or undetermined period of time here, it makes sense. The smoke of their torment will rise forever, just as Sodom and Gomorrah burned until they were no more as Jonah was held captive in the belly of a whale until he was released. So what about those following the beast not having any rest day or night?

"There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.” 12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus."

Could it not mean that those following the beast will be living in utter chaos under its regime, or that God will be punishing those in the final days until they are dead?

3. I've always wondered why we get new bodies when Jesus comes back for us. Why is that? I mean if we're with him in paradise already, what's the point? Are we not already conscious with him in heaven when we die?

If we are given new bodies (as our old bodies have passed away), wouldn't that mean that unbelievers would be given new bodies too, seeing as they are burning forever? Would their new bodies be incorruptible as well to endure the eternal punishment?

I'm asking these questions not because I want them answered, but because it raises them if God is willing to torture people forever. Why would God do this, what does God gain by doing this, how does this teach people any sort of lesson if they have no chance of getting out of the lake of fire, wouldn't this make God a sick minded god?

DO NOT assume I am making God out to be a fuddy-duddy. I believe there will come a time when all of us are judged according to what we have done. However, I think the judgement should be just, not brutal.

Here are some links that go far more in depth that i ever could on Revelations 14.

et08b - What does Revelation 14:10 mean? - et08b.htm

http://www.eternalgod.org/qapdf/922

 

[Timothew]

Sin is a trespass against an eternal God, therefore it warrants an eternal punishment.

I believe that death is an eternal punishment. Unless one is rasied to eternal life.